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#26 Critspam

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 10:17 AM

being able to use long range kafra or flying kafra while on grizzly form would be nicer. XD

 

EDIT:

 

1. there is also this bug that when I am in Feral Defense and uses Survival after the effect, I turn back to Human Form. Maybe you can add that to fixes :3

 

2. Using Beast Charge while on Tiger Form makes you stucked and unable to do anything.

 

3. When using Beast Charge after Feral Defense, the player will slowly move to the target but not completely reach it and does nothing but making the Beast Charge unusable.

 

Okay #1 has never happened to me in over 9 months of playing bear, how have you broken the game so hard?

 

As for #2.... why would even try to get closer to an enemy in the only form that you cannot use attack skills in?


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#27 Arbalist

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 11:48 AM

I can confirm #2 is true. Haven't tested the others yet.

EDIT: Can't get 1 to work, no one online to test #3 :P


Edited by Arbalist, 11 September 2014 - 11:50 AM.

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#28 Quetzalcoatlx

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 12:43 PM

 

 

As for #2.... why would even try to get closer to an enemy in the only form that you cannot use attack skills in?

 

uhh because.. who wouldn't want to see a Tiger Roll?  :p_laugh:  


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#29 Arbalist

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 12:55 PM

^I actually discovered it trying to create a different bug. If you guys have a Rogue with maxed MOD and Crescent Moon I can show you. It's the funniest bug since infinite rolling and I don't really want it to be fixed. 


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#30 Critspam

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 03:35 PM

I AM ALIIIIIVE!

 

Oh, and have another VCR report while i'm at it.

 

Spoiler


Edited by Critspam, 19 September 2014 - 03:38 PM.

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#31 9632130515120055620

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 03:58 AM

How about the beast points generation on wild impact suggestion? I really think this holds merit because when you compare it to the obvious battle leap: it's aimable, does (a lot) of damage, generates rage, and knocks down.. BM just knocks down around him, it's very bad for a final tier skill. I also thought party SP regeneration on survival would fix all BM SP problems and be a nice "party SP buff" that nobody has yet rather than going through the trouble of adding stats to gears which likely takes more work.

 

I think feral defense is actually a good skill, but the game itself doesn't make it wanted. I didn't play BM back in the CoA/AoD days but if I did, 5/5 feral defense sounds like a godsend against ratmaster and other hard bosses. I agree that it's just useless now though, and likely will be for the rest of this game's raiding life. Maybe BM could finally get an actual non-gimmicky party buff? Maybe a 1/2/3/4/5% damage decrease buff (game needs more damage mitigation buffs considering the 1 shotting going around).

 

On another note BM seems to the buggiest class I've played yet. If I get the out of range bug while using brutal strike it just locks up and I'm not able to use it at all until the invisible cooldown on the skill has passed. Also I haven't played warrior in a long time, but if you use rage strike at 100 rage doesn't it deplete to 50 rage? Why does brutal strike take all beast points when used at 100 if the skill takes 50 beast points and doesn't gain any advantages for storing more?


Edited by 9632130515120055620, 23 September 2014 - 04:24 AM.

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#32 Critspam

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 08:42 AM

You are attempting to make a PvE tank class a PvP class, please leave.


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#33 Arbalist

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 11:21 AM

You just need to properly link skills in the way they were meant to be used.......

While there are no “Popular” suggestions since not many people play beastmaster the way it was intended.

I personally haven't encountered any threat issues either except against Warriors, but I'm very curious about this statement. Wondering if you could elaborate more on this, perhaps just to compare rotations.

 

Also I haven't played warrior in a long time, but if you use rage strike at 100 rage doesn't it deplete to 50 rage? Why does brutal strike take all beast points when used at 100 if the skill takes 50 beast points and doesn't gain any advantages for storing more?

Rage Strike still consumes 100 Rage with no added benefits.

---

WIS to shoes is a nice bonus, but quite honestly I still don't see it as much of an issue. I know we have abysmally low SP, but that's what potions are for. Other classes drain HP pots, we drain SP pots. When grinding, there's always enough time to drink pots of eat food with no downtime. Even soloing Himmel's Dragon, I consume 5-6 Prime Grades at most. In a party, you won't even need that many. This is just from a PVE perspective, maybe things are different for WOE? Now this is all assuming elemental resistance won't see the light of day, but if it gets implemented, then by all means, give us more WIS.

If SP really is an issue, I'd actually rather suggest replacing the hourly Explorer Reds with the Potion Ticket which lets you choose between Explorer Reds or Blues. Different classes have different needs and this would offer a bit more flexibility overall imo.


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#34 Greven79

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 01:32 PM

I personally haven't encountered any threat issues either except against Warriors, but I'm very curious about this statement. Wondering if you could elaborate more on this, perhaps just to compare rotations.

 

Can't tell much about 'high-end' beastmasters, but AFAICT, knights can have an insane threat level (thanks to BT of course) and even monks can outthreat me if their G-Fist isn't a miss. I might catch up over time and I wouldn't call it "threat issues", but it still feels like the BM has the lowest threat level of all four tanking classes... but with all the seeds & hones out there, who knows that exactly.

 

How about the beast points generation on wild impact suggestion? I really think this holds merit because when you compare it to the obvious battle leap: it's aimable, does (a lot) of damage, generates rage, and knocks down.. BM just knocks down around him, it's very bad for a final tier skill. I also thought party SP regeneration on survival would fix all BM SP problems and be a nice "party SP buff" that nobody has yet rather than going through the trouble of adding stats to gears which likely takes more work.

 

I don't really like 1:1 skill comparisons. Why not nerf Battle Leap instead? And generally spoken, I don't like charge-points on any 10 target AoE skill. If that would be the case, the Rangers and Wizards will be next to demand Concentration / Pyro stack generation on Arrow Shower or Meteor Storm.

 

And from what I can tell by the ML grinding, the Beastmaster doesn't have significantly higher SP issues than my whirling Warrior had. And even if he did, it doesn't make the Beastmaster the ideal source for an SP party buff.

 

IMO, it would make more sense, if the Soulmaker (or maybe the Priest) would get the SP // WIS buff and the Beastmaster some sort of HP or HP regeneration buff.

 

I think feral defense is actually a good skill, but the game itself doesn't make it wanted. I didn't play BM back in the CoA/AoD days but if I did, 5/5 feral defense sounds like a godsend against ratmaster and other hard bosses. I agree that it's just useless now though, and likely will be for the rest of this game's raiding life. Maybe BM could finally get an actual non-gimmicky party buff? Maybe a 1/2/3/4/5% damage decrease buff (game needs more damage mitigation buffs considering the 1 shotting going around).

 

I liked Feral Defense (not just for the visual >_>), but never maxed it. And even right now, I'm not so sure how that skill works in combination with armor seed runes, jehoon runes or other kinds of damage reduction (f.e. Soulmaker links).

 

It also felt a bit off-placed, since the Beastmaster was still the tanking class with the highest hitpoints and the best healing skills. So the typical 40~50% while being able to act would have made more sense IMO. But as soon as the pets were introduced, the drawback of being unable to act was rendered irrelevant. A mermaid, Vador, etc. would still do the job for you.

 

In addition, keep in mind that the devs have chosen to give the Beastmaster a debuff rather than a party buff. So your armor rip is your contribution to the group actually.

 

While there are no “Popular” suggestions since not many people play beastmaster the way it was intended,...

 

WTF? What's the 'intended' or 'legimate' type to play a BM in your opinion?

 

 

 To start, having tiger form take 5 skill points to max out is very wasteful. The popular suggestion for this is to make it a 1 skill point item, I suggest 3 skill points with benefit being 20/40/60% movement speed increase.

 

Although the 3 skill points would be my favorite as well, keep in mind that there's still the 'new' Tiger form out there called Ymir Form. That's why I suggested to remove that skill or integrate it into the other shapes/forms.

 

 

My personal suggestion would be changing Feral Defense skill into either the Iron Hide or Armored Fur skill, The change would be to still have the 5 tiers of damage reduction but add damage reflection per rank. I leave the reflection percentage to the devs choice but i think rank 5 should be somewhere near 20% damage inflicted is reflected back to the attacker. My reason for this is that the defense skill lasts for 13 seconds and the player is unable to do ANYTHING else while it is active, which causes the player to lose threat in raids and lets other players bash away on you and build free combo points in PvP.

 

What the point behind all these damage reflections lately?

 

Rather than introducing such an effect that could either end up too bad or too good, it would be simplier to remove the 'inability to act' completely or replace it with an ATK/damage drawback or a "no offensive skill" restriction instead.

 

More than anything else, I would like to remove the Armor Rip // DoT // 100-beast-point triggers and add more pet-like skills instead. Since a pet that hits every 2sec isn't that different from a DoT, the beastmaster would still be able to dish out quite a lot of damage even if he would be stunned or be otherwise unable to act. And you could support that, if you would give the BM the Mass Provoke.

 

Another favorite would be, if the beastmaster would get the Water Emblem skill (renamed). Rather than healing 30% every 30sec with survival, he would heal 2% every 2sec... and would get an SP regeneration & permanental damage reduction on top of that. So screw the party heal part! You're not a priest, but a Wolverine-like Beast.


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#35 Critspam

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 05:12 PM

I'm tired of reading your post all over these forums. Go away if you have nothing constructive to add. (rules do not allow me to single out names but you can guess who)


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#36 9632130515120055620

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 03:02 AM

You are attempting to make a PvE tank class a PvP class, please leave.

Both PvE and PvP aspects of a class should be considered when throwing ideas around for them, just because PvP is not an area you enjoy doesn't mean it should be neglected. In fact the only "PvP" suggestion I made was the point generation on wild impact which will only impact BM performance in colo and WoE. That's like saying ignore half an aspect of a class; wizards have one of the best DPS outputs in the game yet are a complete shamble in PvP and it's why a lot of people just up and quit the class. Most classes can both PvE and PvP effectively, there's no reason to claim a class is "dedicated" to a certain area -- I don't know of any "PvP dedicated" class.


Edited by 9632130515120055620, 24 September 2014 - 03:08 AM.

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#37 Greven79

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 05:34 AM

I'm tired of reading your post all over these forums. Go away if you have nothing constructive to add. (rules do not allow me to single out names but you can guess who)

 

Puuu... glad you didn't mean me, because all my comments are constructive. ;)

 

F.e., I pointed out that a damage reflection is hard to keep in check. If a BM lures 20+ DW monsters, it can lead towards a high damage output. If the reflected damage also generates threat, it's a kind of a self-propelling engine. On contrast, if used against a single target, it might be almost insignificant.

 

Beside that, the amount of damage reflected might be affected by defense or (other forms of) damage reduction. As a VCR, better test your proposal by switching to a Crecentia casting a few Evanescos.

 

I explained that if the drawback is the major show-stopper, it might still be better to alter other skills or to reduce/remove the drawback. Since other forms of damage still work => pets & DoTs, I suggested to either change the skill into another "Endure" variant or - more preferrably - change the Beastmaster into a ... well a Master of/over Beasts... and add/improve pet-like skills (See RO2 BM).

______________

 

In regard of the Tiger form, I pointed out that even with lowered maximum level, the skill still has to compete with Ymir form and/or mounts. So my bet is that it won't be used that much either. That's why I explained how that skill could become more useful during fights => by making shapechanges a valid strategy and by adding a defensive bonus (dodge).


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#38 9632130515120055620

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 05:18 AM

I am actually starting to think feral defense might be a really powerful PvP ability considering you're able to cancel out of it by clicking the buff. It allows you to negate the "dumb stuff" that completely owns most classes such as imperio, shadow armor, fracture, ranger traps and frost driver. Or if you're about to die in WoE after being ganged, see if you can get defense off and have 13s available for people to heal you. It's really difficult to find skill points to spare for it, though.


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#39 rawker2

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:13 AM

After reading the VCR and made my own Beastmaster to understand their current state, these are the following I would like to share to make them fair and better:

1. Cruel Bite
I like the idea that it heals you while you deal damage. What made this skill broken is that it recovers up to 30% of your max health, per use. Seeing that this skill deals damage and recovers your health, it would be only fair that the health you recover would be instead a portion of the damage you deal and make the rate be a constant value. To compensate for this nerf, I would slightly increase the damage multiplier.
Lifesteal: 30%
Damage Multiplier(%): 250/277/305/333/361/388/416/444/472/500

2. Grizzly Form
It gets quite annoying to transform into Grizzly only to find out that you have lost a portion of your health upon transformation, ALL THE TIME. Make the transformation to take the percentage of your current health. That way, if you are currently in 50% health, you would still be at 50% of your maximum health upon transforming into Grizzly Form, vice versa.

 

3. Frenzy
I really like this skill since it doubles the rate of beast points you acquire for the entirety of its duration. What made it lackluster is that it has a relatively long cooldown. It would be great, and fair, if it doubles the amount of beastpoints gained across all levels and that the cooldown is lessened upon spending points on it. To be fair, the cooldown at level 1 will be increased to a considerable amount while maxing it will make it very appealing but not overpowered.
Beast Points obtained: 100%
Duration:20 secs.
Cooldown: 300/240/180/120/60

4. Beast Charge and Wild Impact
This really isn't game-breaking but I would rather see that this skill do a knockdown, instead of stun.
4.1 Brutal Strike
In relation to the above-mentioned fix, I would then remove the additional damage dealt to stunned targets.
 

 

These are just my opinions. Constructive criticisms will be appreciated.


Edited by rawker2, 09 October 2014 - 05:31 AM.

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#40 Greven79

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:58 AM

I already gave a feedback that wasn't welcome, so just a few notes/questions:

 

1. Cruel Bite

Keep in mind that your change could render that skill almost non-existent. Right now, the skill recovers 30% of your max. HP. It gets better the more HP you have and you don't care how much it defense your target has.

 

Let's assume you have a physical skill effect (PSE) of 2500 and no other bonuses. Then, your Cruel Bite would deal 500% as much => 12500 damage. That damage might not even get close to the 30% of your total HP and then the defense of the target is applied. Let's be generous and say that your target has a 60% defense rate and no damage reduction, so you'll end up dealing 5000 damage. That means that your bear would heal only 1500pts per Cruel Bite whereas he could have healed between 20k+ right now.

 

2. Grizzly Form

I like the idea (would support my combat shape shifting), but then the devs might have to consider to change that on every HP-changing item/buff/skill, because an Aura Armor, Steel Body, Blessing or Pontera Buff isn't that different.

 

3. Frenzy

Not that anyone cares, but additional skill levels rarely cut the cooldown below half the starting value. (See Memorize, Ice wall, etc.) I also hope you intented to make the level 1 skill as effective as the level 5... at least on the first 20sec, because this boosts the "first strike" capabilities even if you don't max it. Because a 100% bonus is equal to 50% of the original requirements, a Brutal Stike would only requires 25 rage points and triggering the Grizzly / Bear special only 50pts.

 

I'm not against any of these changes, just stating the facts.


Edited by Greven79, 09 October 2014 - 08:02 AM.

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#41 rawker2

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 10:20 AM

The healing from Cruel Bite is too good that it needs a bit of toning down. Furthermore, it overshadows Survival since it has no cooldown.What if the healing is instead treated like the Knight's Aura Heal where it is based only on your Attack Power? That looks like a better alternative.

 

the highest amount of BP we get from our generators is 15(Fury Strike hitting 3 targets). That's an instant Cruel Bite if Frenzy is up. With enough Vigor, that will cut the cooldown of the skill to merely 40 seconds, tops? which is already gives a 20-sec down time for it.


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#42 Arbalist

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 10:58 AM

Here are additional facts to help you guys, no comment on things yet because I haven't had time to read:

Fury Strike generates 10 Beast Points per target when maxed (or maybe starting at level 6, I forget) so 30 points can be generated in one attack without Frenzy. With enough Vigor, you can get Fury Strike down to 2 seconds and cycle Fury + Cruel Bite as much as you want. 

Highest BP from single target is generated from Cruel Bite (16-24). It would be tied for second highest on average if there is more than 1 target.

People didn't like it when I suggested bringing down Cruel Bite to 20% or 25% a few months ago. If your suggestion is based on Attack Power, get ready to deal complaints. Just for reference in case you'd like it for your suggestions, at master level 30 I have around 5.9k base attack, uninvested. A slight issue I see with this is then an attack-based heal will hit the VIT builds really hard. Pure VIT build like I have can bring your HP in Grizzly to 80-100k unbuffed. A Str or Agi build in Grizzly usually gets about 50 to 60k. 

Most vigor levels out at around 30% which is what I have at ML30. I think Frenzy has 120 second cooldown right? That means with vigor it'll be about 80 seconds.


Edited by Arbalist, 09 October 2014 - 11:04 AM.

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#43 rawker2

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 11:07 PM

My idea is that Cruel Bite should give the DPS type BMs the perks of having an ATK based healing while the pure VIT Builds will get more benefit from Survival. As of this moment, the only benefit of having Survival maxed is an emergency 20% heal towards your allies, getting that heal without the need to hit something, and it has no beast point requirement. To further stress the difference, I'll even suggest to increase the bonus attack given by Bear Form by as much as up to 60% at max level so that when they get the bonus from having 100 beast points and Gaia Form, their attack power will be increased by 100%. This will then make the DPS BMs more viable.

 

While I'm in the topic of making all forms differentiated, since you can only use Survival while in Tiger Form, allow them to have the fastest normal speed of all forms and probably allow all 3 tier 1 basic BM skills to be used while in this form, as well.

 

I will have to think more on this while I tinker with my BM a little more


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#44 Greven79

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:32 AM

See, Arbalist and I already had this kind of discussion before, and I suggested a significant nerf to Cruel Bite as well. He pointed out that even the idea to decrease the heal to 20% resulted in quite a few complains and quarrels and I wasn't spared either, since my suggestions were even more severe.

 

We both don't criticize your analysis that Cruel Bite is OP and that it makes Survival kind of useless. It's more a warning that a suggestion to cut it down from maybe 20k to 2k- won't bring you much love and glory.

 

Personally, I'd love to see the Heal removed from Cruel Bite and being added to Brutal Strike instead (removing the AoE there). In that way, you still have powerful insta-heals of 20k+ HPs, but the cooldown keeps the overall benefit in check (30% every 20sec isn't that far from a Survival).

 

To further stress the difference, I'll even suggest to increase the bonus attack given by Bear Form by as much as up to 60% at max level so that when they get the bonus from having 100 beast points and Gaia Form, their attack power will be increased by 100%. This will then make the DPS BMs more viable.

 

I would say that a permanental 60% ATK bonus is too much. If you like to improve the DPS form you might consider another gimmick instead.

 

While I'm in the topic of making all forms differentiated, since you can only use Survival while in Tiger Form, allow them to have the fastest normal speed of all forms and probably allow all 3 tier 1 basic BM skills to be used while in this form, as well.

 

If you can attack in the Tiger form, it's not that different from a bear or Ymir form anymore and might be considered subpar... although I'd love to see my Tiger performing a giant leap when I would use Beast Charge. >_>

 


Edited by Greven79, 10 October 2014 - 06:19 AM.

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#45 SETSUNAf6w

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 05:23 AM

I haz suggestionz for teh tigerz.

 

1. Make the tiger form a boxing tiger!!1!

 

2. Make the tiger able to use mounts, cause yo dawg I'll put a tiger on that tiger.

 

tiger-cubs-boxing-larry-nieland.jpg

 

...

 

THAT IS ALL.


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#46 Telovi

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 05:35 AM

1. Make the tiger form a boxing tiger!!1!

 

Dancing tiger is boxing tiger. Well, almost.


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#47 SETSUNAf6w

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 06:48 AM

Dancing tiger is boxing tiger. Well, almost.

 

See? The positions are already implemented, they just need boxing skills now!


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#48 Silentshadows

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 10:01 AM

I haz suggestionz for teh tigerz.

 

1. Make the tiger form a boxing tiger!!1!

 

2. Make the tiger able to use mounts, cause yo dawg I'll put a tiger on that tiger.

 

tiger-cubs-boxing-larry-nieland.jpg

 

...

 

THAT IS ALL.

OR allow people to ride on tigers... cuz well some people are slow xP


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#49 Arbalist

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 07:19 PM

Pshhf, just give BMs stronger bows to equip and fix our bow range back to 20m instead of this 3m nonsense, range tiger OP. Colo is so unbalanced and BMs are so strong now I actually kill people pretty well with normal attack tiger. Never knew that I had a passive Troll Form.


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#50 igneelsakata

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 06:40 PM

Lo único que puedo decir es el poco sp que tiene el BM pero ya que todos dicen que se arreglar con potas que mas se le puede hacer.

Esto ya es otra cosa pero me gustaría que el oso tenga su propio Ymir ya que el Ymir humano es obsoleto por mi parte(solo lo uso para ir mas rápido no mas XDD),

En si es cierto que los BM nos curamos como locos pero solo sucede mas con los mobs ya que somos tipo PVE pero en PVP cuando todo se decide en cuestion de sec. se podria decir que somos basura de la basura, sin ofender.

 

Ademas si nos quieren bajar la grizzly form a 50% max hp y 30% def y aumentar a 500% el threat, lo mejor seria tener un cambiar el federal defense por un buff de mejoramiento de defensa no pido un gran buff si no uno que valga la pena gastar los puntos de skill.

 

Sobre el tigre me gustaria que fuera de 3 puntos el cual daria 15%/35%/50%

 

Sobre el rage smash esta obsoleto en ningun uso pero creo que no tiene nada que ver aun que me gustaria que se cambiara por una skill passive de algun tipo de que nose, lo mejor seria verlo entre todos.

 

Lo otro sobre nuestra defensa lo veria despues si acceptan mis puntos de vista. Aunque por mi parte estamos sobreviviendo con lo que tenemos, total somo maestro de bestias, la naturaleza es nuestro hogar.

 

ATTE Renshiken


Edited by igneelsakata, 16 October 2014 - 06:44 PM.

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