55 replies to this topic

[Campitor]

So one of the biggest problems with catching no delay users is establishing the absolute minimum cast times for various skills and teaching each of the GM team members what no delay looks like. So we want to create characters with the absolutely fastest cast time without any regards to damage out put. We would like your help with this as we don't know all the classes as well as we should.

 

First were looking for stat/gear/buff builds for the following class/skill combinations.

 

Sniper - Arrow Shower

Lord Knight - Bowling Bash

Lord Knight - Bowling Bash vs Reflect

 

 

Are there any other skills we should make training materials for as well?

[Viri]

Keep in mind that the speed in which you can cast standing on the same cell is totally different for some skills(particularly bowling bash) compared to when you're moving(skill dancing or whatever you want to call it to break the animation)

[iamvrypwrful]

I don't think you will be able to tell the difference for anything except for arrow shower and BB. These two are really obvious, most players can spot it with half an eye open.

Edited by iamvrypwrful, 05 August 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[IlliterateGaming]

For those who don't know the difference:

 

Edited by IlliterateGaming, 05 August 2014 - 08:49 AM.

[Godly1]

BB is a 1/2 thruth because of reflect from a paladin.

 

If you have high enough aspd and are bbing a paladin you can replicate nodelay effect easily enough.

 

 

[Gn1ydnu]

If you want I can work with somebody (maybe xellie?) to make a video showing legit vs no delay for any classes you want. I'll do it assuming you don't ban my chars of course.

I'll even show the difference for lks as legit, legit vs reflect, and ndly.


Edit: I want to help the gms learn so that they don't ban legit players by accident. Example would be a gm thinking a lk is ndly but it's really vs reflect (this is why I'll show you the differences).

Please pm me or let me know Camp so I can get started.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 05 August 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[Viri]

I made multiple videos and submitted them like years ago of how to spot it and cases when it could actually be legit and all that. That was literally like 3-4 years ago now though.

[colo]

is this a joke? This issue has been arround for YEARS! lol and just now something like this comes up? haha anyways...

 

cast delay, if is not a fixed cast delay time, is based off users ASPD(not necessarily AGI stat) and weather or not that certain skill has a cast time(cast time is different from cast delay) as well. IRO classic is basic delay is set at .3 sec with 190ASPD (max aspd in classic), let me explain:

 

if the user has 190 aspd, the minimum delay he will have to wait to repetitively  use a certain skill w/o any cast time or fixed cast delay is .3sec. so every .3sec he can use the skill.

 

so based on that, cast delay increases as the users aspd is lower, there for if you see someone spamming none stop and you being GMs go on that players character and it only has like 150 ASPD that person is more than likely abusing a bug, or using something to get around it.

 

in the case of lord knights if i remember correctly there's a way to get around the delay by getting rid of one of the position sprites while the lord knight casts the skill bowling bash it works kind of like chain sonic blow for assassin cross. (but this was two years ago but i'm guessing now day is pretty much the same thing if new cheats and ways to abuse the game have come to light lol)

 

this was during a woe about three years ago

 

 

 

and this is the general idea..

 

 

not sure how it works with arrow shower but more than likely is the same jiz.

 

 

 

your welcome GM team.

 

[Xellie]

If you want I can work with somebody (maybe xellie?) to make a video showing legit vs no delay for any classes you want. I'll do it assuming you don't ban my chars of course.

I'll even show the difference for lks as legit, legit vs reflect, and ndly.


Edit: I want to help the gms learn so that they don't ban legit players by accident. Example would be a gm thinking a lk is ndly but it's really vs reflect (this is why I'll show you the differences).

Please pm me or let me know Camp so I can get started.

 

I am willing to help

 

I would also like to demonstrate the differences in user videos between those using nodelay and those not, so we don't see LKs getting banned for BBing reflected players when all other LKs in their footage have an animation.
 

 

Sniper - Arrow Shower

99dex, 99 agi, buff your aspd as high as possible via gear (AS has no cast time)

use agi food, dex food, (I think aid zerk works, not sure but riff/AAR does not) and the aspd boosting juice, I forget the name (Celamine juice?)

 

 

Lord Knight - Bowling Bash

99 agi/99 dex, bowling bash has a cast time.

 

Always stand in a magic strings, go dex/int on the minstrel.

Use one hand quicken with a sword (requires link) agi up, bless, dex food, agi food a thorny shield and bison horn. That should give you the fastest possible sword animation.

Then try it with both a spear and a mjolnir. Use a berserk pot, all of the mentioned above buffs (minus one hand quicken) and a high agi impressive riff with full music lessons.

 

Lord Knight - Bowling Bash vs Reflect

Try an average build or slightly faster than average build of around 60 base dex and 50 agi, I think. My LK is built like that, but you'll find that even with 1agi the speed becomes irrelevant vs reflect. Use all setups from above.

 

Edited by Xellie, 05 August 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Viri]

Also it's harder to prove but ndl on champion is like the difference between night and day.

[thatfool]

so what allowed no delay to exist? it sound like u cant fix the root of the problem, so thats why u want to spent extra time on catching cheater

[Viri]

Honestly all you'd have to do is put a fixed, unreducable delay(unaffected by kiel/strings) on all skills of like .2 seconds and it'd fix the issue.

[Inubashiri]

Check my ticket history and you'll find all you need to know about nodelay also I've shown most of you how it works, unfortunately if you can't get kRO to address the problem on the server level this is nothing but a waste of time.

[Viri]

The client for some reason is the thing that manages how many packets per second can be sent. That's also the issue with autopot, if you use a consumable without going through the client(direct packet injection) you can use between 45 and 50 of a particular consumable per second.

 

Additionally anything used to "auto target", meaning just throwing packets to the server hoping the target specified is in range(if they aren't there are no repercussions, it doesn't DC you after X amount of bad packets or anything) in whatever intervals absolutely bogs down the server and ruins gameplay for everyone.

[Hyperballad]

You know you're at a low when you have to teach the GMs game mechanics.

Those "your case will be escalated to a RO specialist" ticket replies..

 

Anyway, a 150 INT Maestro will give skills 0 reuse delay with strings if it helps testing.

 

Why is this Classic only?

Edited by Hyperballad, 05 August 2014 - 12:38 PM.

[xMSGx]

Yeah why is this classic only? Need some enforcement on renewal as well

[Tolrin]

The truth of the matter is that any player with sufficiently low ping can replicate an animation edit by clicking the ground in-between clicks, a quick search on jRO knight videos will show what a player with 20~30 ms ping can do, which means that it is largely impossible to tell the difference between a good player and a "good player."

 

The thing that people refer to as "no-delay" is actually just a client side edit that replicates the effects of canceling your animation without the requirement of extra clicks by shortening or removing the animations associated with using a skill.  As it replicates the effect of a 'high skill' game mechanic, this means that functionally it is impossible to tell the difference between someone using an edit and someone clicking a lot remotely, however using game-guard or some other similar invasive anti-hack software, it would probably be possible to simply ensure that players had an unedited client with a local check.

 

A secure game client would go a lot further towards stopping abuse than trying to isolate and ban individuals that may or may not be abusing anything more than sloppy game design.  It shouldn't be that difficult to check sections of the grf/exe for changes and prevent connection.

[Viri]

That is flat out not true for certain skills, especially arrow shower as well as a few other skills.

[ElenaGilbert]

Arrow shower ndl is sooo op lol but u can dance arrow shower btw

[Viri]

Yeah but if they're standing still and spamming it's pretty obvious what's going on.

[Inubashiri]

It shouldn't be that difficult to check sections of the grf/exe for changes and prevent connection.

 

Except the GRF is written to each time you open the patcher and thus changes even if there isn't something to patch.  As for the exe it was done before but it caused more problems than it solved, it also undid all the dev stuff ren and I have done and I don't think you wanna go back to having spam all over the screen for one.

 

 

The problem is at the server end.

Edited by Inubashiri, 05 August 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Xellie]

Yeah but if they're standing still and spamming it's pretty obvious what's going on.

 

For example

 

The LK in this video is standing still and hitting a target that obviously doesn't have reflect - this is obviously nodelay.

 

 

[thatfool]

lol

[Xellie]

I have lots of example videos actually (nothing personal against the users) that could be useful tools.

[Viri]

With that many in a row, yeah it's pretty obvious. If it were just 2-3 it could be lag of some sort.

 

NDL lets you do some wacky stuff like spam raging palm strike and arrow shower which are near impossible to pull off in any capacity close to what can be done without NDL. Bowling bash at least you can get pretty good results with high dex/aspd but obviously not like that.^

Edited by Viri, 05 August 2014 - 02:22 PM.