234 replies to this topic

[squirreI]

Oh sure, I know exactly how the multiplier works. Given the base drop of the box is 3%, the 20% of that would be 0.6% -so much wow! 3% from 3.6%! amazing!!

 

Is it negligible? Yes.

Is 0.6% high? No.

Do you supply a guild? No.

Do you hunt those boxes? No.

 

Would you care to explain, what is "too many supplies"?

I believe that, It's always not enough. Assuming that, you are not behind the Emperium for 120 minutes, and actually joins the fight and use the supplies you are given. 

 

As I said, your point will never be valid because you haven't even supplied a guild nor hunt those boxes.

 

(Maybe you can come back here after you farm those boxes and supply your guild even once)

 

I think you just need to reread my posts about 50 more times. I'll only be saying the same things. But here goes nothing.. Let me try to explain it a different way that is still the same in so many ways.

 

If you get 20 boxes from a 3% drop, a 3.6% drop would probably give you 24 boxes instead, 4 boxes out of 20 sounds nice right? I would say that's significant. Your definition of negligible seems to be 'not what I want', whereas I say there's a significant change in hunting time (-16.67%). So maybe that will reduce 5 hours from 40. Again, that's not what you want. You want 40 hours to be reduced to 20 hours.

 

One other example.. Why wear exp shoes when leeching characters and leveling? Isn't 10% like beyond negligible? Answer that for yourself.

 

I'm not going to talk about having too many supplies. There comes a point where you can have too many supplies (you might be spamming acid bombs on banshees), but besides that, you can win that argument.

Edited by squirreI, 30 May 2014 - 11:16 AM.

[b0neh34d]

how much speeds will cost in npc?

 

[monica12314]

I think you just need to reread my posts about 50 more times. I'll only be saying the same things. But here goes nothing.. Let me try to explain it a different way that is still the same in so many ways.

 

If you get 20 boxes from a 3% drop, a 3.6% drop would probably give you 24 boxes instead, 4 boxes out of 20 sounds nice right? I would say that's significant. Your definition of negligible seems to be 'not what I want', whereas I say there's a significant change in hunting time (-16.67%). So maybe that will reduce 5 hours from 40. Again, that's not what you want. You want 40 hours to be reduced to 20 hours.

 

One other example.. Why wear exp shoes when leeching characters and leveling? Isn't 10% like beyond negligible? Answer that for yourself.

 

I'm not going to talk about having too many supplies. There comes a point where you can have too many supplies (you might be spamming acid bombs on banshees), but besides that, you can win that argument.

 

You're so funny indeed.

 

If you get 20 boxes from a 3% drop, a 3.6% drop would probably give you 24 boxes instead, 4 boxes out of 20 sounds nice right?

 

 

Unfortunately , It does not work that way. Yeah, the number is right. But also keep in mind that it's a chance per kill.

3% and 3.6% chance for every kill is negligible.

 

It does not mean the if I kill GTB 5000 times, I will get a card. maybe yes , maybe no.

 

I can kill GTB once and it might drop a card. 

 

 You want 40 hours to be reduced to 20 hours.

 

Yes, Why not? It's nice to spend sometime doing some other RAGNAROK thing.

 

One other example.. Why wear exp shoes when leeching characters and leveling? Isn't 10% like beyond negligible? Answer that for yourself.

 

Don't go full retard. We are talking about a drop rate, with a base drop of 3%. 

You can't compare it with exp. I don't have to explain my self here. Stop dragging the original topic into a different aspect.

 

I'm not going to talk about having too many supplies. There comes a point where you can have too many supplies (you might be spamming acid bombs on banshees), but besides that, you can win that argument.

 

I can acid bomb any monster that I want, but it does not mean that I have too many supplies.

 

ooops, maybe start supplying your guild and hunt those boxes now.

Edited by monica12314, 30 May 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[Xellie]

Squirrel is allowed to say he's smarter because he IS smarter than most people lol.

[monica12314]

I guess I'm not smart enough. ='<

[Xellie]

I'm going to come at the forums with numbers and stats on item collection in a sec.

[Godless]

My only issue with this is Temp players that contribute nothing at all to this server besides woe. So a 35-40 man guild, where as 5 people in the entire guild contribute to getting supplies for the guild, shouldn't it take a decent amount of time for them to hunt those boxes? I'm not saying the rates shouldn't be increased because I've done hunting in GD multiple times and the rates are pretty -_-ty even when its HE Gum and VIP, but I don't want this server to keep heading in the direction I see it going now, continually catering to the players that just want to woe. For Bio 3 only: how about having a turn in like every 200 kills per monster would be 40 supply boxes? I think it would encourage players to actively participate in something challenging along with great exp as long as your party isn't dying. My honest opinion about how the server is right now, is everything is being handed to the small people that are trying to manage the server, for the people that don't want participate in any kind of activity because it's downright boring. Handing those people everything they need, I don't think is the right way to go about things. Engaging players in party activity or things they haven't done, while helping contribute to the overall needs of the guild is something that this server desperately needs to revive any kind of play outside of woe. 

Edited by Godless, 30 May 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

I actually like the bio turn in for gsb idea. They should either fix hw spawn (best choice) or do bio 3 ti for gsb.

[Xellie]

My only issue with this is Temp players that contribute nothing at all to this server besides woe. So a 35-40 man guild, where as 5 people in the entire guild contribute to getting supplies for the guild, shouldn't it take a decent amount of time for them to hunt those boxes? I'm not saying the rates shouldn't be increased because I've done hunting in GD multiple times and the rates are pretty -_-ty even when its HE Gum and VIP, but I don't want this server to keep heading in the direction I see it going now, continually catering to the players that just want to woe. For Bio 3 only: how about having a turn in like every 200 kills per monster would be 40 supply boxes? I think it would encourage players to actively participate in something challenging along with great exp as long as your party isn't dying. My honest opinion about how the server is right now, is everything is being handed to the small people that are trying to manage the server, for the people that don't want participate in any kind of activity because it's downright boring. Handing those people everything they need, I don't think is the right way to go about things. Engaging players in party activity or things they haven't done, while helping contribute to the overall needs of the guild is something that this server desperately needs to revive any kind of play outside of woe. 

 

As one of those people;

 

I love WoE. I probably would lose 80% of my RO enjoyment without it. BUT. I do want to play the rest of the game. I have guildmembers who plead and beg with me to run ET, take them MVPing, do SS, do dragons, bio parties you name it. and I want to.

 

The problem is those of us that are active are working on the WoE situation and don't have time to do the things I want to.

 

So the more supplies thing is simple. Make it really freakin' easy so that the players who are active can do other things and increase player presence in the rest of the game and/or make the rest of the game provide those WoE supplies so we're forced into the world with the other players.

 

I would pvp in gd all day for boxes, but people don't ... well they just don't.
 

[Godless]

As one of those people;

 

I love WoE. I probably would lose 80% of my RO enjoyment without it. BUT. I do want to play the rest of the game. I have guildmembers who plead and beg with me to run ET, take them MVPing, do SS, do dragons, bio parties you name it. and I want to.

 

The problem is those of us that are active are working on the WoE situation and don't have time to do the things I want to.

 

So the more supplies thing is simple. Make it really freakin' easy so that the players who are active can do other things and increase player presence in the rest of the game and/or make the rest of the game provide those WoE supplies so we're forced into the world with the other players.

 

I would pvp in gd all day for boxes, but people don't ... well they just don't.
 

I do believe that is an issue, that you have to put in all the work for the people that don't want to contribute. Right now I believe it's just the monotonous routine for four hours hunting the same monsters repetitively and without any challenge whatsoever. I believe that if we put in things like gsb turn ins at Bio 3 that incorporate a challenge with rewards to helping the woe situation, that people would generally want to get involved with hunting supplies, while at the same time meet there own demands as an individual player who might want to level characters(maybe bio 3 mvps for dem CK's) or anything of that nature! I DO NOT however, want to reward larger guilds with more boxes, vs less effort because temp players don't care to get involved with RO.

Edited by Godless, 30 May 2014 - 04:04 PM.

[Xellie]

We keep in mind that not everyone can help every week. But I should really shoo some of my guildmembers over here to read this. They have no qualms in expecting me to vip multiple accounts or provide gum.

 

And they complain that GD is boring. Which it is when it becomes a weekly chore. I don't blame them at all. The entitledness annoys me and it might tear my guild apart but at this stage I'm really beyond caring because it ruins the enjoyment I get from WoE too.

 

Essentially we have 4 and a half days to hunt/buy all our crap for WoE. (to make time for potting and stocking and supplying then WoE itself) We can't all use the GD at once because that slows things down, the market hardly has anything on it.

 

Optimally 23-26hours of time is required to get the boxes, with no interruptions, breaks, other people in GD, if rng is good. (it usually works out at a lot more) meaning 6~7 hours a day in GD. Split between the people that can do it. (the 40 hours includes other crap like potting, speed pots)

 

It means we have no time to do anything else in game at all.

 

And who wants to play a game that is not fun. The excess supplies our competition have are NOT going to go away. I hear they used 120k slims this WoE SE alone, which is more than VH hands out.

[Viri]

You're so funny indeed.


Unfortunately , It does not work that way. Yeah, the number is right. But also keep in mind that it's a chance per kill.
3% and 3.6% chance for every kill is negligible.

It does not mean the if I kill GTB 5000 times, I will get a card. maybe yes , maybe no.

I can kill GTB once and it might drop a card.

Yes, Why not? It's nice to spend sometime doing some other RAGNAROK thing.

Don't go full retard. We are talking about a drop rate, with a base drop of 3%.
You can't compare it with exp. I don't have to explain my self here. Stop dragging the original topic into a different aspect.

I can acid bomb any monster that I want, but it does not mean that I have too many supplies.

ooops, maybe start supplying your guild and hunt those boxes now.

Use half the supplies and it will take half as long to gather!

[Sabaton]

Use half the supplies and it will take half as long to gather!

Just dismiss half of your guildmates.

Edited by Sabaton, 31 May 2014 - 06:34 AM.

[Flack]

I do believe that is an issue, that you have to put in all the work for the people that don't want to contribute. Right now I believe it's just the monotonous routine for four hours hunting the same monsters repetitively and without any challenge whatsoever. I believe that if we put in things like gsb turn ins at Bio 3 that incorporate a challenge with rewards to helping the woe situation, that people would generally want to get involved with hunting supplies, while at the same time meet there own demands as an individual player who might want to level characters(maybe bio 3 mvps for dem CK's) or anything of that nature! I DO NOT however, want to reward larger guilds with more boxes, vs less effort because temp players don't care to get involved with RO.

 

 

This is great I and pretty much sums up my feelings.  Personally I think the GMs should not allow supply boxes to be gained outside of GD as its was implemented as a method to supplement farming supplies for guilds that took castles.  Still if you had to implement something outside of GD I would say something like the above would probably be a good start.

 

I completely agree with this

 

I DO NOT however, want to reward larger guilds with more boxes, vs less effort because temp players don't care to get involved with RO.

 

We keep in mind that not everyone can help every week. But I should really shoo some of my guildmembers over here to read this. They have no qualms in expecting me to vip multiple accounts or provide gum.

 

And they complain that GD is boring. Which it is when it becomes a weekly chore. I don't blame them at all. The entitledness annoys me and it might tear my guild apart but at this stage I'm really beyond caring because it ruins the enjoyment I get from WoE too.

 

Essentially we have 4 and a half days to hunt/buy all our crap for WoE. (to make time for potting and stocking and supplying then WoE itself) We can't all use the GD at once because that slows things down, the market hardly has anything on it.

 

Optimally 23-26hours of time is required to get the boxes, with no interruptions, breaks, other people in GD, if rng is good. (it usually works out at a lot more) meaning 6~7 hours a day in GD. Split between the people that can do it. (the 40 hours includes other crap like potting, speed pots)

 

It means we have no time to do anything else in game at all.

 

And who wants to play a game that is not fun. The excess supplies our competition have are NOT going to go away. I hear they used 120k slims this WoE SE alone, which is more than VH hands out.

 

Keep in mind the amount of work needed to be done is proportional to the size of guild.  I assume you are calculating 1 hour of work per week per person who you have to supply. 

If that is the case or around that then you are supplying a 40 person guild in your example. 

If you have have 40 people log on for 4 hours in a two day span why can they not log on for 1 hour the other 4.5 days to make sure they can enjoy those 4 hours every week to the standard they are used to?

 

What you are griping about is an in guild problem and not a sever problem.  I will say that my guild has plenty of supplies.  The supply box adaption done several months ago was great and completely cut down the time to hunt supplies.  Since then I've never once been concerned about a shortage of supplies.  It works the system is not broken and the server isn't suffering.

 

The answer to your problem about having to hunt for 40 hours a week is easily solved by just not hunting for 40 hours per week.  The sever should not have to adjust to your guild to make it so you can continue to WoE the way you have been while doing less work.  See Godless post which explains this perfectly.

 

I hope the GM's are smart enough to realize there are a few hundred players that participate outside of WoE who are fine with how the server WoE supply situation currently is.

[Xellie]

This is great I and pretty much sums up my feelings.  Personally I think the GMs should not allow supply boxes to be gained outside of GD as its was implemented as a method to supplement farming supplies for guilds that took castles.  Still if you had to implement something outside of GD I would say something like the above would probably be a good start.

 

I completely agree with this

 

I DO NOT however, want to reward larger guilds with more boxes, vs less effort because temp players don't care to get involved with RO.

 

 

Keep in mind the amount of work needed to be done is proportional to the size of guild.  I assume you are calculating 1 hour of work per week per person who you have to supply. 

If that is the case or around that then you are supplying a 40 person guild in your example. 

If you have have 40 people log on for 4 hours in a two day span why can they not log on for 1 hour the other 4.5 days to make sure they can enjoy those 4 hours every week to the standard they are used to?

 

What you are griping about is an in guild problem and not a sever problem.  I will say that my guild has plenty of supplies.  The supply box adaption done several months ago was great and completely cut down the time to hunt supplies.  Since then I've never once been concerned about a shortage of supplies.  It works the system is not broken and the server isn't suffering.

 

The answer to your problem about having to hunt for 40 hours a week is easily solved by just not hunting for 40 hours per week.  The sever should not have to adjust to your guild to make it so you can continue to WoE the way you have been while doing less work.  See Godless post which explains this perfectly.

 

I hope the GM's are smart enough to realize there are a few hundred players that participate outside of WoE who are fine with how the server WoE supply situation currently is.

 

Make the strong stronger and make it impossible for new / returning guilds to compete. Very very wise. Sound logic. Flawless, I see no issue with it at all. Maybe the god item quest should only be accessible to those with god items too.

 

You clearly didn't read what I said about multiple players in GD at once slowing down farming. Read before you criticize bb
 

[Ralis]

We're forgetting again that the time we spend down in GD hunting for boxes is on HE Gum. HE Gum should be a luxury, not a necessity. Because of the current rate of boxes, the game is literally pay to PARTICIPATE.

[Xellie]

Also don't you guys harp on about adjusting the server to suit people's needs #50manseals

[Ralis]

Nah Xellie, we're a larger guild so we have to pay for more supplies, but we don't get benefits like being able to roll the sea- oh wait we've already done that ten times now.

[squirreI]

You're so funny indeed.

 

 

Unfortunately , It does not work that way. Yeah, the number is right. But also keep in mind that it's a chance per kill.

3% and 3.6% chance for every kill is negligible.

 

It does not mean the if I kill GTB 5000 times, I will get a card. maybe yes , maybe no.

 

I can kill GTB once and it might drop a card. 

 

Yes, Why not? It's nice to spend sometime doing some other RAGNAROK thing.

 

Don't go full retard. We are talking about a drop rate, with a base drop of 3%. 

You can't compare it with exp. I don't have to explain my self here. Stop dragging the original topic into a different aspect.

 

I can acid bomb any monster that I want, but it does not mean that I have too many supplies.

 

ooops, maybe start supplying your guild and hunt those boxes now.

 

 

Unfortunately , It does not work that way. Yeah, the number is right. But also keep in mind that it's a chance per kill.

3% and 3.6% chance for every kill is negligible.

You argue that drops are chance (I am completely aware and will comment more on that) and claim that it supports 20% being negligible? Pretty weird.

 

 

Don't go full retard. We are talking about a drop rate, with a base drop of 3%. 

You can't compare it with exp. I don't have to explain my self here. Stop dragging the original topic into a different aspect.

Yes you can compare it with exp. I'm also going to compare this with damage dealt in a bit. You can also compare it to medals won doing hugel races.

 

I believe that as kills approach infinity, the number of items you get from these monsters will become closer and closer to the average. Many examples can be given in an attempt to prove this theory. First lest's take a coin flip. If you flip 1 coin you may get 1 heads or 1 tails. Does that mean that every time you will get that same flip? More and more flips you do the closer the determined chance will be to 50%.

 

I'll give an example on damage.

I decided to ice wall 4 beelzebubs all on the same cell and kill them all at once with sg. We did not have a greeder at all, so how would we pick up the loots if one survived a minute after the first one died? I knew that the damage taken between all of the beelzebubs would be virtually the same and that they would all die at about the same time. The damage of each hit of sg can vary from max damage being twice as much as minimum damage. It doesn't matter, the number of hits to kill them was 100+. At that point you don't have to worry about killing one way before the other.

 

The damage of every firewall is also virtually the same.

 

Something specific you can refer to is the binomial distribution. This for sure applies to the number of boxes dropped out of x number of kills. The main point of what I am making here is that you can treat drops, damage, anything that has to do with chance the same as things that are set, like exp.

 

Oh and I agree with the only spending 20 hours instead part. I think it's fine. I just think people should be aware of the fact that changing it to that will double the amount of supplies on the server. (should people farm the same amount. I know that they will farm less, but anyone who's going to farm just as much will get double.)

 

Oh and please explain yourself. I want to see you prove me wrong. I'm not an expert on this stuff. Yet.

Edited by squirreI, 31 May 2014 - 04:07 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

And we have a winner!!!! If only more posts had 20% of the intellectual effort put into them... But that would be negligible?

[Xellie]

The extra/leftovers could also help support the economy.

 

Keep in mind that when we hunt stems or spores for example, is it 100% (or 200% for some classes if we wanna get smart), starsand too.  One hour of hunting in GD (with this buff, on average with rng) will provide around 2k sands an hour under the same conditions(no vip, but yes gum). Or just enough sand for less than one person.  (potters have success rates!)

 

The rates I am quoting there are for god item'd LKs in Luina GD. With gum, vip that increases dramatically to an average of 5k sands an hour, I dread to think what the avarage is without gum.

 

Gum should not even be part of this equation.

 

Right now supply is super biased towards those in Luina - no other GD comes close and not having availability outside of GD in a reasonable amount of time I believe is quite detrimental.

Edited by Xellie, 31 May 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[Viri]

You could just play more instead of using gum...

[Xellie]

You could just play more instead of using gum...

 

Yeah, good idea, why didn't I think of that?

 

Having the wss turn in alone would solve all this!

 

Here you go, here's how unreasonable my expectations are.

2k slims on average per player

that's like

• 800 per chem/wiz
• 1.5k per champ
• 3~4k for potion pitcher, paladin, LK.
• 2k for a sinx.
• 1.5-2k per scholar dependent on role
• 2k per performer

In reality the average per player is more than this. I think 2k pots per player per WoE is a reasonable expectation if involved in combat the whole time. Unable to see into the future we generally provide for a medium-heavy WoE in advance. If we know it's going to be a heavy WoE - it goes higher than this. We have an emergency bank of 30k slims for this very situation that is never part of our weekly hunt.

 

https://docs.google....DaU8/edit#gid=0

 

I'd also like to share this

 

Because the way the items come out of the box are unbalanced, we do actually have 180K+ of some items... like mermaid hearts, fabrics (which hardly sell), zenorc fangs, crystal fragments. If the items were balanced better as in, the items that are used by one freakin' class in low numbers didn't outnumber items EVERYONE uses, the boxes would be hugely better.

 

Also: Help with edp,converts, blues would be a fine thing.

Edited by Xellie, 31 May 2014 - 08:23 PM.

[Viri]

so make everyone make due with half that. It's not like anyone else can hunt supplies faster or more efficiently it's a level playing field.

[Xellie]

so make everyone make due with half that. It's not like anyone else can hunt supplies faster or more efficiently it's a level playing field.

 

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