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dual raider debuff is over power !


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#1 poso

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:01 AM

I really think the cool down needs to increased , useless to have a puri of the dual raider skill can cast at no waiting cool down, and maybe the effect can be lowered to 5 or 10 seconds , well thats just me . i hope some one agree with me , 


the slow movement speed debuff i meant 


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#2 angeltje

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

Puri can be used. So i don't see any problem.
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#3 Zurn

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:42 AM

I'd say the problem would be the 5 second cool down, and the 8 meter area of effect with it. You can certainly purify it, but can you purify everyone and not get hit with it again in 5 seconds?


Edited by Zurn, 12 July 2014 - 09:42 AM.

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#4 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 10:38 AM

Puri can be used. So i don't see any problem.

 

Purify (unique) cool down is 8 sec.
Crippling storm cool down is 5 sec, 20 sec duration.

So you basically can leave the enemies debuffed at all times. In my honest opinion, it is not overpowered but just as annoying as fierce cudgeling, shield jab. I am wondering why this is still not fixed yet, such powerful debuff should be treated as like a berserk/dual rigging/augmenting reflection, it should not be able to cast constantly.

The reason why there is an influx of dual raiders recently is because how overpowered, game changing this skill is, but the dual raider class itself is still in fact inferior to katar raiders, making the crippling storm overpowered is not a solution to get over the gap between katar/dual. Crippling storm needs to have the cool down and duration swapped. I mean look at soul wreck for sword champ it is 6 sec duration and 20 sec cool down too but 80% chance only.


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#5 iMatt

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 10:49 AM

Mage aoe is overpowered! need nerf kk thx

 

after the mdef down aoe mages hit with AOE skills harder than 90% of all single target skills - nerf dual slow but also nerf AoE skills:

 

suggestion: if 1 AoE hits 10 people then divide the damage by 10 players!

 

AoEs are not supposed to deal more damage than single traget skills on single targets!


Edited by iMatt, 12 July 2014 - 10:52 AM.

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#6 Leeny

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 11:16 AM

Mage aoe is overpowered! need nerf kk thx

 

after the mdef down aoe mages hit with AOE skills harder than 90% of all single target skills - nerf dual slow but also nerf AoE skills:

 

suggestion: if 1 AoE hits 10 people then divide the damage by 10 players!

 

AoEs are not supposed to deal more damage than single traget skills on single targets!

 

Divide the damage by 10 people? You want to make mage class completely useless? lol.

 

I also would have to agree the Dual Blade debuffs need a much longer cooldown.


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#7 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 12:41 PM

Mage aoe is overpowered! need nerf kk thx

 

after the mdef down aoe mages hit with AOE skills harder than 90% of all single target skills - nerf dual slow but also nerf AoE skills:

 

suggestion: if 1 AoE hits 10 people then divide the damage by 10 players!

 

AoEs are not supposed to deal more damage than single traget skills on single targets!


Mage outclass dual raider, but we are talking about one specific skill in here, and has nothing to do with whether AOE deals more damage than single target skill on one target. Don't use non-related things to defend how crippling storm not being overpowered, just like how people defend Fierce cudgeling is needed for mages because of how fragile the mage class is, it has no connection with that at all.


Fierce cudgeling is still overpowered because PvP without buffs is hopeless. Crippling storm is overpowered because you can put multiple people 100% immobilized permanently. No skills in this game can ever put people to 0 AP, 0 def, 0 mdef, 0 acc, 0 crit, 0 a-speed. even though mage's aural pierce can leave soldier at 10 mdef easily, but that does not leave solders into completely "unable to combat" state.


I played my dual raider for awhile, I could slice the enemy team into two piece, they could not regroup due to my crippling storm, I cast the debuff onto the dead unbuffed individuals who want to go back to their group and I go back continue fighting for about 15 sec then go back to the unbuffed individuals and recast the debuff again, so they could never go back to regroup at all but to stand on the balcony watching the people who fight in the front lines die 1 by 1, so they can regroup.

 

Regarding mage's AOE has advantage over any other class, you just have to deal with it (not really), because mage is a glass cannon. But being a glass cannon is not an excuse that they should have fierce cudgeling. Same for dual raiders, being such a low damage output class is not an excuse that they deserve a game breaking skill (crippling storm, enfeeblement but not mental storm)


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#8 IAfjiBa

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:06 PM

I also agree with this, the cooldown need to be longer. 


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#9 Leeny

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:11 PM

I also agree with this, the cooldown need to be longer. 

 

Longer cooldown + single unit cast in my opinion.


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#10 tENLAVUU

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:11 PM

but the dual raider class itself is still in fact inferior to katar raiders, 

 

0 mspd in ga for 99% of the time is very exciting! and no ,duals are not inferior to katars with how the game is now. not sure where u get that from lmfao


Edited by tENLAVUU, 12 July 2014 - 01:11 PM.

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#11 IAfjiBa

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:20 PM

Mage aoe is overpowered! need nerf kk thx

 

after the mdef down aoe mages hit with AOE skills harder than 90% of all single target skills - nerf dual slow but also nerf AoE skills:

 

suggestion: if 1 AoE hits 10 people then divide the damage by 10 players!

 

AoEs are not supposed to deal more damage than single traget skills on single targets!

 

I like the idea that the attack damage gets divided up but I asked a mage, he/she give 10,000 damage on champs around that, 10,000 / 10 is 1000 damage per champ that get hit. I asked a champion he had close to 28,000 HP. If we gonna take 10,000/5 this will give 2000 damage per champ. But then if you think about in a cd if it are a full game going only 50% of the enemy team will get hit and in dungeon will only 5 mobs get hit by I dont know 30? So maybe if you could change so mobs can be like 10,000/ 30, it will be 333 damage per mob and 10,000/5 in a pvp version? This is only like a tought, number can change but just a tought ;)

 

 


Edited by Buffiies, 12 July 2014 - 01:20 PM.

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#12 IAfjiBa

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:24 PM

Longer cooldown + single unit cast in my opinion.

 

 

Attacly when you say it, Dual raiders is a hunter you could say, he/she is going after one person and their mspeed debuff is a way for them to hunt other players. Dual Raiders arent suppose to hunt down 3-4 people at the same time, they are after one player. So I tottaly understand that you want '' Single unit ''. 


Edited by Buffiies, 12 July 2014 - 01:28 PM.

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#13 lolmetimbers89

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:29 PM

lmfao this is still broken? Look at these 2 topics that were opened back in May. I'm glad I moved on already though it is sad to see that simple fixes haven't even been done.

 

http://forums.warppo...-raider-debuff/

http://forums.warppo...ulously-broken/


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#14 iMatt

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:49 PM

no need to read anything of this: database update allows devs to check and compare classes properly and it will show that AoE classes are far ahead to single target classes overall - this will mean AoE in GENERAL has to get nerfed ( AOE HEAL & DAMAGE) and this includes ofc the AoE slow of dual raiders.

 

but since someone started a mimimimi crying thread i wanted to put my T.T also in it and that is clearly: nerf AoE kk thx bb.

 

the only sitation i will point out here: I lost on my Katar raider a 1on1 situation to a mage without getten manaburned, debuffed or kited by pure mdef down+aoe spam while i was 100% of the fight meleeing him with all cooldowns i had. mage is not supposed to be able to do that - good night!


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#15 Leeny

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:20 PM

no need to read anything of this: database update allows devs to check and compare classes properly and it will show that AoE classes are far ahead to single target classes overall - this will mean AoE in GENERAL has to get nerfed ( AOE HEAL & DAMAGE) and this includes ofc the AoE slow of dual raiders.

 

but since someone started a mimimimi crying thread i wanted to put my T.T also in it and that is clearly: nerf AoE kk thx bb.

 

the only sitation i will point out here: I lost on my Katar raider a 1on1 situation to a mage without getten manaburned, debuffed or kited by pure mdef down+aoe spam while i was 100% of the fight meleeing him with all cooldowns i had. mage is not supposed to be able to do that - good night!

 

Yes, that is complete BS if that's what happened. Mage without using debuff, kite or manaburn winning against your raider..Anyway, Dual blade debuffs needs adjusting. Mage also needs adjusting. Will they do it? Who knows.


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#16 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:37 PM

the only sitation i will point out here: I lost on my Katar raider a 1on1 situation to a mage without getten manaburned, debuffed or kited by pure mdef down+aoe spam while i was 100% of the fight meleeing him with all cooldowns i had. mage is not supposed to be able to do that - good night!

 

That's because many mages stack a lot of MP passive for the mana shield, but if that is the case I'm pretty sure that mage sacrificed a lot of SP into those MP passive which means he will be bad in terms of AOE damage.


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#17 DrunkinMonkey

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:29 PM

you will also find that in a lot of cases to get such high de-buffs the raiders have had to smash as many points into charm as possible which makes them pretty useless for anything other then de-buffing.

I do agree something needs to be done but just how drastically im not sure as I don't have a max lvl duel weld raider and don't pvp much these days.

 

I do like the idea of making it single target only however duel raiders do have a lot of aoe skills so maybe reduce how much they can de-buff buy in order to stop them being able to make people freeze in place?


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#18 Leeny

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:17 PM

you will also find that in a lot of cases to get such high de-buffs the raiders have had to smash as many points into charm as possible which makes them pretty useless for anything other then de-buffing.

I do agree something needs to be done but just how drastically im not sure as I don't have a max lvl duel weld raider and don't pvp much these days.

 

I do like the idea of making it single target only however duel raiders do have a lot of aoe skills so maybe reduce how much they can de-buff buy in order to stop them being able to make people freeze in place?

 

I find them putting charm helps them in combat also. Since it is lowering others ASPD down hardcore.

And yes they do have AOE, so yea they should scale down their MSPD debuff + longer cooldown or again, single target with same amount + also a longer cooldown.
 


Edited by Leeny, 12 July 2014 - 05:22 PM.

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#19 poso

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:03 PM

lmfao this is still broken? Look at these 2 topics that were opened back in May. I'm glad I moved on already though it is sad to see that simple fixes haven't even been done.

 

http://forums.warppo...-raider-debuff/

http://forums.warppo...ulously-broken/

agree, well aoe purifi on clerics have been changed from 20m to 10 m and i think this dual raider slow mspeed needs to be looked up. is way over power , maybe cool down to 10 sec, and and effect to 10 sec instead of 20 . 


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#20 poso

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:06 PM

no need to read anything of this: database update allows devs to check and compare classes properly and it will show that AoE classes are far ahead to single target classes overall - this will mean AoE in GENERAL has to get nerfed ( AOE HEAL & DAMAGE) and this includes ofc the AoE slow of dual raiders.

 

but since someone started a mimimimi crying thread i wanted to put my T.T also in it and that is clearly: nerf AoE kk thx bb.

 

the only sitation i will point out here: I lost on my Katar raider a 1on1 situation to a mage without getten manaburned, debuffed or kited by pure mdef down+aoe spam while i was 100% of the fight meleeing him with all cooldowns i had. mage is not supposed to be able to do that - good night!

that must be a one weak katar raider you got there, i killed so many mages with my katar raiders, and pretty much they quit the game cause they died so easily , they only rely on their mana shield which last like 3 -4 hits than when normal hits come , they are like paper , so is ok for them to have a stronger aoe , cause they got nothing else beside that ...


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#21 maischoyuchen

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:13 PM

you shouldn't worry to much about dual class if your team has cleric w/ purify party & know what to do.

 

i have 2 of 230 mages w/ 2 different builds myself ... i can tell you that mage is way too overpowered in CD if well protected by team.

 

but mage is overpowered by raider class lol especially when your build is not for 1v1.


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#22 Ahya

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:25 PM

Mage outclass dual raider, but we are talking about one specific skill in here, and has nothing to do with whether AOE deals more damage than single target skill on one target. Don't use non-related things to defend how crippling storm not being overpowered, just like how people defend Fierce cudgeling is needed for mages because of how fragile the mage class is, it has no connection with that at all.


Fierce cudgeling is still overpowered because PvP without buffs is hopeless. Crippling storm is overpowered because you can put multiple people 100% immobilized permanently. No skills in this game can ever put people to 0 AP, 0 def, 0 mdef, 0 acc, 0 crit, 0 a-speed. even though mage's aural pierce can leave soldier at 10 mdef easily, but that does not leave solders into completely "unable to combat" state.


I played my dual raider for awhile, I could slice the enemy team into two piece, they could not regroup due to my crippling storm, I cast the debuff onto the dead unbuffed individuals who want to go back to their group and I go back continue fighting for about 15 sec then go back to the unbuffed individuals and recast the debuff again, so they could never go back to regroup at all but to stand on the balcony watching the people who fight in the front lines die 1 by 1, so they can regroup.

 

Regarding mage's AOE has advantage over any other class, you just have to deal with it (not really), because mage is a glass cannon. But being a glass cannon is not an excuse that they should have fierce cudgeling. Same for dual raiders, being such a low damage output class is not an excuse that they deserve a game breaking skill (crippling storm, enfeeblement but not mental storm)

 

By no means do I agree that Fierce Cudgeling is something overpowered. Fight a mage who uses it and the only thing you can do is to kill before you get your buffs taken away. It's not really hopeless, and what I just said is something very doable. Using Fierce though, is actually only efficient against raiders or Battle Clerics in PvP, or to shoo away the raiders attacking you in a group fight. :P

 

 

no need to read anything of this: database update allows devs to check and compare classes properly and it will show that AoE classes are far ahead to single target classes overall - this will mean AoE in GENERAL has to get nerfed ( AOE HEAL & DAMAGE) and this includes ofc the AoE slow of dual raiders.

 

but since someone started a mimimimi crying thread i wanted to put my T.T also in it and that is clearly: nerf AoE kk thx bb.

 

the only sitation i will point out here: I lost on my Katar raider a 1on1 situation to a mage without getten manaburned, debuffed or kited by pure mdef down+aoe spam while i was 100% of the fight meleeing him with all cooldowns i had. mage is not supposed to be able to do that - good night!

 

That mage only did it because of investing so much into MP Passives. Debuff or kiting is necessary for a mage to win against a raider if he has no MP Passives. And by taking those passives to be able to kill you without those specific skills takes away their damage dealing capabilities AoE wise, and their ability to choose from a large arsenal of spells. Mage is either a squishy powerhouse or a "tanky" auto taunt. And for either of the two would come a mage who specializes in crowd control or one who excels in PvP. You came upon a tanky PvP one. :)

 

 

you shouldn't worry to much about dual class if your team has cleric w/ purify party & know what to do.

 

i have 2 of 230 mages w/ 2 different builds myself ... i can tell you that mage is way too overpowered in CD if well protected by team.

 

but mage is overpowered by raider class lol especially when your build is not for 1v1.

 

Mage will only get that "overpowered" though, if your team protects you well enough and if the enemy team isn't capable of penetrating through that kind of protection. It's a gamble for a mage to queue in CD about whether or not he will have a team as capable as what you have said. :D


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#23 Krizalis

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:35 PM

So many pros in here.. I am truly humbled!


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#24 iMatt

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:40 AM

that must be a one weak katar raider you got there, i killed so many mages with my katar raiders, and pretty much they quit the game cause they died so easily , they only rely on their mana shield which last like 3 -4 hits than when normal hits come , they are like paper , so is ok for them to have a stronger aoe , cause they got nothing else beside that ...


wanna see that katar that breaks a 10-15.000 manashield with just 3-4 hits ;) - calling me/my raider weak makes me feeling sorry for you - let me guess you play on draconis? :)


That's because many mages stack a lot of MP passive for the mana shield, but if that is the case I'm pretty sure that mage sacrificed a lot of SP into those MP passive which means he will be bad in terms of AOE damage.


well even with bad aoes after mdef down they hit harder than the raiders skills/normal hits - the balance of manashield and mage aoes just doesn t exist - int charm mages with high mp pool/manshield + aoe build are overpowered and that you don t have to talk "small" - of course they die when 3-4 focus them but they aren t supposed to last long vs a raider in melee range without kiting/dbing/manaburning. Since Rose beta raiders were always supposed to be the counterpart of mages but now it is just a joke.

Edited by Zurn, 13 July 2014 - 06:48 AM.

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#25 Feuer

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:09 AM

I'm just going to put this whole thing to rest..

 

1: Dual raiders are designed around the concept that the longer it takes to kill them, the more deadly they'll become, until a point is reached where they will completely overpower you.

2: Debuffs of the dual raider were supposed to be the polar opposite of cleric buffs with a slightly higher base, making it so they can negate most of a clerics buff without needing as much charm, or else they would suffer too drastically from lack of ability to survive or deal damage.

 

What ACTUALLY needs to be done.

Definitely not a cooldown increase, that will not solve anything in this situation, as the problem is not about a relation to puri, it's about the relation of available buff amounts, gear bonus amounts and skill passive amounts. 

The combined stat weights from gear + buffs is still inferior to a debuff from a CHA spec'd dual raider. The problem stems from the fact that

a] Clerics mspeed buffs have been reduced 1-2 times since the class re-balancing + skill updates.

b] Dual raiders status downs have NOT been touched since the re-balancing or skill updates [none of them, not the def, mspeed, or accu. The A-Speed was removed from the CHA affect during the balancing but not touched since]

 

So the fix is simple. Re-adjust the base level of mspeed down on the duals debuffs [status downs]. 

The level of importance is

1: Mspeed down

2: Accu down -this is also too high-

3: Increased application rates of wounded or apply to an additional single target skill.

 

There are also many other factors at play, however 1 thing is VERY clear, the status downs of a dual are not proportional to a clerics buffs, but~ they are closer in proportion to buffs provided from classes.

 

So, no, the cooldown doesn't need adjustment, purification doesn't need to be altered. The amount down needs to be lowered, or applied in "stages". Like stacks. 

an example of this would be

1: Cast Enfeeblement / Crippling Storm

[@Skill Lvl5]: Applies ((100*SkillLvl)+Static Value)*Stack_counter = total

Max Stack 5

Stack duration 10 seconds

Cooldown Times: 5 seconds

 

Data Emulation

Lvl 1 @ 5 Stacks:: ((20*1)+15) 5 = 195 down [total]

Lvl 5 @ 5 Stacks:: ((100*5)+35) 5 = 675 down [total]

 

This provides the "over-time" debilitating effect they're designed to do, while also providing a more manageable status application + purification rate exchange. 


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