55 replies to this topic

[Xellie]

exactly, you can chain one or two BB/DSs, MAYBE 3. Unless you're hitlocked in some way, you're going to fail after a couple or have to move.

Edited by Xellie, 05 August 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[Tolrin]

The problem is not at the server side, and even if it was, the server architecture is impossible to change.  The problem with attempting to judge whether someone is using an edited client by watching is that it is full of false positives cause by latency.

 

It would, however, be very easy to check the portions of the GRF that pertain to character animations for changes, and either prevent connection, or issue suspensions based on that information, which would be far more accurate than anything else.

[Viri]

I think the best I could do was 3-4 of any skill before the client/visual lag would catch up and i'd miss one without NDL.(consistently at least, when I played often?)

 

With a NDL client you can do the equivalent with your eyes close and just mashing the key pretty much, there's a little bit of timing to it to get the fastest/most optimized number of skills per second but the timing window is enormous comparatively.

Edited by Viri, 05 August 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Viri]

Just add server side delays to skills, just .2 or .3 seconds would be sufficient.

 

 

Additionally if a person goes over like 50-100 bad packets in a short period of time the server should disconnect them. I remember at one point it was like... 3 and that was way too much because in lag if you clicked a little you'd DC yourself.

[Gn1ydnu]

This video shows a pure NDLY LK. The saddest part is the attitude that the player has towards cheating (PLEASE read the chat).

 

Edit: At 2:21 I open equips so that you can see it has no reflect gear. This was the reason why I stopped helping that guild, the first time. 

 

 

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 05 August 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Themes]

While we're on the topic of various things. I recall someone posted a screenshot on Tirades of a GM (Campitor?) commenting on the use of the "harmless" client edits (noshake, pms). Are these things legal now?

 

It's almost like we need another thread to clear the air the same way we did with RCX after launch. Just let players know that here's what you can do, here's what you cant and if you're caught doing something you shouldnt be that there will be punishments.

[Viri]

I like how that LK can't chain that well even with NDL on, it's p bad. I hope they have like 200+ ping...

[Inubashiri]

The problem is not at the server side, and even if it was, the server architecture is impossible to change.  The problem with attempting to judge whether someone is using an edited client by watching is that it is full of false positives cause by latency.

 

It would, however, be very easy to check the portions of the GRF that pertain to character animations for changes, and either prevent connection, or issue suspensions based on that information, which would be far more accurate than anything else.

 

That is wrong beyond wrong, no one person's GRF is the same as the others.  Even if they weren't, doing something like an MD5 check on a 1 gig file every time the patcher is opened is ridiculous as well as like I said the GRF is written to EACH TIME you open the patcher, don't believe me, open two clients and watch a "Failed to write to file" error pop up thus each time it would change and make the previous checksum an orphan file with no purpose.

 

Just add server side delays to skills, just .2 or .3 seconds would be sufficient.

 

 

Additionally if a person goes over like 50-100 bad packets in a short period of time the server should disconnect them. I remember at one point it was like... 3 and that was way too much because in lag if you clicked a little you'd DC yourself.

 

This is the best solution since players can't modify the server as opposed to their client.

[iamvrypwrful]

While we're on the topic of various things. I recall someone posted a screenshot on Tirades of a GM (Campitor?) commenting on the use of the "harmless" client edits (noshake, pms). Are these things legal now?

 

It's almost like we need another thread to clear the air the same way we did with RCX after launch. Just let players know that here's what you can do, here's what you cant and if you're caught doing something you shouldnt be that there will be punishments.

 

zoom/no shake/party window spam should be legal imo

 

quality of life "cheats"

Edited by iamvrypwrful, 05 August 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[Viri]

no shake should be built into the client, that -_- is the worst.

[Campitor]

While we're on the topic of various things. I recall someone posted a screenshot on Tirades of a GM (Campitor?) commenting on the use of the "harmless" client edits (noshake, pms). Are these things legal now?

 

It's almost like we need another thread to clear the air the same way we did with RCX after launch. Just let players know that here's what you can do, here's what you cant and if you're caught doing something you shouldnt be that there will be punishments.

Certain things like RCX are okay.  Disabling the shaking of the camera by it self is okay but the problem is like RCX there is a part of the program that disabled the shaking that is very bad and if a user is caught using those function suspension will result. When in doubt about a certain function ask.

[Themes]

zoom/no shake/party window spam should be legal imo

 

quality of life "cheats"

 

I'm sure there's plenty of people who run the edits because they dont really impact gameplay. But it would be nice to not only have them clarified but distributed to the people who want to run them. There's probably plenty of people (me ) who dont have access to that sort of stuff if it were to be given the OK.

 

Edit: We're talking about hexing the client or whatever to stop the client from doing its thing and opening PMs when double clicking or shaking. Not anything RCX has control over (as far as I know?). I'm sure the people who do it/have a client can explain it better than I can.

Edited by Themes, 05 August 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[Xellie]

RCX never disabled shake, that is another *BAD* program that should not be used ever.

 

However, noshake is a direct client edit also.

[Acowlyte]

so what allowed no delay to exist? it sound like u cant fix the root of the problem, so thats why u want to spent extra time on catching cheater

 

Honestly all you'd have to do is put a fixed, unreducable delay(unaffected by kiel/strings) on all skills of like .2 seconds and it'd fix the issue.

 

There IS a thing that has been developed by 3rd parties to fix the exploit that permits use of NDL. It's called Adelay and is vastly used by a unofficial servers. And if I can record, even Aegis-based servers can make use of that.

 

I'm pretty sure it's possible to fix the exploit entirely and not rely on GMs to ban people and eventually get legal players banned by accident.

 

http://adelays.ragnawork.com/

 

I'm not telling you guys to make use of it, I'm telling you that it's possible to fix everything.

 

There's also a article explaining how delay works on Ragnarok at their website:

http://adelays.ragna...com/?page_id=34

 

Their Youtube channel has some videos explaining how it works:

https://www.youtube....laysforagnawork

 

 

 

inb4 getting banned by violating something

 

If these links are illegal, please remove it and I'll send them via PM or something for you guys at Gravity to read. I'm just trying to help. ;-;

Edited by Acowlyte, 05 August 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[iamvrypwrful]

that's pretty cool

[Inubashiri]

Don't think its so much illegal, probably deep in the grey area, but I don't think they'll go for that because they'll want the source code to it, we had to turn over quite a bit and jump a lot of hoops to get the stuff we've done in and that took a few years of trust building ;_;  Also I don't think it would fit right into Aegis since it seems to be based on all the popular p.server emulators then there is the issue of what if kRO changes something significant on the server binaries, then its broken.

 

Realistically an inhouse home brewed reverse proxy could be made that would sit in front of RO's server forwarding packets that could have a series of filters on it, we first thought of it for the spamming issue but its quite the heavy lift for two people who have day jobs lol and then there is the issue that kRO wasn't supportive of it and if they changed something it would just render that inert.

 

Also you have to buy it, and pretty sure that would kill any license agreement that is with homebase, cause even the dev ren and I do was kinda like...yeah we don't support that but we don't opposite so you're on your own with it.

Edited by Inubashiri, 05 August 2014 - 06:59 PM.

[Acowlyte]

Yeah, I understand that.

 

I know it's pretty hard to suggest or try to fix things with the kRO team. But is NDL a problem on renewal too? Maybe if we (you) point the kRO team the impact this exploit has on the game, they will do something about it... Someday.

 

Well, for now we need to rely on the GM team.

 

(Their article about delay can be useful anyway).

Edited by Acowlyte, 05 August 2014 - 07:22 PM.

[needmorezleep]

Adelays is horrible and terribly abused to the point where the effects are much worse than if people were using nodelay skills like Bomb, Ganbantein, Lex,  and Kaupe would be out of control in woe if they added this. They could however put the character sprites directly into the .exe like other pservers did way way back then. Another solution is to do a check on a data.ini and have a specified grf for sprites that must always remain on top.

[Hrishi]

I like how that LK can't chain that well even with NDL on, it's p bad. I hope they have like 200+ ping...

 

That's crim lol, remember him?

[Viri]

Not surprised lol.

[azor123]

That is wrong beyond wrong, no one person's GRF is the same as the others.  Even if they weren't, doing something like an MD5 check on a 1 gig file every time the patcher is opened is ridiculous as well as like I said the GRF is written to EACH TIME you open the patcher

 

 

 

it would be easy to create a new grf, ie named delay.grf, that would have priority over data.grf, cdata.grf.

this grf would only contains the animation sprites (~5mo max), and it would never be updated.

 

that would permit to check the md5 client-side, and match it with the one stored server-side.

the only thing left to do would be to put a md5 check on the client (so ppl can't just ask the client to load another grf than delay.grf)

Edited by azor123, 06 August 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[AMzobud]

Adelays is horrible and terribly abused to the point where the effects are much worse than if people were using nodelay skills like Bomb, Ganbantein, Lex,  and Kaupe would be out of control in woe if they added this. They could however put the character sprites directly into the .exe like other pservers did way way back then. Another solution is to do a check on a data.ini and have a specified grf for sprites that must always remain on top.

 

I've never seen adelays being abused.

 

With current NDL, Lex,Kaupe and many other skills are already out of control.

[Inubashiri]

it would be easy to create a new grf, ie named delay.grf, that would have priority over data.grf, cdata.grf.

this grf would only contains the animation sprites (~5mo max), and it would never be updated.

 

that would permit to check the md5 client-side, and match it with the one stored server-side.

the only thing left to do would be to put a md5 check on the client (so ppl can't just ask the client to load another grf than delay.grf)

 

MD5 still isn't that great to use tbh these days, easily crackable, better to use SDA-1.  Problem is GRF file format is just archaic in general as well.

[Themes]

I think if you (the GMs) are really interested on trying to prevent some of these cheats, that it might be time for you guys to familiarise yourselves with them a little more. There's plenty of different things that people are doing ranging from GRF edits to packet sending to client edits. If you dont understand what these things are or how they're impacting gameplay I really dont think you have any hope of preventing them from being used or properly banning the people using them.

 

I recommend you look to some of the community to get your hands on what some people are using. Hopefully after some experimentation you guys will be able to understand some of the differences between these programs/edits and help us stop people from using them.

[Xellie]

What I can't get my head around is the people trying to prevent enforcement crying about being "defamed". I did not post that video to attack anybody, it's just very unusual to get footage of an LK nodelaying (who isn't even pretending to dance) where you can say with 100% certainty there is no reflect gear.

 

smh, if you care so much, please post some information/videos/demonstrations to help educate the staff so that false bans do not happen. It's taken long enough to get action taken on these cheaters, I think it's even worse that community members would attempt to prevent this.

 

I assume this as the other video was not removed.

 

All this talk about "false positives" is tripe. The GM team are closer to the server than pretty much all other players and can monitor a player over extended periods of time. I would be concerned if they were banning off 2~3 chained skills. But the whole point of demonstrating the builds, how it all works is to actually show that very fact.