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Proposal for Scouts [By Feuer]


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#1 Feuer

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 06:34 PM

Ok so I'm going to give in to the community's + scout's need for some type of improvement. 

 

The issue being relayed in Lack of Damage, lack of survival.

With that they're being hit on both ends. I'm going to propose a [A] or [B] style fix.

 

Option A:

Trap Shots [Uniques]

 

What do they do? Essentially it gives the Bow scout the unique option to become more survival + tactile orientated by being able to Shoot their traps at enemy's, negating the need to Set them. 

Believe it or not it does come at a price. Not having pre-set traps means if an enemy gets out and they're in close quarters, your steel trap is now on cool down, and you don't have access to it, like wise with the aspeed + mute traps. 

 

Obviously there is the benefit of being able to directly trigger the trap instantly on a foe. So here's the list.

 

Trap Shot: Siphon [Unique]

Cost: 2 sp

Requires: Siphon Trap Lvl 5

Cooldown shared with: Siphon Trap.

 

Trap Shot: Steel [Unique]

Cost: 2 sp

Requires: Steel Trap 5

Cooldown shared with: Steel Trap.

 

I'm not going to actually propose all 3 be made unique, just the 2 key ones that scout find the most useful. This is because of a fundamental flaw.

Trap shot would allow the scout to set a siphon/steel trap[s]/combo, wait for the CD, then use them as an active without trigger the set traps or be blocked by the CD.

 

Or 

 

Option B:

 

Wounding Shot [Unique]

Cost: 2 sp

Requires: Triple Shot Lvl 5

Cooldown 12 seconds

Effect:

A carefully aimed shot pierces the foe and causes significant trauma + bleeding for a short time

Status: Bleeding

400/second for 5 seconds @ 4

or

500/second for 4 seconds @ 5

[Linked to Steel Trap [Unique]]

 

Sacrifice Beast/Hawk: [Unique]

Cost: 2 sp

Cooldown 40 seconds

Effect:

Dismisses the Current Hawk summon and restores 50% of your character HP over 20 seconds [2.5% / second]

[This would require Hawk + Beast to have a cooldown relative to the sacrifice, probably 25 seconds - 35 seconds should* do it I would imagine.]

[Linked to Siphon Trap [Unique]]

 

So why the Bleed?

Technically, users aren't used to being a snipe / hit'n'run class. The bleed allows you to keep a focus on maintaining your distance from an enemy. The sacrifice even with the long cooldown gives you access to recoup/recover while stealthed. Yes, technically just giving Camo a recovery effect would be easier but what I had in mind was the fact that Scouts feel left out of the damage department.

So theoretically I wanted to instill in this proposal the usage of either more DPS + Damage orientation [Via Bleed and usage of pets] or survival [by adding extra utility to traps]

The linked between the uniques would prevent too heavy a impact by restricting those options to "lanes". Can't always get the best of both worlds. 

 

So that for now is where I'll leave this proposal at. Hope it stirs some good debates, well mannered improvements, and eventually something we + the staff can all compromise on and assist or fletched friends. 

 

~Cheers Feuer


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#2 Feuer

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 02:14 AM

Was expecting a volley of replys to this, interesting that noones responded. Perhaps the scout issue is not so relevant anymore.
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#3 iMatt

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:03 AM

Was expecting a volley of replys to this, interesting that noones responded. Perhaps the scout issue is not so relevant anymore.

 

fu was at work reply inc btw shouldn t this be in the purposals/suggestions section?


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#4 iMatt

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:25 AM



Ok so I'm going to give in to the community's + scout's need for some type of improvement. 

Option A:

Trap Shots [Uniques]

 

What do they do? Essentially it gives the Bow scout the unique option to become more survival + tactile orientated by being able to Shoot their traps at enemy's, negating the need to Set them. 

Believe it or not it does come at a price. Not having pre-set traps means if an enemy gets out and they're in close quarters, your steel trap is now on cool down, and you don't have access to it, like wise with the aspeed + mute traps. 

 

Obviously there is the benefit of being able to directly trigger the trap instantly on a foe. So here's the list.

 

Trap Shot: Siphon [Unique]

Cost: 2 sp

Requires: Siphon Trap Lvl 5

Cooldown shared with: Siphon Trap.

 

Trap Shot: Steel [Unique]

Cost: 2 sp

Requires: Steel Trap 5

Cooldown shared with: Steel Trap.

 

I'm not going to actually propose all 3 be made unique, just the 2 key ones that scout find the most useful. This is because of a fundamental flaw.

Trap shot would allow the scout to set a siphon/steel trap[s]/combo, wait for the CD, then use them as an active without trigger the set traps or be blocked by the CD.

 

as long as the set up time of the traps even with an range ability be that high its totally useless - i would love to see if a stun into trap combination would actually work - this would mean 1second setup time - or it stays useless

 

Option B:

 

Wounding Shot [Unique]

Cost: 2 sp

Requires: Triple Shot Lvl 5

Cooldown 12 seconds

Effect:

A carefully aimed shot pierces the foe and causes significant trauma + bleeding for a short time

Status: Bleeding

400/second for 5 seconds @ 4

or

500/second for 4 seconds @ 5 (uptime/damage relation makes not so mutch sense considering its high cooldown)

 

 

basically an additional DoT with 2k damage? seems legit - slight damage improve always welcome - i m still not sure if it would fix scouts problems as standalone but probably a good start - don't forget we don't want to push the scout into "OP"-ness

 

Sacrifice Beast/Hawk: [Unique]

Cost: 2 sp

Cooldown 40 seconds

Effect:

Dismisses the Current Hawk summon and restores 50% of your character HP over 20 seconds [2.5% / second]

[This would require Hawk + Beast to have a cooldown relative to the sacrifice, probably 25 seconds - 35 seconds should* do it I would imagine.]

 

If the relation between skillpoints that have to be invested and effect is right then it might work -  it could also instead of a 50% of hp pool add the recovery-Heal over time effect (character level * 2/second over 20 seconds heal) -  I am (even if that sounds crazy) afraid of its possible skill cost so I would prefer Hawk level 5 only as requirement

 

So why the Bleed?

Technically, users aren't used to being a snipe / hit'n'run class.

 

After one year people should be used to it - the problem is that too many classes survive through the snipe burst of scouts easily - champs knights mages(manshielded) clerics in general every class with decent defense survives scouts easily.

 

The bleed allows you to keep a focus on maintaining your distance from an enemy. The sacrifice even with the long cooldown gives you access to recoup/recover while stealthed. Yes, technically just giving Camo a recovery effect would be easier but what I had in mind was the fact that Scouts feel left out of the damage department.

So theoretically I wanted to instill in this proposal the usage of either more DPS + Damage orientation [Via Bleed and usage of pets] or survival [by adding extra utility to traps]

The linked between the uniques would prevent too heavy a impact by restricting those options to "lanes". Can't always get the best of both worlds. 

 

So that for now is where I'll leave this proposal at. Hope it stirs some good debates, well mannered improvements, and eventually something we + the staff can all compromise on and assist or fletched friends. 

 

~Cheers Feuer

 

Alright time to add some of my suggestions here again:

 

Suggestion 1:

 

Improve the effects of elemental Arrows. Currently the elemental arrows exist but get barely used because they are useless compared to what other skills provide (high skill power/low debuff effects but still more than "just" normal arrows)

 

I know there are changes on the deleted planned but I would love to see if these Arrows would add debuffs which are stackable:

 

Example:

 

Fire Arrow adds a burn effect of 100/second over 4 seconds - stackable without a cap - means if a scout is able to stack the burn on a target it sooner or later becomes a problem for this target if it doesn't react to it (by a mute stun or w/e on the scout).

 

Frost Arrow adds a slow effect of 100 mspeed down over 4 seconds - stackable without cap - means if the target does not react to the scout it will sooner or later end up completly frozen (of course still able to use skills/attacks etc).

 

Why 4 seconds? because on this way the scout can always use Fire Arrow - normal attack - another skill - normal attack - Fire Arrow; He would be forced to keep the Fire Arrow always on cooldown + can still use other skills. Why a normal attack between the skills? Because otherwise scouts get stuck in animations - caused by spamming the skills.

 

So my suggestion: improve the elemental Arrows and make them useful.

 

Suggestion 2:

 

Improved Camouflage - list of possible changes here:

 

-reduced cooldown to make scout more compareable to raiders (from 50 seconds down to 30 would only be fair considering the 20 seconds on raider stealth)

 

-HP regeneration based on the recovery HoT

 

-traps in stealth plantable without getting decloacked

 

-getting a buff when leaving camouflage like +XX% AP or something (example: Unique Camouflage: +15% AP for 10 seconds)

 

Suggestion 3:

 

Critical Focus should add additional crit to scouts - it is nice that all benefit from Critical focus but scouts should benefit more than others from it:

 

-Critical focus adds additional 5% crit only for scouts

 

(this would be a low influence considering the low base crit of scouts in general)

 

Suggestion 4:

 

Bourgs have Weapon Augment(and the launcher thingy which I forgot the name of).

Champs have Berserk.

Raiders have the stacking passives.

Mages have stacking passives.

 

What did scouts get? traps - no offense but that was very poorly executed.

 

What could be added for scouts?

 

A skill compareable to Berserk (no stun immuninty or w/e that would be just lame) that adds for example +XXX dex or the listed HoT with balanced downtime/uptime (50% uptime should be fine)

In general the scout is still really loveless designed - the mechanics of the listed classes got massivly changed through their new abilites but nothing changed on scouts.


Edited by iMatt, 21 August 2014 - 04:29 AM.

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#5 Feuer

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 05:08 AM

Quick note cause I forgot to specify, the trap shots instantly trigger, consider it a primed trap that activates on "impact" of hitting the target it is shot at.
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#6 bl0b

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:13 AM

From what I understand, the trap shots are basically active debuff skills, but have a longer cooldown then just setting the traps?. As for the summon sacrifice skill [Which is a cool idea btw] and summons would have a 25-35 second cooldown?. Regarding wounding shot, I think the DoT should be increased, 2k in 4-5 seconds isn't much, there's already a Phoenix Arrow  with similar effects. 

 

I second iMatts suggestions, they're all pretty reasonable. I have a few ideas, but first need to exterminate the laziness and gather enough will power to put them down in writing. 

 

Was expecting a volley of replies to this, interesting that no ones responded. Perhaps the scout issue is not so relevant any more.

 

There was a similar thread regarding scouts, Scout Discussion by NoobMiester. There were quite a number of proposals listed there and nothing changed even the slightest bit, I understand the devs were busy with the data base update, but I still think they could've done something better then increase the trigger radius of the traps, which I am not a fan of. So maybe that's why I'm not really hyped about a new scout thread, unless the devs give us a hint that they acknowledge that scouts are underpowered and are willing to do something about it.

 

The End


Edited by bl0b, 21 August 2014 - 09:13 AM.

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#7 Vincent777

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 12:16 PM

Let's start with a better stat on epic and exalted bow. I didn't check all weapon, but all of them seem to have a good balance exept bow.

 

For exemple with the raider dual weapon :

- 13x ap on the weapon and 15xx ap on the base character stat --> It's almost 10% of your ap

- 13x acc on the weapon and 15xx acc on the base character stat --> It's almost 10% of your acc

 

Now with the scout,

- 8% atk speed, on the weapon and 80% on the base character stat --> It's 10% of your atk speed which is fine

- 5x dodge on the weapon and 2 000  on the base character stat (without dodge equipement) -->  It's 3% of your current dodge just ridiculous

 

Moreover, dodge is a def stat and any weapon in epic (lvl 200) or exalted have a def stat exept bow.

 

Please apply a better stat on bow like ap + cri as axe.

 

Regarding the suggestion 2 from iMatt, i would like to see a camouflage improvement :

- Reduce cooldown from 50sec to 30 sec

- Give the possibility to overtake the cap of 50% cri during 10 sec when leaving camouflage

 

 


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#8 Feuer

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:13 AM

Yes the community has indeed proposed many solutions, the issue is that there never a conclusion reached that could be forwarded to the staff and a solid and backed up proposal. Which is my goal here, to get scouts back at it in a way that fits their designed role and has a logical backing to it. So I'm encouraging more discussion here so we can get it nailed down.
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#9 Leonis

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:01 PM

unless the devs give us a hint that they acknowledge that scouts are underpowered and are willing to do something about it.

Consider this the official acknowledgement that Scouts are intended to be given improvement attention along with a few other classes we feel lack some diversity and potential build choices.
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#10 Feuer

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 02:13 AM

Woops.. Thanks for the post Leo. Perhaps the community will start discussing more thoroughly now :)
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#11 Leeny

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 06:04 PM

Honestly I agree with everything iMatt posted about scouts


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#12 Valakas

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 06:47 PM

I think this thread http://forums.warppo...out-discussion/ enjoyed quite a number of support from fellow scouts. Unfortunately like bl0b said, not enough attention was at least hinted so it all went down the monsoon drain. 

But since Leo now mentioned "Consider this the official acknowledgement that Scouts are intended to be given improvement attention along with a few other classes we feel lack some diversity and potential build choices. " 

Can we know what's the developer's angle on this issue ? It may be better than us just suggesting and suggesting again like before this. What kind of improvement do you have in mind now ? Although we've been saying this for a looong time and the fact is that today, bow scouts are 90% dead in CD, lets get something done and bring back the robin hoods. 


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#13 Feuer

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 11:12 PM

What they have in mind is generated by what problems are being reported, if you want to actually contribute, first help diagnose the problem.
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#14 bl0b

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:45 AM

Let's start with changing the 59 dodge stat on the Piercing Arc, it is inferior compared to the stats on other epic weapon classes. For example, 135 AP, 76 Crit, 147 accuracy!, The dodge counter stat, accuracy, is almost triple the dodge stat on the bow. Either it should be increased to equal the accuracy stat or change it to a different stat all together since I don't see bow scouts relying on dodge for anything.

Baby steps :P

Edit : Vincent777 has written something similar a few posts above this too.

Edited by bl0b, 20 September 2014 - 10:02 AM.

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#15 iMatt

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:36 AM

kinda funny just criticized that this weekend in rep forum :/


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#16 bl0b

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 09:54 AM

I have been mentioning that for as long as I can remember. Told it to a class rep when class reps where a thing. Post it on the forums a few times too(cant seem to find where though).

@Leonis. Thanks for the official acknowledgement :).
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#17 Leonis

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 08:43 AM

Giving this another nudge.

 

Scouts are undergoing their review in October. We will be going over everything that's been proposed and suggested via the Class Reps for helping improve the Scout's role.

 

Valakas, as for what kind of improvements we have in mind, we're turning to the community to show us what they feel would be best for the class to improve them. We will give all the suggestions careful consideration to make sure they remain within the design scope of the class' abilities and play style.


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#18 Leeny

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:23 PM

So scouts should be finished being reviewed by the end of this month correct?


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#19 iMatt

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:25 PM

bit delayed by several "things" but yes, but probably not finished till 31th


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#20 bl0b

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 12:39 AM

Regarding PvM, scouts, both CrossBow and Bow, need an Impact arrow (PvM) with lower a cooldown then the current one, say around 10, maybe 12 seconds. Why? Mobs are vast in number, having to wait 20 seconds to use it again is a little ridiculous when there's like 100 of them. Not going into much detail here, but scouts(Except knights ofcourse) have the lowest damage out put when it comes to normal attacks(and with the mob defence increase it's worse, even with the new gems), they rely heavily on skills to do most of the damage, so maybe a new unique PvM Impact arrow with lower cooldown? or change the current bow scout web arrow, thats the worst unique pvm skill out there, dodge down is useless, mspeed down you can just clamp arrow if you need a little luring, attack speed down is the only debuff in the skill that might be useful, not to mention the skill power being lower then entangling arrow (attackspeed down). 


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#21 Bendersmom

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 07:16 AM

I have been mentioning that for as long as I can remember. Told it to a class rep when class reps where a thing. Post it on the forums a few times too(cant seem to find where though).

@Leonis. Thanks for the official acknowledgement :).

I vote Blob for scout class rep.  Maybe replace any inactive ones.


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#22 Leeny

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 09:38 AM

bit delayed by several "things" but yes, but probably not finished till 31th

 

It is still delayed right? because october is over and it isn't updated yet


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#23 bl0b

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 02:31 AM

I vote Blob for scout class rep.  Maybe replace any inactive ones.

NoobMeister Has been reinstated as scout rep  :happy:


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#24 Feuer

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 02:52 AM

Lower CD [shared] on Impact also Means you can Impact PvM then PvP in quicker succession. This makes the skill that much more powerful when in a GA Mode [CD] where you have people using summons + pvp. Always try to remember the skills that have uniques affixed share the CD's/GCD's of their counterpart. The idea would be perfectly fine however if there was a new skill, unrelated to Impact, but could function the same way as you want it to, this makes it not affect the PvP Aspect. 


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#25 bl0b

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 07:51 AM

You're right Feuer, I thought of that, but I honestly don't think it'll make much of a difference in PvP instances, I don't see anyone wasting an Impact Arrow on a summons and you could kill them quick enough with other skills. Quick fixes for this, I don't know if this is possible, but when the suggested PvM impact arrow is used, the cooldown on the other impact arrows would start and last the usual 20 seconds. Oooooooooooooooor make summons pvp :P. Or let it be, if you use impact on a mob type then the cooldown is lower then when you'de use it in pvp. 


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