79 replies to this topic

[deathcauser]

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE.

 

Thoughts on cross impact. On test sever it did not do the big numbers we are seeing now. Unfortunately the damage % is so high that almost any player can do big numbers.  In my report i'm going to push for a lower attack %. Is there any other sins that want  to add their 2 cents to it, because this skill to me feels broken.

Please leave your responses here

[9632130515120055620]

Yes please, literally gibbed anyone out of stealth in WoE. I think it was all I did. It's so broken lol.

 

The mechanics of cross impact probably need to be changed because it's just gonna get outclassed by strike every time, maybe something like 600% damage generate 2 combo points?

[4458130508113924833]

Keep in mind that Cross Impact is a thief skill, not an assassin skill, sure we have our great opener, Shadow Strike, but rogues have not, nerfing it would affect them too, still I don't understand why are you surprised by the big numbers we're seeing since it's the attack with the second highest damage multiplier now, it's like... Basic math, maybe it's just impressive because it's a single damage splash, but Shadow strike is a single hit too and it only hits slightly less. (also take account the new penetration we have, and check your privilege your seed runes, that might be part of the problem). I don't think neither Cross Impact nor Shadow Strike Outclass eachother, they have synergy, SS hits slightly less, but it's needed for the Shadow Explosion buff and has a short animation that can be used while moving, CI hits slightly harder, but other than that has no benefits and makes you stop for a second or two, more than enough for a good warrior to leap you, for example. Still I actually expected it to hit a little harder, the only times I've seen scary numbers are when Ymir is up and my Penetration goes to like 700.

[deathcauser]

Keep in mind that Cross Impact is a thief skill, not an assassin skill, sure we have our great opener, Shadow Strike, but rogues have not, nerfing it would affect them too, still I don't understand why are you surprised by the big numbers we're seeing since it's the attack with the second highest damage multiplier now, it's like... Basic math, maybe it's just impressive because it's a single damage splash, but Shadow strike is a single hit too and it only hits slightly less. (also take account the new penetration we have, and check your privilege your seed runes, that might be part of the problem). I don't think neither Cross Impact nor Shadow Strike Outclass eachother, they have synergy, SS hits slightly less, but it's needed for the Shadow Explosion buff and has a short animation that can be used while moving, CI hits slightly harder, but other than that has no benefits and makes you stop for a second or two, more than enough for a good warrior to leap you, for example. Still I actually expected it to hit a little harder, the only times I've seen scary numbers are when Ymir is up and my Penetration goes to like 700.

Of course is a thief skill, Why would a first class skill have so much power, When i did testing on it i did it on a full +20 bear tank, and a soulmaker. i was excited but when it hit live everything crumbled to pieces. The seeds do impact cross impact BUT you have to think, There are sins i never even seen before 1 shoting player's. Also lets put CI against sin and rogue's skills against each other.

 

Cross impact - thief skill- max level 5

700% attack power, 1400 attack power with critical, 2800% attack power from hide with critical

Cooldown of 6.53 seconds at least for me.

Gain 1 combo point.

1400% attack power for being in hide.

 

Shadow strike- sin skill - max level 10

581% attack power, 1162 Attack power with critical, 2324% attack power from hide with a critical

Cooldown of 8.20 seconds for me.

Gain 3 combo points when used.

1162% attack power from hide.

Must be in naruto shadow form to be used.

At max level at you have a 30% chance of getting "Mark of shadows" buff.

 

Shadow explosion- Sin skill- Max level 10

770% attack power 1540% critical, 3080% Attack power in combination of critical and "mark of shadow" buff

Hits twice with varying results.

Cool down of 8.20 seconds for me.

Needs 5 combo points to use

1540% attack power if you have "mark of shadows" buff

Can not use from hide.

 

Moonlight dance - rogue skill- max level 10

1420% Attack power 2840% attack power with a critical, 5680% attack power from hide with a critical  .  30% more physical attack power on to those values if the target has detect weakness.

Cooldown of 17.65 seconds on a ML 1 rogue, (can get lower with more vigor)

Needs 5 combo points to use

Does 1420% attack power plus 30% of your physical attack if the target has detect weakness debuff.

Does 2840 % attack power From hide if the rogue uses smoke bomb.

 

As you can see with the numbers Cross impact beats our 2 sin skills, especially with hide, Normally its behind shadow explode by 70% but as a starter from hide it does way to much damage especially if it crits, Vs moonlight dance it takes the cake but its behind cross impact by 40% power.  A THIEF SKILL SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT MUCH POWER. we asked for a buff but the devs went crazy so its up to us to fix it.

 

Also players are reporting penetration is broken in Colo due to the fact that everybody is "lvl 50" and cross impact does a so much damage u wanna slap ur mamma.

 

TL:DR = cross impact 2 stronk

Edited by deathcauser, 22 August 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[9632130515120055620]

Something is wrong with penetration formula in colo, I mean winning as sin was pretty easy before but now it's a joke. Knock someone down, cross impact, shadow strike and pretty much nothing in the universe lives. I'm doing way, way more damage than I used to in colo and I'm not the only person in our guild to notice this.

Edited by 9632130515120055620, 22 August 2014 - 04:37 PM.

[Axtar]

I'm totally cool with nerfing cross impact reasonably - that damage, yo. The crit rate buff could probably also be lowered slightly while we're at that.

[deathcauser]

After going in to colo jesus something going wrong

[9632130515120055620]

I don't understand why our party buff is better than our self-crit buff, why not make shadow claw 10% and party buff 5%? The 10% buff is literally the best party buff in game hands down right now

[Guigui]

Assasin is officially broken since this patch. No one can deny that

[4458130508113924833]

Of course is a thief skill, Why would a first class skill have so much power

Don't know, ask Wizards and Sorcerers about that, or Swordsman's since Battle tactics is still a first class skill. Or Priests, the only ones that could jump from this boat would be Monks, Bears, and Soulmakers.
 

When i did testing on it i did it on a full +20 bear tank, and a soulmaker. i was excited but when it hit live everything crumbled to pieces. The seeds do impact cross impact BUT you have to think, There are sins i never even seen before 1 shoting player's.

I don't know, that seems like like a lot of personal experience to me, maybe you're just too good at PVP, or maybe I suck balls since my Cross Impact doesn't seem to crumble bears to dust, but that would be my personal experience sucking at PVP and having runes, about the last part, everyone's oneshoting everyone who doesn't dare to go full vit and stack CLS runes, that's not a Thief problem, that's a problem with the damage formula.
 

Also lets put CI against sin and rogue's skills against each other.
 
*skill details*
 
As you can see with the numbers Cross impact beats our 2 sin skills, especially with hide, Normally its behind shadow explode by 70% but as a starter from hide it does way to much damage especially if it crits, Vs moonlight dance it takes the cake but its behind cross impact by 40% power.  A THIEF SKILL SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT MUCH POWER. we asked for a buff but the devs went crazy so its up to us to fix it.

Now we're talking. You're comparing vastly different things there. As stated before, being a first class skill it's irrelevant since most classes rely on their first class skills to get around and they're very powerful, Fireball, Judex and Aspersio, Battle Tactics, etc. Now I wouldn't compare Cross Impact to shadow Explosion Since Shadow Explosion is a finisher skill and has prerequisites, same as Moonlight Dance.

Anyway, you're right in the first part, in the numbers Cross Impact beats Shadow Strike, it has a bigger multiplier than and also has the advantage of a slightly shorter cooldown (8 seconds versus 10 seconds) it's similar on that regard to Shadow Strike, it's an opener skill, has no prerequisites and can be used form hide, ONCE per battle. On the other side, it makes us sitting ducks whilst using it and has quite the animation time, and has no other advantages to it besides hitting hard. Shadow Strike on the other hand can be used while moving, gives us 3 combo points instantly, helping us to build the prerequisites for our finisher faster and makes our finisher really deadly by doubling it's damage. So I don't think Cross Impact "beats" our Assassin skills, if anything, it complements them, considering our rotation is very limited.

Back to the first argument, why shouldn't a thief skill have much power? Compare it to Sorcerers for example, Fireball has a shorter cooldown and a bigger multiplier, also a very strong dot, and it's a Magician Skill. Our basic skill (Double Attack) it's already weaker than every one else's, considering it has the lowest multiplier besides Swordsman's Bash but it's divided in two hits.

 

I don't understand why our party buff is better than our self-crit buff, why not make shadow claw 10% and party buff 5%? The 10% buff is literally the best party buff in game hands down right now

 

This, that 10% on a Warrior/Knight makes them mass murderers, holy crap.

Edit. Forgot about the colo part because LOLCOLO, it's not a good measure of anything, but if you really want to try it, get on with some level 50 white gear or whatever level you find more aesthetically pleasing and tell me about it. Seed runes break colo like they break the rest of the game.

Edited by 4458130508113924833, 22 August 2014 - 09:21 PM.

[deathcauser]

Don't know, ask Wizards and Sorcerers about that, or Swordsman's since Battle tactics is still a first class skill. Or Priests, the only ones that could jump from this boat would be Monks, Bears, and Soulmakers.

 

Sorcs and wizs before they hit ML their fire skills are caped at lvl 5, They have to be standing still while casting and if the player jukes them they cannot cast it. also they are a mage class and they are more glass cannons (unless they +

20 their gear) sorcs are a little more tanky with their party buffs but the same apply to them. Balanced tacitcs is so broken and that needs a hardcore nerf, In a a different MMO tanks don't get to tank and do high amounts of damage, it was decent in pre aov but now its just overkill and needs a huge overhaul. Priests are lol with their dots and chain stuns, and they need a Nerf to those also.

 

 

 

I don't know, that seems like like a lot of personal experience to me, maybe you're just too good at PVP, or maybe I suck balls since my Cross Impact doesn't seem to crumble bears to dust, but that would be my personal experience sucking at PVP and having   runes, about the last part, everyone's oneshoting everyone who doesn't dare to go full vit and stack CLS runes, that's not a Thief problem, that's a problem with the damage formula.

 

My runes are probably the worst out of the top assassins. My power is at 8% but i don't use it since its in another claw. Also i don't run with full vit and i don't get one shot, most of the time, and yes the damage formula is a little to high so its up to us to try to fix it.

 

 

Forgot about the colo part because LOLCOLO, it's not a good measure of anything, but if you really want to try it, get on with some level 50 white gear or whatever level you find more aesthetically pleasing and tell me about it. Seed runes break colo like they break the rest of the game.

 

Yes seeds break colo but when i go in to colo i go in full pvp gear, since i want it to be most fair. There's a lot i would like to suggest for Pvp fixing but i wanna see how good i do as a VRC before i go and type up my pvp essay.

 

 

 

 has no other advantages to it besides hitting hard. 

 

This is tru, but going off on what you said this skill does not require any thing other than being stuck in an animation that is a good draw back to using it. but u can use it any time as long as the cooldown is off. i feel like double attack should have gotten a buff imo but i do feel like we should reduce the damage to try and keep things balanced.

[rzevidz007]

... some wall of texts

 

Shadow explosion- Sin skill- Max level 10

770% attack power 1540% critical, 3080% Attack power in combination of critical and "mark of shadow" buff

Hits twice with varying results.

Cool down of 8.20 seconds for me.

Needs 5 combo points to use

1540% attack power if you have "mark of shadows" buff

Can not use from hide.

 

... another wall of text

 

Is this for real? Shadow Explosion got its damage nerfed after patch? Before it was 1000%+ something and now it turned to 770%? Devs went full retard on this one :/. An ultimate skill for an advancement class that rivals a basic thief skill with a maximum of 700% damage. Yea right. :/

[reydgreat51]

My thief can't change job into assasin..I think there is somewhat bug in my character...pls check it..the name is Skinsomia

[rzevidz007]

 

Shadow explosion- Sin skill- Max level 10

770% attack power 1540% critical, 3080% Attack power in combination of critical and "mark of shadow" buff

Hits twice with varying results.

Cool down of 8.20 seconds for me.

Needs 5 combo points to use

1540% attack power if you have "mark of shadows" buff

Can not use from hide.

 

 

Can someone confirm this SE changes on damage (from 1000+% to 770%? WTF!?) ?

Edited by rzevidz007, 25 August 2014 - 03:56 AM.

[Valciera]

Can someone confirm this SE changes on damage (from 1000+% to 770%? WTF!?) ?

 

Yes, it is true. 770% not only stand in the description, it is really changed that way. And for a second class skill at lvl 10 (!), I really have no Idea what they were thinking...

Cross Impact with less skill points is much better now than SE. (at least in my opinion)

[deathcauser]

i Am writing my report now, please if u guys have any more suggestions drop them here. thanks!

[Greven79]

To me, Cross Impact is totally broken. As I've written on a Rogue thread already, I've created a Thief this weekend and it became a master level rogue by the end of that day. The only skill that I maxed was Cross Impact. It was a sure one-shot against most enemies and it was the lamest leveling experience I ever had,

 

And that overwhelming power even early in the game (lower levels) is totally different to the other skills mentioned like Fireball or Battle Tactics.

 

Anyway, you're right in the first part, in the numbers Cross Impact beats Shadow Strike, it has a bigger multiplier than and also has the advantage of a slightly shorter cooldown (8 seconds versus 10 seconds) it's similar on that regard to Shadow Strike, it's an opener skill, has no prerequisites and can be used form hide, ONCE per battle. 

 

Both Shadow Strike and Cross Impact can be used normally outside of hide. Just to show you the pre-ML situation in more detail:

 

Lvl 5 - Cross Impact: 700% damage; 8sec CD; +1 CP

Lvl 5 - Shadow Strike: 415% damage; 20sec CD; +3 CP; 15% chance that the next Shadow Explosion is considered to be made out of hide.

Lvl 5 - Shadow Explosion: 550% damage; 20sec CD; 5 CP required; optional 1100% damage

 

and to add another skill:

 

Lvl 5 - Grimtooth: 415% damage, 30sec CD, 10 targets, +10 CP, 20% heal; but no bonus from hide

 

So it should be obvious that Cross Impact actually does almost twice at much damage with half the cooldown.

 

On the other side, it makes us sitting ducks whilst using it and has quite the animation time, and has no other advantages to it besides hitting hard. Shadow Strike on the other hand can be used while moving, gives us 3 combo points instantly, helping us to build the prerequisites for our finisher faster and makes our finisher really deadly by doubling it's damage. So I don't think Cross Impact "beats" our Assassin skills, if anything, it complements them, considering our rotation is very limited.

 

First of all, I can't really stand the 'sitting ducks' statement. It's less than a 1sec immobility. Gush, it's not a 3sec stun, nor a a 15sec perma-stun... and sometimes you just want to end on the same spot anyways. So just show me a vid where this actually made a difference in PvP!

 

Cross Impact also beats any other assassin skill skill-point wise. Sure, by leveling Shadow Strike or Shadow Explosion to level 10, they might eventually turn the tides, but it's still possible to max all of them (even forgoing to max. Double Attack). Given enough Vigor, it's possible to rotate between these skills. Then, it might not matter that much whether I do a...

 

Cross Impact (out of hide) + Shadow Strike + Shadow Explosion

... or a...

Shadow Strike (out of hide) + Cross Impact + Shadow Explosion

 

... combo (assuming a CT trigger). Both have their advantages.

 

Therefore, the question isn't whether Cross Impact ends up better than or up to par to Shadow Strike (or Shadow Explosion), but whetther or not another high-damaging skill isn't just lame and simply too much, further rendering other skills / skillbuilds useless.

 

That's why I made a few quick alternatives and asked f.e. what you would level, if Cross Impact would be a 250% damage skill that could cause the Mark of Shadow debuff instead... or what you would do, if Cross Impact would also restore 2% of your HP per level instead? Etc, etc.

 

Because right now, it's all too easy to level these three skills, starting with Cross Impact early.

 

Moonlight dance - rogue skill- max level 10

1420% Attack power 2840% attack power with a critical, 5680% attack power from hide with a critical

 

Comparing these skills with Moonlight dance is a bit odd, because the rogue has several different skills to start with. F.e. this skill has a 20sec cooldown and there isn't a 580% rogue skill that generates 3 CPs like Shadow Strike. The rogue doesn't have a stun attack usuable without combo points and  isn't exceptionally fast either.

 

Another note: Maybe I am doing something wrong here, but I can't use Moonlight Dance out of hide!

__________________________

 

However, beside all the Cross Impact comments here, the changes made to Grimtooth, Shadow Claw and Ymir Form seem to be totally ignored.

 

Grimtooth f.e. could be another 580%+ skill, but the new 30sec cooldown rendered the skill almost useless, especially since most effects (CP point generation, slow effect, heal) don't get better with additional levels.

 

Ymir alone creates an amor penetration of ~9% and with Shadow Claw it's 13%. Adding in additional armor penetration via cards & titles, and you might achieve 15% and more. That's a HUGE bonus. Reducing the defense rate from 75% to 60% f.e. results in a 60% damage increase. (That's the effect of a BT with 500 INT and 30% crit. chance). And there is not a single comment about that?

 

Well, well.... balance might still take a while.

Edited by Greven79, 26 August 2014 - 07:00 AM.

[rzevidz007]

Increase CI's max skill level to reach 700% damage.

 

Remove healing effect from Grimtooth but add a damage increase debuff to the enemy and revert the cooldown to 10 seconds.

 

Shadow Explosion should be returned to the rpevious damage of 1000%+ but integrate the two hits into one to make it a real DPS skill.

 

The increase of ATP in Shadow Form is barely negligble. Make it useful by f.e adding an extra Penetration.

 

[DivinityDrake]

Given that the decrease in power of Shadow Explosion from 1070% to 770% wasn't mentioned in the patch notes, it may possibly be a bug. LOTS Shadow Explosion did 850% dmg. The current damage is equivalent to a lvl 3 Shadow Explosion (Source).

 

Can you please look into that Leila?

[Greven79]

Given that the decrease in power of Shadow Explosion from 1070% to 770% wasn't mentioned in the patch notes, it may possibly be a bug. LOTS Shadow Explosion did 850% dmg. The current damage is equivalent to a lvl 3 Shadow Explosion (Source).

 

Keep in mind that the Assassin always had an 'unfair' cooldown for Shadow Explosion:

 

Shield Cannon: 20sec; 1160% damage (1508% vs. knocked down); requires only 3 stacks

Rage Strike: 20sec; 1140% damage (1482% vs. knocked down); hits multiple targets

Brutal Strike: 20sec; 1300% damage (1690% vs. knocked down); hits multiple targets; max lvl 5

 

Moonlight Dance: 20sec; 1420% (30% chance to trigger 1846% damage)

Ray of Genesis: 20sec; 1949% damage; possible casting time; no stacks required

 

Guillotine Fist: 60sec; 1680% damage; 3 stacks only; auto crit. vs, knocked down; 5% chance (or low HP trigger) for 3360% damage

BTW: That's only an 18% higher damage than for a Moonlight Dance, replacing the typical 50% crit. chance for the Rogue with a 100% vs. knocked down foes and a treble cooldown instead

 

Both the Ranger's Vulcan Arrow and the Wizard's Flame Explosion do have other issues that limit the cooldown. The Flame Explosion requires 100 pyro stacks and the Vulcan Arrow 5  Fear Breeze stack (~150 Concentration w/o Main Ranger), The noels each have two 'finisher' skills: One with a higher cooldown and one that can be used in Ymir... erm... Awake form only. So only the only thing that really screws the party is the Fireball and Jupitel Thunder. The latter f.e. deals more damage than a Varetyr Spear with a 30sec CD.

 

In other words, although a 770% damage for Shadow Explosion looks crappy, what do you expect for a skill that's like:

 

Shadow Explosion: 10sec; 770% damage (30% chance to trigger 1540% damage)

 

In other words: It's half the cooldown of a Moonlight Dance, but also half the damage. Compared to the other skills I've mentioned above, the original 1070% was really, really powerful!

 

BTW: Whereas other classes use a 100% trigger chance (knock down skills have a 100% chance) for +30% extra damage, the assassin had a 30% chance for 100% extra damage (switched percentages). Contrary to the knock-down trigger, Mark of Shadow works against PvE bosses as well.

 

So reducing the damage isn't totally unfair, but maybe not the best choice. I would have rather increased the cooldown to at least 15sec (keeping the original 1070% damage) or would have raised the cooldown to 20sec, pushing the damage to 1400~1500%. Both changes would have been plausible and far away from game-shifting. Changing the cooldown however, could have 'ruined' the skill rotation for some players and I guess that's why the devs preferred the sneaky nerf.

 

Another good thing is that now it becomes obvious, how powerful Shadow Strike really is/was compared to a 294% Dual Stab, a 294% Crushing Blow, a 308% Shield Bash, a 392% Bowling Bash or a 210~270% Illusion Blade.

 

Edit: Naming issues.

Edited by Greven79, 26 August 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[rzevidz007]

Not to mention, SE deals two hits instead of one, making it really hard to burst with the skill. Cross Impact, on the other hand, deals only 1 hit and has only 70% damage difference with SE. This is really broken, someone issue this problem already :/. 

 

Also Rage Strike and Brutal Strike descriptions are swapped. 1140% should be Rage Strike, and Brutal Strike should be 1300% max 5 level.

 

Brutal Strike: 20sec; 1140% damage (1482% vs. knocked down); hits multiple targets

Rage Strike: 20sec; 1300% damage (1690% vs. knocked down); hits multiple targets; max lvl 5

 

 

Edited by rzevidz007, 26 August 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[Greven79]

Also Rage Strike and Brutal Strike descriptions are swapped. 1140% should be Rage Strike, and Brutal Strike should be 1300% max 5 level.

 

Ah thanks... gonna correct that.

[rzevidz007]

I friggin see now. The devs have succeeded with their troll. The Shadow Explosion was not nerfed to 770%, instead, they've added the description "an additioal 6% (which is actually 60%) damage is added per Combo Point". So if there's 5 CP, then the damage should be 1070% damage, which is what it should be pre-patch. The damage stayed the same, Grimtooth was highly nerfed (which is again, good.), MoG being ridiculous and Cross Impact the new skill addition to Assassin's DPS window. This is cool. I am happy with the patch.

[Greven79]

 

Somehow, somewhere in the Gravity / WarpPortal universe a "60%" ran into a cowardly ambush and only the "6" made it out alive...

 

Still don't get it though. Shadow Explosion can't be used with less than 5 combo points. So it should always end up as 30... erm... 300% (damn those snipers).

 

So do they plan to change the skill anytime soon?

[Vau]

Maybe, they will increase the nº of Combo points you can get. That will make Deadly Blow useful again for Rogues/Assassin. I just hope they don't break the game, giving 15-20 Combo points stacked.

 

Off-topic:

 

Stop doing math about Assassin and other classes, PvP/PvE is more than just math, it works as a whole complement of attack and defense skills. Balance is more than just nerfing a skill and improving another.

 

Just sayin', have fun.