25 replies to this topic

[flukeSG2]

Well apparently the latest mystery nerf rangers have gotten is the reduction in our defenses.  Prior to DW I know I was 76.x% defense with 10k points.  My points are exactly the same as prior but now my defense % has been dropped by 3%+.  What the hell?!  Why are Rangers getting the shaft so much?

[xLuc]

The fact that a ranged dps has 76% defense worries me more...

[flukeSG2]

The fact that a ranged dps has 76% defense worries me more...

 

+20 gears, this game is "balanced" around everyone having max defense.  It also shouldn't worry you since our damage was nerfed a few patches ago as well.  Like I said, the Dev's freaking hate ranger class.

Edited by flukeSG2, 01 July 2014 - 11:48 PM.

[VuoriDevine]

Dps shouldnt have that "high" defense, you're not a tank yoh.
ITs part of a balance that we all should have, High Def=Tank, im ok if they are fixing the roles.

Edited by VuoriDevine, 02 July 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[Fluidz]

So what about the Tanks with high Damage dealing skills? kthxbai.

[StormHaven]

Dps shouldnt have that "high" defense, you're not a tank yoh.
ITs part of a balance that we all should have, High Def=Tank, im ok if they are fixing the roles.

 

and Off tanks shouldn't have high def and high damage~ It's 1 or the other ;D you're only there to hold secondary aggro not play main tank or main damage dealer

[VuoriDevine]

Let me re quote myself.

It's part of a balance that we all should have, im ok if they are fixing the roles.

+tanks will always have top threat regardless of the dmg yoh. 300% generation.
Coff.. coff..

Spoiler

Warrior is a damage dealer

Edited by VuoriDevine, 02 July 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Meirin]

Frankly, the devs are probably still riding on the idea that Rangers are OP. Given how they only "partially" listen to us, they probably still think that we need to be nerfed. I agree that we are not tanks and should not have tanking abilities, but I don't think that we should be basically naked either. I am more concerned about our damage output than our defense, although both are obviously important.

I like the fact that they fixed the crafting bug, but I am disappointed that they did not fix anything else like the balancing issues. Really, I don't know why they don't balance things on curves that only really difference by various offsets.

[Baddiez]

Dps shouldnt have that "high" defense, you're not a tank yoh.
ITs part of a balance that we all should have, High Def=Tank, im ok if they are fixing the roles.

Assumption.

Edited by Baddiez, 02 July 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[Meirin]

Yeah, poor defense = lots of death = players quitting. I agt that our defense should not be as high as tanks' defense, but it should not be that much lower. We still need PvP and PvE capabilities.

[4458130508113924833]

Defense is capped at 75%.

Tank classes reach this naturally most of the time. 

Light armor classes are around 50% defense rate.

And cloth armor classes are around 30% defense rate.

That seems balanced to me. Having all classes cap defense kind of defeats the purpose of tanks and unbalances the game horribly. The issue here is that warriors and knights can deal more damage than DPS classes thanks to battle tactics not having a cap. Beastmasters and Monks are slightly better balanced (arguably since monk can double crit gfist on demand, but that's only useful for pvp, and Beastmaster can self heal pretty often) deal slightly the same DPS than DPS clases, and that's the problem. If you balance the game having in mind that everyone has capped defense you leave out 90% of the game's population and we see how that's working.

Edited by 4458130508113924833, 02 July 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[Meirin]

Alright. I don't want to be rude here; I get that last part, but I don't understand the rest there. I can't tell if the first part is sarcasm or what. The middle I can't tell what is being said because the sentences run into each other. I apologize if I am being overly blunt. I just don't know how to respond exactly...

[4458130508113924833]

Alright. I don't want to be rude here; I get that last part, but I don't understand the rest there. I can't tell if the first part is sarcasm or what. The middle I can't tell what is being said because the sentences run into each other. I apologize if I am being overly blunt. I just don't know how to respond exactly...

 

tl;dr: Defense and damage output should be inversely proportional, taking into account survivality skills, DPS classes shouldn't cap defense, Tanks shouldn't outdps DPS classes, and the game shouldn't revolve around PVP. And refining is retarded.

[PandeeChio]

Bugging in~

1) Sad that rangers def is lower ;(

2) Rather every class lose that 3% would be nicer except srsly low def classes. IMO def shouldnt be that high yet considerin that the game is still evolving (altho in wrong way...) but there should be space to get better with newer and newer gears etc...

@Off Topic

3) Warriors are tanks specd in dealing damage (and mob control)
Where as Knights should still be having easily higher threath and natural high def without any boosts and warriors def should be lower with defender against knights.

4) Itself damage (In my oppinion) is way too high on every class.

Altho swordsman skill "Battle Tactics" does overbuff itself critical damage (altho some classes can overpass this damage easily butbthats another story)

Sure a cap would be nice (like500) or nerf dmg on all classes 40%+ or bla bla bla...

@Back to topic

5) Pushing aside itself damage problems and on to the class itself...
(My view of rangers)

"Rangers are ranged damage dealers who excelss in mobility and high damage (altho tanks shouldn't overpass this damage unless ranger is undergeared) with a backside of having low defense (But not extremely low like with casters)"

So looking at that and looking at OP all i can think of "e.e wtf it shouldn't be even possible to reach that high" but well...it's gravity *Shrugs*

And last but not least.

6) Rangers damage should be high(Not highest but 3rd while wiz is 2nd and rogue 1st).
So after nerfing dmg first, And now defense...honestly its good in my oppinion "Good keep it up" but it should've happened to OTHER classes too! So bad bad ;/.

So conclusion = "WTF GRAVITY STOP NERFING RANGERS INTO...INTO...FREE AGI BUFFS!? STOP THE NERFING >:I AND DO IT TO OTHER CLASSES TOO!! (althonrangers had cat days whilebowning colo all time till DoT nerf...which reminds me...when are DoTs buffed o.o?

Edited by PandeeChio, 02 July 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[TifaValentine]

Nerfs and buffs "just because" are never good imo. What needs to be done is balancing considering all classes, and not individual nerfs and buffs so randomly. That's where the real problem is. You can't buff a class without considering how it affects others; same applies for nerfing, you shouldn't nerf a class and leave them defenseless/weaker against others who still need a serious nerf. We need balance ACROSS all classes.

 

DPS shouldn't have so high defense, I agree. However, "tanks" also shouldn't have as much dps as pure dps dedicated classes. Do not forget: dps=/=threat; tanks usually have threat-generation skills that allow them to lure the enemy to them regardless of their actual dps numbers, which is why threat meters were never meant to be an accurate measure of dps. Remember the time where sorcerers had amazingly overpowered heals? Remember how they would steal aggro from tanks with just a single heal, even if they didn't deal damage at all? Yep, healing spells also draw aggro, they didn't need high dps. For that reason tanks don't necessarily need to have highest dps to hold high threat. Yes, warriors can be dps too. But we shouldn't have a class with high defense like a tank AND high dps like a pure dps class. The idea is usually one or the other, or a hybrid where you have a bit of each. Exceptions exist, but they shouldn't be a standard for all players of said class. 

 

If we consider what the game is nowadays, honestly... having everyone with high defense seems the only way to go. Especially if you want to even stand a small chance against the usual "oneshotting" that happens SO often in pvp instances. You get a "tanky class" (be it dps warrior/knight or not, cannot be denied that theyrestill tanky classes) that not only has much more hp than you, and supposedly has to have more defense than you, but can ALSO oneshot you and crit way higher than a dps class in same conditions. I don't think that's "right" or "normal" either. If you nerf rangers' defense, then why not also nerf tank extreme dps? Of course, if I play a pure dps spec'd warrior/knight it's fine to have good dps, but I'd be lacking the strong defenses of a tanky spec. It's broken to have all of it; higher defense, high vit, high crit/dps.... if that's a normal thing, then why bother playing a pure dps class that lacks defense and doesnt even do as much crit/dps? Ranged class or not, rangers are a pretty severly nerfed and broken class atm. And I don't wanna hear complaints and QQing about "hurr but they hurt meh with PA and multishot before when they were op QQ", because seriously...grow up and let that crap go -_-'

 

[flukeSG2]

Thing is Natsu, most Rangers are ditching the AGI buff since it's really worthless anymore.  So we aren't even walking AGI buffs anymore haha.  The second thing is, WHY AREN'T THESE IN PATCH NOTES?!  Are they trying to hide the "balance" they are doing?!  They havent' even explained our reduction in PvP damage yet.

 

Oh and, I'm not sure how basic gears this affects us, all I can see is a loss of 3% in defense.  Which I can easily reach the cap if I finish +20'ing my gear again.  I only had 3 pieces +'d.  So whatever this is, is still stupid, no matter how you look at it.  If they are nerfing us, they did a bad job.  If this is a bug...consider it reported I guess.

Edited by flukeSG2, 02 July 2014 - 07:40 PM.

[StormHaven]

Tbh ranger's should be highest DPS because we have 0 defensive or healing skills when you consider all the DPS classes.
The more healing and defense(and defensive skills) you have the less damage and dps you should have.

[4458130508113924833]

Tbh ranger's should be highest DPS because we have 0 defensive or healing skills when you consider all the DPS classes.
The more healing and defense(and defensive skills) you have the less damage and dps you should have.

 

 

What about Wizards? They have even less defense, they have one emergency button and their healing skill is quite sub-par. They are also worse at kiting than rangers. Both classes finisher/burst kind of sucks, but they can at least crit it on demand and they have a very powerful DOT. Ranger has a lot more mobility.

You should also take into account that they're both ranged classes, tho', maybe that's why Assassins and Rogues have healing skills, light armored, but melee. Wizard is ranged, but it's less armored, so gets more survivality, this might be what the devs had in mind when they designed them but went horribly wrong. 

Also what kind of DPS, since it can be dealt in a sustained manner, that works best for PVE, or in a burst kind of way that works better for PVP.

[PandeeChio]

Rangers damage shouldn't over pass wizards.

Wizards on the other hand isn't

1)Mobile

2)High defense

3)Healing skill over time isnt something to trust.

Rangers own defense is double of wizards.

Rangers own Mobility is quadruple of Wizards.

So does that mean Rangers damage should be highest too?

Thats like saying you need spammable full heal skill...nevermind...

And what tifa said Totally agree.

Balance doesn't come with invidual nerfs.

Conclusion: High damage comes with a risk and these risks are

A) Range of skills

Healing Capabilities

C) Defensive abilities

So Rangers dont have problems with A and C and with C i mean Mobility, Mobility while doing damage is one perk which saves your ass many times. So obviously rangers shouldnt have that high damage. (Please do note in PvP capabilities of rangers when battling a wizard)

Wizards on the other hand has (some what good) Survivability.

With Teleport & Icebwall altho theyre CD controlled and needs to spend alot of skill points to gain from them (which results as lower dps)

Seal explosion doesnt save you if boss targets you cause they have very low defense (Rangers can just run in a circle if they are faster than boss and pew pew all they want hey they even has a slow) and its over time~

So wizard is in more pooped state than a ranger BUT its damage isnt mobile at all sooo lil lil bit higher dps than rangers. Defene is a enormous factor when it comes to survivability dont forget.(And the PvP is pooped if you know how to run in a circle against wiz)

@Fluke you think you gain something from a INT buff ;P?

Edited by PandeeChio, 02 July 2014 - 10:10 PM.

[flukeSG2]

@Fluke you think you gain something from a INT buff ;P?

 

More falcon damage?

[StormHaven]

Tbh my stance on Rangers vs Wizards in DPS is that Wizards should dominate all classes when it comes to AoE DPS, but should be behind Rangers in single target DPS.

 

[Cleftobismal]

Tbh my stance on Rangers vs Wizards in DPS is that Wizards should dominate all classes when it comes to AoE DPS, but should be behind Rangers in single target DPS.

 

 

 

Wizards should be glass cannons.

 

 

Rangers should be Robbin Hood On Steroids. 

 

 

That is all. /o/

 

 

@TifaValentine   

 

 

Hi Tifaa /o/ 

Edited by Cleftobismal, 03 July 2014 - 02:42 AM.

[5813130519065941580]

So why are you forgetting the what is it 20meter Teleport?..

Fair enough rangers have backflip but you can only go backwards plus rangers rarely use it

 

Wizard have a 100% invulnerability skill now that Ymir invulnerability is gone that Ice Wall she be considered useful.

DON'T FORGET THE HEAL ASWELL AS THE 348072350235K DOT AFTER FIREBALL

Edited by 5813130519065941580, 03 July 2014 - 03:09 AM.

[TifaValentine]

 

@TifaValentine   

 

 

Hi Tifaa /o/ 

 

Hi o.o/

 

Tbh my stance on Rangers vs Wizards in DPS is that Wizards should dominate all classes when it comes to AoE DPS, but should be behind Rangers in single target DPS.

 

 

This. Wizards should be dominating in that area. IMO, Wizards don't have to necessarily be "weaker" than rangers, it's not what we're all saying here. My post made it quite clear: balance across classes. Doesn't mean we need to buff all classes NOR nerf them all NOR nerf some and buff some. But rework them. And yes, that DOES take time and dedication from devs...but hey.. THAT is their job after all!! They get paid for this!!

Back to topic, sure rangers have mobility is all what people keep mentioning. But mobility doesn't mean they should be fragile as a leaf floating in the air around you, and while its true rangers have the upper hand when it comes to sp usage (which never was a problem for them unlike wizzies) and casttime (instacast or shortcast skills over wiz longass casttimes), theyre basically spamming low dmg skills...which isnt exactly good. At least wizards have a powerful DoT (rip my beloved PA, and i mean pre AoV PA). Pre AoV my ranger was able to dish out decent and constant dps, and the build -altho hybrid- worked both for pve and pvp without it being overpowered at all; poison arrow wasnt op but would still help with the constant dps as well as falcon actually working (not like now that its pointless and its AI is absolutely retarded). It's only an example, yes, but what I'm saying is that rangers pre aov were tough but still could be killed in pvp, and were really useful in pve. Right now? they've been rendered almost useless in pvp (with the exception of a handful people who I respect and admire for being the rest rangers regardless of any nerfs; guys you know who are and I love you). And pve? lol..what pve? Not to mention that rangers have to struggle and invest thousands more to be able to do crits as high as other classes that can crit twice that and no sweat. Rangers dont even have a decent finisher skill anymore. No DoTs, most of their skills are broken or their dmg modifier has been nerfed to laugh, or arent affected by an elemented weapon. Traps are, as i always said, a situational thing. They may work some times, but they wont always trap their victim; and the player has to stay on it for some seconds before it triggers. Melees cant really say that they're struggling with rangers nowadays. You're either an inexperienced melee player, or you're just facing one of the most experienced rangers we still have. I'm not saying rangers are the "weakest" class; all the gam is suffering stupid changes and nerfs or stupid buffs. But I'm tired of people who keep denying the solid fact that rangers ARE being unnecessarily nerfed, in the form of ninja'd changes and for the worst.

 

 

So why are you forgetting the what is it 20meter Teleport?..

Fair enough rangers have backflip but you can only go backwards plus rangers rarely use it

 

Wizard have a 100% invulnerability skill now that Ymir invulnerability is gone that Ice Wall she be considered useful.

DON'T FORGET THE HEAL ASWELL AS THE 348072350235K DOT AFTER FIREBALL

 

That backflip.. acrobatics you mean? Ew.. xD Ive only ever used it for "exploration" purposes hahah (I'm jealous of warrior's battleleap.. I made a warr alt just for the battleleap I admit.......) Its VERY situational the use of acrobatics, and I hate its animation, it makes you such a nice target for stunning skills; the animation is stupid and takes too long for a "escape" skill. 

Dont also forget that fireball isn't an instacast DoT though... you need to make sure you dont get interrupted while casting it upon on your victim.

 

I miss Ymir invulnerability :C was my ohshi button when mobbing got dangerous (aka if tank or healer died) QQ!

[Meirin]

Thing is Natsu, most Rangers are ditching the AGI buff since it's really worthless anymore.  So we aren't even walking AGI buffs anymore haha.  The second thing is, WHY AREN'T THESE IN PATCH NOTES?!  Are they trying to hide the "balance" they are doing?!  They havent' even explained our reduction in PvP damage yet.

 

Oh and, I'm not sure how basic gears this affects us, all I can see is a loss of 3% in defense.  Which I can easily reach the cap if I finish +20'ing my gear again.  I only had 3 pieces +'d.  So whatever this is, is still stupid, no matter how you look at it.  If they are nerfing us, they did a bad job.  If this is a bug...consider it reported I guess.

 

From what I understand, the communication between departments is very poor, mostly due to language barriers. Plus, the team working on the game is quite small. I do not know if this is fully true, but this is what I have heard. It explains a lot though, if it is true.

 

Gathering what people have been saying here, the way that the game is now, you are pretty much stuck with one build in terms of the stat points. Skill points allow for some more diversity, but that does not mean much in one sense when our skills' functionality are kind of up to the discretion of the devs' flippant whims. One patch people cry that we are OP; then next we cry that we are nerfed. So, really, we are not allowed any kind of diversity in builds more or less anymore, which kills much of the point of the game: allowing players to tailor their characters to be the best on the server. The most tailoring that players do anymore is with costumes. Really?! If I wanted to play with dolls, I could do it with my friends' kids.