20 replies to this topic

[Fluidz]

Since were entering September soon and who knows? Rangers may be coming back!

But our report is mainly to fix our class and make it more enjoyable as well as playable due to all the incorrect %'s!

 

So i was asked to do something along the line of Skill suggestions to make the devs get more of a idea on what to do with Rangers in the future.

 

So heres the Suggestions i would like alot of ranger feedback as well as other class feedback..

 

Charge Arrow -  Using charge arrow in pvp against melees is nearly impossible because it is easily cancelled so if we compare it to the Magician Fireball i would say the fireball dominates in pvp/pve due to its after affect which is a dot % of whatever you hit so it would make sense if Charge arrow was more rewarding. Giving the skill a amount of penetration (not alot) or some sort of ignore Defense buff on it making it more rewarding in pvp/pve considering how easily it can be cancelled and making the ranger stand still which is never good.

 

Owl's Sight (passive) - 3/3 this only gives 9% Attack power currently with the formulas this is really pointless now and doesn't give a enough damage boost as it should so Giving it a boost from 9% attack power to 30% attack power would be more beneficial in long fights in pve.

 

Poison Arrow - I'm sure most pre aov rangers will remember this skill was the carry of rangers and i bet you all miss it ;-; so do i... Buffing the initial damage as well as the DoT will bring this back to the ranger rotation and will benefit us SO much in pvp/pve so by Giving PA a initial damage boost from 250% at 5/5 to 350% or 450% to make it be on par with Sharpshooting giving more variety for build choosing for rangers also the after effect dot from 21% to 90% or 120% which gives a ml30 ranger with full Cazar around a 2.5k tick every 2 seconds which in my opinion is completely balanced compared to a 6K+ Crecentia dot or Priest dot.

 

Falcon Assault - Oh man i miss this build but if you read the description... yes you are correct it scales of Magic attack... i have nothing more to say than changing it to scale of Physical Attack instead. (come on devs, MA Really?)

 

Attention Concentration - This skill is Great for a party buff i am sure other classes love it but for Rangers the AGI formula is terrible so you see alot rangers leaving this 1/5  so by Giving this either a dodge/hit rate of 10% or having the first penetration party buff to give 10% penetration to yourself and party members by 2% penetration every 1 skill point.

 

Sharpshooting - Changing this to something similar to Raw tilt would be great and like i said again more variety for rangers to build and what skills to pick over what and why so by completely changing this to Initial damage of 350% and leaving the target to take 15% more damage from all classes + 30% of your Physical attack.

 

PLEASE NOTE that this is purely suggestions and i do not want this all implemented at once maybe using some of these suggestions to give us more of that edge in pve/pvp. I still think that the priority of this class fix is the %'s and bug fixes that should be implemented to first but what i have written is purely to keep up with every other class.

 

Key - 

PA - Poison Arrow

SS - Sharp shooting

MA - Magical Attack

 

 

 

Edited by Fluidz, 17 November 2014 - 05:01 PM.

[flukeSG2]

You have my support.  I know what we ask for isn't exactly what we can/will get, but at least this gives them an idea what we are looking for coupled with our reports.

[Meirin]

As I have said before, Poison Arrow is the probably the biggest skill that needs fixing. I like many of Fluidz's other ideas, although they will probably need to be tweaked in terms of the actual numbers. That said, I think that Attention Concentration probably needs the most tweaking. Unless they make AGI worth something again, I would be all for making this skill into something else entirely ability-wise or just scrapping it altogether. We can spend our skill points elsewhere.

Really, we need to have our class strengthened while allowing for players to be able to have build diversity once again. Until both of these things happen, one could argue that Rangers are not strong enough as a DPS class that can make a difference in a fought.

[Greven79]

You should know me by now, but just in case...

 

I am not the kind of guy that writes short comments, jokes around or does the other 'I like' stuff. So stop reading now or simply use the ignore-user option. But even if I might disagree or questioning certain things, it's never meant personal.

 

Charge Arrow:

Spoiler

Charge Arrow -  Using charge arrow in pvp against melees is nearly impossible because it is easily cancelled so if we compare it to the Magician Fireball i would say the fireball dominates in pvp/pve due to its after affect which is a dot % of whatever you hit so it would make sense if Charge arrow was more rewarding. Giving the skill a amount of penetration (not alot) or some sort of ignore Defense buff on it making it more rewarding in pvp/pve considering how easily it can be cancelled and making the ranger stand still which is never good.

 

How to start...

 

Your comparison with a Fireball is simplifying things too much. Why not compare it to skills like Firebolt or Holy Light? These skills are more appropriate and aren't broken due to a general DoT inbalance.

 

Originally (beware of further pre-AoV references), Charge Arrow was designed to be the main attack skill for the Ranger. The casting time could have ensured that melee classes had a chance against classes with ranged attacks.

 

However, the devs made a mistake: Poison Arrow and Sharp Shooting created focus as well.

 

Due the low cooldown for both skills, Colo players ended up cycling between these two skills and Impact Arrow. A lower the generation of focus was nothing compared to the 'newly gained' mobility.  Thanks to Main Ranger, the Double Strafings were flying around quite often

 

The full mobility was 'pimped' by the slow effect (also an unfair cooldown) and that's why Rangers were almost strictly superior towards most classes... only really topped by the Priest DoT/HoTs combination (also without casting time // cooldown).

 

With AoV, the developers tried to make the Coloseum players exceptionally happy and made Impact Arrow even more superior to Charge Arrow by adding additional levels and by letting it create focus stacks as well.

 

That's partially also an answer to why the 'cancelled skill' srgument isn't a wise one. This drawback existed since the beginning of the game, had it's reason and your suggestion wouldn't change that at all.

 

So here we are:

The Charge Arrow had a hard time to due to the Colo addiction/dedication of some players and was rendered more useless due a minor mistake and another 'consumer-oriented' single-sided buff. And now a single broken skill is used as a reference to demand another buff / fix...

 

So why not request to restore the original Impact Arrow (without focus), adding additional levels for Charge Arrow or Charge Arrow Mastery instead?

 

Charge Arrow lvl 5: 570% damage

 

No need to add armor penetration, just plain old damage!!

 

But I already had this kind of discussion with Fluke (iirc). I understand that many players prefer to stay mobile and I share this preference to a certain decree. But IMO the correct way would implement that is by creating a simple Fire-&-Forget skill similar to those of other classes (Double Attack, Bash or Lighting Bolt)

 

Phantasmal Arrow (replaces: Impact Arrow):

Damage: 220~250% at level 5

Casting Time: Instant

Cooldown: 0.9sec

Special: Creates 5~10 Focus

 

Also similar to other classes, the ranger could get another quick-to-use skill that generates twice as much focus. See skills like Shadow Strike, Duel Stab, Illusion Blade, Crushing Blow, Wild Crush or Bowling Bash:

 

Double Strafing:

Damage: ~450% (hitting twice for 225% damage each)

Casting Time: Instant

Cooldown: 6sec

Special: Creates twice as much focus

 

Dealing double with every sixth strike actually means an overall DPS increase of ~17%. Sounds fair to me and even get's better the more vigor a player gets.

 

So Charge Arrow would actually be a good candidate for a focus-consuming skill... and quite good for an additional specialty. I think my original idea was to add a knock-down as well. That's because I believe that it's more balancing when ranged classes to get a short-duration shutdown skill than a longer slow effect .A 3sec knock-down or stun is enough to get to full range again. On contrast, melee classes should get the slow effects instead and gives them more time to stay in close combat range (but allows the defender to use react (f.e. using pots)).

 

But even if you don't agree with these ideas, I think it would be still wise to rather nerf the fireball than to use it as an argument for other classes to get a buff. More generally spoken, maybe the Ranger isn't inferior that much... maybe other classes simply have too many broken stuff instead.

 

Owl's Sight:

Spoiler

Owl's Sight (passive) - 2/2 this only gives 9% Attack power currently with the formulas this is really pointless now and doesn't give a enough damage boost as it should so Giving it a boost from 9% attack power to 30% attack power would be more beneficial in long fights in pve.

 

First of all, the maximum level of this skill is 3, but I am not sure if you meant that with "2/2". Also keep in mind that a Warrior's Berserk has: +12% ATK, -10% dodge at level 3 and would be usuable only half of the time with 0 vigor... and an Aura Sword only 10% at max. level! So original, the skill wasn't that bad at all.

 

Anticipating the typical response that refers to BT: Yes, that skill is broken beyond repair and should be replaced and handled with maximum priority.

 

Putting this suggestion on a global scale, twiddling with the numbers/percentages won't suffice. Because the weapon damage is excluded from the ATK and magical classes getting a higher MATK bonus instead, only the physical skill effect remains as a variable more balanced among all classes.

 

So rather than increasing the ATK bonus by 30%, this skill ought to increase your PSE (physical skill effect) by 9% instead... and that is applicable to all ATK changing skills/effects.

 

Of course, the opposite would be valid as well, adding the weapon damage the ATK value once again. Because the conversion factor is roughly 1 PSE =10 ATK, you could add 10 times the weapon damage as an ATK bonus and you wouldn't have modified the total damage a bit. But it would balance all ATK skills in one go.

 

Poison Arrow:

Spoiler

Poison Arrow - I'm sure most pre aov rangers will remember this skill was the carry of rangers and i bet you all miss it ;-; so do i... Buffing the initial damage as well as the DoT will bring this back to the ranger rotation and will benefit us SO much in pvp/pve so by Giving PA a initial damage boost from 250% at 5/5 to 350% or 450% to make it be on par with Sharpshooting giving more variety for build choosing for rangers also the after effect dot from 21% to 90% or 120% which gives a ml30 ranger with full Cazar around a 2.5k tick every 2 seconds which in my opinion is completely balanced compared to a 6K+ Crecentia dot or Priest dot.

 

To me, that's another reference to unbalanced skills just for the sake of justifying a buff. Priest DoTs are known to be off-scale and Solemia - the Priest VCR - already suggested a nerf in his report.

 

Although that discussion was more than enough for a whole lifetime, I still have to repeat me a bit:

 

Even the pre-AoV version of PA (Poison Arrow) was broken. Since PA wasn't the main attack skill, the DoT stood in direct rivalry to other DPS-increasing skills, like passive skills or temporary buffs. A player always had to decide where to put his remaining skillpoints to. And in general, the answer was: DoTs first!

 

PA originally caused a 21% DoT that triggered every other second. Compared to the 45% of a Charge Arrow that could be casted every other second as well, it's already 47% as effective. Ergo, it could increase your DPS by 47%. Now compare that with passive skills like Owl's Eye f.e. What skill would you prefer if you have only a few skillpoints left?

 

Also keep in mind that the DoTs ignored armor in LotS (Legend of the Second = pre-AoV) as well. Against a Knight or Monk with a 50% defense rate, this DoT was already as effective as a normal CA attack. And that's another part that explains why Rangers were so powerful in Coloseum.

 

Currently, you have to assume a 75% defense rate to be quite common. So even if your DoT starts with one-fourth the damage of a normal attack, it would end up dealing the same amount of damage... and this is ignoring the DoT vs. Passive Skill rivalry.

 

That's why your suggestion of 90~120% would actually be similar to a free 360~480% damaging attack that doesn't ignore armor.

 

You see, of course you can say: If other classes have broken stuff, we deserve the same brokenness as well, but that's not for the best of the game. Because that change wouldn't fix the difficulties between skills affected by armor and DoTs on the other hand.

 

Falcon Assault:

Spoiler

Falcon Assault - Oh man i miss this build but if you read the description... yes you are correct it scales of Magic attack... i have nothing more to say than changing it to scale of Physical Attack instead. (come on devs, MA Really?)

 

Yes, the MATK thing is strange.

 

Aside all the balancing thoughts I've added here, I want to say that I would really like to see this skill to being added to the Beastmaster skill set instead.

 

In RO1, there wasn't the clear distinction between beastmasters and a ranger like in RO2, so I think it was a mistake to have the ranger use this skill.

 

Attention Concentration:

Spoiler

Attention Concentration - This skill is Great for a party buff i am sure other classes love it but for Rangers the AGI formula is terrible so you see alot rangers leaving this 1/5  so by Giving this either a dodge/hit rate of 10% or having the first penetration party buff to give 10% penetration to yourself and party members by 2% penetration every 1 skill point.

 

Do you mean 10% armor penetration per skill point or in total? Even if the latter would be the case, keep in mind that reducing the defense rate from 75% to 65% would result in a 40% damage increase!!!

 

IMO, that's totally broken... even towards the new 10% crit. chance increase by the Thieves.

 

A 10% hit chance increase would be ok though, but I would prefer if the VCR report would include a comment about the current stat inbalance in general. It shouldn't be the case that the devs first introduce class-specific stat bonuses and the VCR respond by bypassing the stat and rather aiming for the resulting percentage directly. That shows that something else ought to be fixed first.

 

Sharp Shooting:

Spoiler

Sharpshooting - Changing this to something similar to Raw tilt would be great and like i said again more variety for rangers to build and what skills to pick over what and why so by completely changing this to Initial damage of 350% and leaving the target to take 15% more damage from all classes + 30% of your Physical attack.

 

Just tell me how you find the references? In this case, it's Raw Tilt. That's not an offense, I am really curious.

 

Raw Tilt f.e. is broken because it can even bypass an intended immunity against damage. It's not a simple damage boost. So if you want this skill to be more like Raw Tilt, do you intend the same inbalance?

 

And why would you add another 30% PATK boost as well? Did I understood that correctly?

 

Although you only made some quick suggestions and I honor that, this seems to be a bit too random to me.

 

All in all, I never understood why this skill creates a debuff in the first place. When I think about a Sharp Shooting, it reminds me of an automatically hit, maybe an automatic critical or something that bypasses armor. But I don't think of anything group related.

 

So IF the Ranger really ought to get armor penetration, this skill is the best candidate. To make the skill interesting but not broken, it should either be situational or the initial damage should be low enough to make this skill less appealing against targets with a lower defense rate.

[Apheleya]

A thousand times yes!! Especially charge arrow and poison arrow.

[Fluidz]

Thank you for the feedback Greven but could you be a little less big headed and negative.

[Baddiez]

You should know me by now, but just in case...

 

I am not the kind of guy that writes short comments, jokes around or does the other 'I like' stuff. So stop reading now or simply use the ignore-user option. But even if I might disagree or questioning certain things, it's never meant personal.

 

Charge Arrow:

Spoiler

 

How to start...

 

Your comparison with a Fireball is simplifying things too much. Why not compare it to skills like Firebolt or Holy Light? These skills are more appropriate and aren't broken due to a general DoT inbalance.

 

Originally (beware of further pre-AoV references), Charge Arrow was designed to be the main attack skill for the Ranger. The casting time could have ensured that melee classes had a chance against classes with ranged attacks.

 

However, the devs made a mistake: Poison Arrow and Sharp Shooting created focus as well.

 

Due the low cooldown for both skills, Colo players ended up cycling between these two skills and Impact Arrow. A lower the generation of focus was nothing compared to the 'newly gained' mobility.  Thanks to Main Ranger, the Double Strafings were flying around quite often

 

The full mobility was 'pimped' by the slow effect (also an unfair cooldown) and that's why Rangers were almost strictly superior towards most classes... only really topped by the Priest DoT/HoTs combination (also without casting time // cooldown).

 

With AoV, the developers tried to make the Coloseum players exceptionally happy and made Impact Arrow even more superior to Charge Arrow by adding additional levels and by letting it create focus stacks as well.

 

That's partially also an answer to why the 'cancelled skill' srgument isn't a wise one. This drawback existed since the beginning of the game, had it's reason and your suggestion wouldn't change that at all.

 

So here we are:

The Charge Arrow had a hard time to due to the Colo addiction/dedication of some players and was rendered more useless due a minor mistake and another 'consumer-oriented' single-sided buff. And now a single broken skill is used as a reference to demand another buff / fix...

 

So why not request to restore the original Impact Arrow (without focus), adding additional levels for Charge Arrow or Charge Arrow Mastery instead?

 

Charge Arrow lvl 5: 570% damage

 

No need to add armor penetration, just plain old damage!!

 

But I already had this kind of discussion with Fluke (iirc). I understand that many players prefer to stay mobile and I share this preference to a certain decree. But IMO the correct way would implement that is by creating a simple Fire-&-Forget skill similar to those of other classes (Double Attack, Bash or Lighting Bolt)

 

Phantasmal Arrow (replaces: Impact Arrow):

Damage: 220~250% at level 5

Casting Time: Instant

Cooldown: 0.9sec

Special: Creates 5~10 Focus

 

Also similar to other classes, the ranger could get another quick-to-use skill that generates twice as much focus. See skills like Shadow Strike, Duel Stab, Illusion Blade, Crushing Blow, Wild Crush or Bowling Bash:

 

Double Strafing:

Damage: ~450% (hitting twice for 225% damage each)

Casting Time: Instant

Cooldown: 6sec

Special: Creates twice as much focus

 

Dealing double with every sixth strike actually means an overall DPS increase of ~17%. Sounds fair to me and even get's better the more vigor a player gets.

 

So Charge Arrow would actually be a good candidate for a focus-consuming skill... and quite good for an additional specialty. I think my original idea was to add a knock-down as well. That's because I believe that it's more balancing when ranged classes to get a short-duration shutdown skill than a longer slow effect .A 3sec knock-down or stun is enough to get to full range again. On contrast, melee classes should get the slow effects instead and gives them more time to stay in close combat range (but allows the defender to use react (f.e. using pots)).

 

But even if you don't agree with these ideas, I think it would be still wise to rather nerf the fireball than to use it as an argument for other classes to get a buff. More generally spoken, maybe the Ranger isn't inferior that much... maybe other classes simply have too many broken stuff instead.

 

Imo Charge arrow is fine. Even in PvP Idk what you guys are doing, but It works fine for me.

 

Owl's Sight:

Spoiler

 

First of all, the maximum level of this skill is 3, but I am not sure if you meant that with "2/2". Also keep in mind that a Warrior's Berserk has: +12% ATK, -10% dodge at level 3 and would be usuable only half of the time with 0 vigor... and an Aura Sword only 10% at max. level! So original, the skill wasn't that bad at all.

 

Anticipating the typical response that refers to BT: Yes, that skill is broken beyond repair and should be replaced and handled with maximum priority.

 

Putting this suggestion on a global scale, twiddling with the numbers/percentages won't suffice. Because the weapon damage is excluded from the ATK and magical classes getting a higher MATK bonus instead, only the physical skill effect remains as a variable more balanced among all classes.

 

So rather than increasing the ATK bonus by 30%, this skill ought to increase your PSE (physical skill effect) by 9% instead... and that is applicable to all ATK changing skills/effects.

 

Of course, the opposite would be valid as well, adding the weapon damage the ATK value once again. Because the conversion factor is roughly 1 PSE =10 ATK, you could add 10 times the weapon damage as an ATK bonus and you wouldn't have modified the total damage a bit. But it would balance all ATK skills in one go.

+1 I agree 

 

Poison Arrow:

Spoiler

 

To me, that's another reference to unbalanced skills just for the sake of justifying a buff. Priest DoTs are known to be off-scale and Solemia - the Priest VCR - already suggested a nerf in his report.

 

Although that discussion was more than enough for a whole lifetime, I still have to repeat me a bit:

 

Even the pre-AoV version of PA (Poison Arrow) was broken. Since PA wasn't the main attack skill, the DoT stood in direct rivalry to other DPS-increasing skills, like passive skills or temporary buffs. A player always had to decide where to put his remaining skillpoints to. And in general, the answer was: DoTs first!

 

PA originally caused a 21% DoT that triggered every other second. Compared to the 45% of a Charge Arrow that could be casted every other second as well, it's already 47% as effective. Ergo, it could increase your DPS by 47%. Now compare that with passive skills like Owl's Eye f.e. What skill would you prefer if you have only a few skillpoints left?

 

Also keep in mind that the DoTs ignored armor in LotS (Legend of the Second = pre-AoV) as well. Against a Knight or Monk with a 50% defense rate, this DoT was already as effective as a normal CA attack. And that's another part that explains why Rangers were so powerful in Coloseum.

 

Currently, you have to assume a 75% defense rate to be quite common. So even if your DoT starts with one-fourth the damage of a normal attack, it would end up dealing the same amount of damage... and this is ignoring the DoT vs. Passive Skill rivalry.

 

That's why your suggestion of 90~120% would actually be similar to a free 360~480% damaging attack that doesn't ignore armor.

 

You see, of course you can say: If other classes have broken stuff, we deserve the same brokenness as well, but that's not for the best of the game. Because that change wouldn't fix the difficulties between skills affected by armor and DoTs on the other hand.

Idk the exact numbers we should be looking for nor do I care to try to figure them out, but Poison arrow is a USELESS SKILL atm and needs to be reworked.

 

Falcon Assault:

Spoiler

 

Yes, the MATK thing is strange.

 

Aside all the balancing thoughts I've added here, I want to say that I would really like to see this skill to being added to the Beastmaster skill set instead.

 

In RO1, there wasn't the clear distinction between beastmasters and a ranger like in RO2, so I think it was a mistake to have the ranger use this skill.

MOTHERWORDICAN'TSAY YOU NO TOUCH MY BIRDIES

 

Attention Concentration:

Spoiler

 

Do you mean 10% armor penetration per skill point or in total? Even if the latter would be the case, keep in mind that reducing the defense rate from 75% to 65% would result in a 40% damage increase!!!

 

IMO, that's totally broken... even towards the new 10% crit. chance increase by the Thieves.

 

A 10% hit chance increase would be ok though, but I would prefer if the VCR report would include a comment about the current stat inbalance in general. It shouldn't be the case that the devs first introduce class-specific stat bonuses and the VCR respond by bypassing the stat and rather aiming for the resulting percentage directly. That shows that something else ought to be fixed first.

I think the buff is fine as is.

 

Sharp Shooting:

Spoiler

 

Just tell me how you find the references? In this case, it's Raw Tilt. That's not an offense, I am really curious.

 

Raw Tilt f.e. is broken because it can even bypass an intended immunity against damage. It's not a simple damage boost. So if you want this skill to be more like Raw Tilt, do you intend the same inbalance?

 

And why would you add another 30% PATK boost as well? Did I understood that correctly?

 

Although you only made some quick suggestions and I honor that, this seems to be a bit too random to me.

 

All in all, I never understood why this skill creates a debuff in the first place. When I think about a Sharp Shooting, it reminds me of an automatically hit, maybe an automatic critical or something that bypasses armor. But I don't think of anything group related.

 

So IF the Ranger really ought to get armor penetration, this skill is the best candidate. To make the skill interesting but not broken, it should either be situational or the initial damage should be low enough to make this skill less appealing against targets with a lower defense rate.

Yet another useless skill IMO make sharpshooting a skill that gives you a penetration buff. Nothing insane, but atleast make it a useful skill

 

Bold = my short thoughts . All in all I find the ranger class is indeed quite nerfed, but in PvP we can still hold our own if we play smart. Yes, we do need to get a lot of our skills reworked and maybe have a complete overhaul of certain things for our class, but it's not that bad. I STILL HOPE THEY FIX OUR THOUGH

 

 

EDIT: Since I know it' going to come up I don't have OP runes or op costumes or cards or any of that . 

Weapon: +20 Lich bow (crappy hone)

Armor: Osiris +20

Blueseeds: 36,34,28,25,23,23,23

Flame: Crappy like 20% and below

Power: 17

Armor: 8

Cards: Two holy nights or whatever it's called

Costumes: Ihave like 4 runes I think not really much maybe 36 str

Title: Easter Bunny.LCM

Edited by Baddiez, 25 August 2014 - 11:37 PM.

[Greven79]

MOTHERWORDICAN'TSAY YOU NO TOUCH MY BIRDIES

 

 

To stay serious: I suggested this change because a beastmaster in Bear Form a.k.a. costume form has no real skill that defines him as such. To  overstate things: You're just a Warrior that uses a Spear instead of a Greatsword (same damage) and without BT:

 

Assigning Falcon Arrow to a this class is just the 'easiest' way to fix..

 

 

Imo Charge arrow is fine. Even in PvP Idk what you guys are doing, but It works fine for me.

 

The thing is, that CA wasn't that necessary for LotS Colo builds. Just cycle through Impact Arrow, Poison Arrow, Sharp Shooting and the occational Double Strafing.

 

With AoV however, it was rendered even more useless because the Impact Arrow deals the same damage, generates the same amount of Concentration // Focus and replaces the casting time of CA with a short cooldown (time to use another skill), higher mobility and an abnormal slow efftect.

 

That means that there's no way I would prefer to level a Charge Arrow over an Impact Arrow (but doesn't mean you can't have both).

 

 

Idk the exact numbers we should be looking for nor do I care to try to figure them out, but Poison arrow is a USELESS SKILL atm and needs to be reworked.

 

The initial damage of Poison Arrow is identical to a Bash, Head Crush, Aura Strike, Double Attack, Deadly Blow or Rage Smash. In fact, the ~250% damage seems to be the standard DPS value for most skills.

 

To make the PA DoT as effective as it was during LotS while assuming a 75% defense rate to be common right now, it should deal 60~90% damage. But I doubt that this is what you guys mean. The uppercase letters rather indicate that you seek to 'balance' PA towards a Fireball DoT, towards the Priest DoTs or the corresponding HoTs like Renovatio or Cure.

 

Well, that creates a dilemma, because due to the high defense rate, the DoTs and HoTs are completely off. Even Solemia - the Priest VCR - suggested to make the Priest DoTs affected by armor. So the current 224% would be cut down by three-quarters to a mere ~60% as well. Doesn't that give cause for a general reconsideration?

 

So what do you think would be the correct damage for the Poison Arrow DoT? How much should it deal per tick compared to a normal attack like Charge Arrow? Don't have to be 'exact numbers', but a general statement should be doable, right? 20% as effective as the resulting Charge Arrow damage? 50%, 100% or even 200%? I mean that's like judging whether a skill needs a slight increase or if a skill damage needs to be doubled.

 

I don't know what you have in mind, but in my opinion the 20% seems to be the most plausible option.

 

Any DoT is an addition to the normal damage you deal and therefore similar to a passive / temporary damage increase. Even if an Owl's Eye would increase your total damage by 9%, it would be still slightly inferior point-wise (3% vs. 4% per skill point). But at least it would be competetive. So 20% out of 450% equals 90% (affected by armor). See, Solemia and I share a similar idea.

 

Now you could keep the DoTs unaffected by armor, but then you have to scale the 90% down to ca. 25%. But that must be the standard approach for the HoTs and all the other the Heal skills as well... since they ignore armor as well. And that's the point where I think Solemia went wrong, stating that the Heals are 'just fine'...

 

So assuming an average defense rate of 75% for ML30 characters, these would be the correct values (applying the same decrease as for the DoTs):

 

Heal: 110%

Highness Heal: 220%

Renovatio: 22% (20% out of 110% for Heal) or 55% (keeping the current effectiveness)

 

Suddenly, the 30% DoT of Poison Arrow rather seems to be the most balanced one... and more efforts should be made to bring the other DoTs, HoTs and Heals down to that level.

 

But my idea is to skip all these skill adjustments and rather decrease the defense rate down to approx. 20% on average. Then, the inbalance between whether a skill is affected by armor or not doesn't matter that much. But of course you would have to downgrade the damage as well to keep all the nornal attack skills in check.

 

You see, fixing Poison Arrow isn't that easy, if you look at the general DoT inbalance right now, but of course you could take the easier way out and simply create another inbalanced skill. Raise the damage of Poison Arrow to 400%+ and change the DoT into 150% and you would have created another Adoramus-like skill. Nothing special, just another brick in the wall.

Edited by Greven79, 26 August 2014 - 02:56 AM.

[Duph]

Skill: Arrow Shower
Casting Time: Instant Cast [Cast Animation: 2.01 secs] - remove cast animation.
 
Skill: Falcon Assault = Blitz Beat
 
Skill: Main Ranger - 20% chance
 
Skill: True Sight - Need rework (+5% CRIT. Detects hidden characters within 5 cells range.)

 

Skill: Attention Concentration - Increase Agi by 15%

 

Skill: Wind Walk - BUG? doesn't increase VIT or the skill desciption is wrong?

 

 
Important Suggestion: "Ranger" name change. Since we all know that his range is shorter than other class. Change it to "Huntard".
 
in colo -> he is just food.

 

Rework Model:  Ymir Child: Gaia <- Ugly

[Baddiez]

 

To stay serious: I suggested this change because a beastmaster in Bear Form a.k.a. costume form has no real skill that defines him as such. To  overstate things: You're just a Warrior that uses a Spear instead of a Greatsword (same damage) and without BT:

 

Assigning Falcon Arrow to a this class is just the 'easiest' way to fix..

 

 

 

The thing is, that CA wasn't that necessary for LotS Colo builds. Just cycle through Impact Arrow, Poison Arrow, Sharp Shooting and the occational Double Strafing.

 

With AoV however, it was rendered even more useless because the Impact Arrow deals the same damage, generates the same amount of Concentration // Focus and replaces the casting time of CA with a short cooldown (time to use another skill), higher mobility and an abnormal slow efftect.

 

That means that there's no way I would prefer to level a Charge Arrow over an Impact Arrow (but doesn't mean you can't have both).

 

I use both maybe that's just my preferred build, but I have maxed CA and max Impact Arrow. I find both to be fairly balanced aside from the crazy slow on impact arrow. I have noticed a lot of rangers using the no charge arrow build, and to be blunt I rape them so easily it's not even funny. I think charge arrow is balanced as is and needs no further changes. As appealing as adding penetration to it or any other effect I feel it's unnecessary. I've dueled most "good" players from just about every class. The only class I have a hard time beating is Priests,SM,Sins(ofc they all have +20 gear). I have always use CA and it has never felt "unbalanced" or unnecesary.  Priests have insane heals, sms have cure for days and sins..... sins.....

 

 

 

The initial damage of Poison Arrow is identical to a Bash, Head Crush, Aura Strike, Double Attack, Deadly Blow or Rage Smash. In fact, the ~250% damage seems to be the standard DPS value for most skills.

 

To make the PA DoT as effective as it was during LotS while assuming a 75% defense rate to be common right now, it should deal 60~90% damage. But I doubt that this is what you guys mean. The uppercase letters rather indicate that you seek to 'balance' PA towards a Fireball DoT, towards the Priest DoTs or the corresponding HoTs like Renovatio or Cure.

 

Umm, no I do not want rangers to have a dot like the fireball or priest dots. I just want it to be "balanced" into a skill that is actually viable for our PvP rotation for something aside from generating concentration, but then again I think if pots didn't heal as much as they do a 700-900 PA dot ( I THINK I saw someone do that with maxed PA) would be useful. 

 

Well, that creates a dilemma, because due to the high defense rate, the DoTs and HoTs are completely off. Even Solemia - the Priest VCR - suggested to make the Priest DoTs affected by armor. So the current 224% would be cut down by three-quarters to a mere ~60% as well. Doesn't that give cause for a general reconsideration?

 

So what do you think would be the correct damage for the Poison Arrow DoT? How much should it deal per tick compared to a normal attack like Charge Arrow? Don't have to be 'exact numbers', but a general statement should be doable, right? 20% as effective as the resulting Charge Arrow damage? 50%, 100% or even 200%? I mean that's like judging whether a skill needs a slight increase or if a skill damage needs to be doubled.

 

I don't know what you have in mind, but in my opinion the 20% seems to be the most plausible option.

 

Any DoT is an addition to the normal damage you deal and therefore similar to a passive / temporary damage increase. Even if an Owl's Eye would increase your total damage by 9%, it would be still slightly inferior point-wise (3% vs. 4% per skill point). But at least it would be competetive. So 20% out of 450% equals 90% (affected by armor). See, Solemia and I share a similar idea.

 

Now you could keep the DoTs unaffected by armor, but then you have to scale the 90% down to ca. 25%. But that must be the standard approach for the HoTs and all the other the Heal skills as well... since they ignore armor as well. And that's the point where I think Solemia went wrong, stating that the Heals are 'just fine'...

 

So assuming an average defense rate of 75% for ML30 characters, these would be the correct values (applying the same decrease as for the DoTs):

 

Heal: 110%

Highness Heal: 220%

Renovatio: 22% (20% out of 110% for Heal) or 55% (keeping the current effectiveness)

 

Suddenly, the 30% DoT of Poison Arrow rather seems to be the most balanced one... and more efforts should be made to bring the other DoTs, HoTs and Heals down to that level.

 

But my idea is to skip all these skill adjustments and rather decrease the defense rate down to approx. 20% on average. Then, the inbalance between whether a skill is affected by armor or not doesn't matter that much. But of course you would have to downgrade the damage as well to keep all the nornal attack skills in check.

 

You see, fixing Poison Arrow isn't that easy, if you look at the general DoT inbalance right now, but of course you could take the easier way out and simply create another inbalanced skill. Raise the damage of Poison Arrow to 400%+ and change the DoT into 150% and you would have created another Adoramus-like skill. Nothing special, just another brick in the wall.

 

Edited by Baddiez, 26 August 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[Greven79]

I use both maybe that's just my preferred build, but I have maxed CA and max Impact Arrow. I find both to be fairly balanced aside from the crazy slow on impact arrow. I have noticed a lot of rangers using the no charge arrow build, and to be blunt I rape them so easily it's not even funny. I think charge arrow is balanced as is and needs no further changes. As appealing as adding penetration to it or any other effect I feel it's unnecessary. I've dueled most "good" players from just about every class. The only class I have a hard time beating is Priests,SM,Sins(ofc they all have +20 gear). I have always use CA and it has never felt "unbalanced" or unnecesary.  Priests have insane heals, sms have cure for days and sins..... sins.....

 

Well, I can't argue with personal experience and can't evaluate the PvP skills of those non-CA Rangers.

 

An Impact Arrow can easily have cooldown of 2.6sec or less. So at best, there's time to cast a Double Strafing, Sharp Shooting or Poison Arrow. Where you find the time to cast Charge Arrow is kind of a mystery to me. Actually, either that mystery or your PvP skills must be the reason, why monks, BT-knights and memorize-sorcerers aren't a threat to you as well.

 

I am talking a lot about the Impact Arrow, but still the most interesting question seems to get lost. Do you think that Impact Arrow deserved the AoV change, the additinal levels, the additional damage and the additional stack generation? Have you leveled IA pre-AoV and how would you have rated it back then? How would you rate it right now?

 

Because I believe that the Impact Arrow creates too much of an 'must have' skill in any Ranger build that it even pushes the Charge Arrow down to a lower rank. That's why I posted that alternative, where the Impact Arrow didn't get any additional levels, but the Charge Arrow instead. And that's why I made the more 'theory-crafting' statement that a Ranger ought to have a Lightning Bolt like base-attack without a slow effect, but also without a casting time or cooldown, so that the remaining skills can be unique and/or situational additions in your skill build. 'Cause the current situation doesn't satisfy me.

 

Umm, no I do not want rangers to have a dot like the fireball or priest dots. I just want it to be "balanced" into a skill that is actually viable for our PvP rotation for something aside from generating concentration, but then again I think if pots didn't heal as much as they do a 700-900 PA dot ( I THINK I saw someone do that with maxed PA) would be useful.

 

Hard to discuss a "make it viable" statement and as a developer, I wouldn't know what to do. So do you think a 700-800 DoT is fair or only if the pots were recovering less than right now?

[Baddiez]

Well, I can't argue with personal experience and can't evaluate the PvP skills of those non-CA Rangers.

 

An Impact Arrow can easily have cooldown of 2.6sec or less. So at best, there's time to cast a Double Strafing, Sharp Shooting or Poison Arrow. Where you find the time to cast Charge Arrow is kind of a mystery to me. Actually, either that mystery or your PvP skills must be the reason, why monks, BT-knights and memorize-sorcerers aren't a threat to you as well.

 

I am talking a lot about the Impact Arrow, but still the most interesting question seems to get lost. Do you think that Impact Arrow deserved the AoV change, the additinal levels, the additional damage and the additional stack generation? Have you leveled IA pre-AoV and how would you have rated it back then? How would you rate it right now?

 

Because I believe that the Impact Arrow creates too much of an 'must have' skill in any Ranger build that it even pushes the Charge Arrow down to a lower rank. That's why I posted that alternative, where the Impact Arrow didn't get any additional levels, but the Charge Arrow instead. And that's why I made the more 'theory-crafting' statement that a Ranger ought to have a Lightning Bolt like base-attack without a slow effect, but also without a casting time or cooldown, so that the remaining skills can be unique and/or situational additions in your skill build. 'Cause the current situation doesn't satisfy me.

 

 

Hard to discuss a "make it viable" statement and as a developer, I wouldn't know what to do. So do you think a 700-800 DoT is fair or only if the pots were recovering less than right now?

 

You would have to duel me in game to get it I guess, and I forgot about stun robot shield cannon knights....and monks well if they one shot you ofc it's hard. Sorcs ehhh depends really on how geared they are imo unless very geared and full vit build easy peasy

 

Charge arrow

CD: .62 seconds

Cast time: 1.32 Seconds

Impact Arrow

CD: 2.76

Cast time: Instant

Edited by Baddiez, 26 August 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[StormHaven]

You know what would be nice. The devs actually acknowledging the stealth nerfs and changes to rangers, cause honestly I'm more afraid of any ranger "balance" since the Devs just want to /deleterangers and ignore us.

[Baddiez]

You know what would be nice. The devs actually acknowledging the stealth nerfs and changes to rangers, cause honestly I'm more afraid of any ranger "balance" since the Devs just want to /deleterangers and ignore us.

 

In one of the streams Njoror said that they were trying to figure out what they did to nerf us. So I guess they know now?

[StormHaven]

In one of the streams Njoror said that they were trying to figure out what they did to nerf us. So I guess they know now?

 

Some of the changes were kinda.. how do you that by accident...I.E. the Entire mess that is the quiver system...

[Baddiez]

Some of the changes were kinda.. how do you that by accident...I.E. the Entire mess that is the quiver system...

 

I think was intentional and a very stupid move on their part.

[Greven79]

Charge arrow

CD: .62 seconds

Cast time: 1.32 Seconds

Impact Arrow

CD: 2.76

Cast time: Instant

 

Keep in mind that any CD includes a general ~1sec recast delay between skills (or animation time if you want to) and that the CD only starts after any casting time.

So you have only a 1.76sec timeslot for Impact Arrow and a total skill duration of 1.94sec for the Charge Arrow.

 

You could focus a bit more on vigor, but this kind of millisecond discussion will get weird.
 

In general, it seems you're trying to avoid answering my questions though...

Edited by Greven79, 27 August 2014 - 02:40 AM.

[Baddiez]

Keep in mind that any CD includes a general ~1sec recast delay between skills (or animation time if you want to) and that the CD only starts after any casting time.

So you have only a 1.76sec timeslot for Impact Arrow and a total skill duration of 1.94sec for the Charge Arrow.

 

You could focus a bit more on vigor, but this kind of millisecond discussion will get weird.
 

In general, it seems you're trying to avoid answering my questions though...

Tbh between work and school I just don't have enough time to write out an "adequate" response to what you have written. :/  Eventually I'll write it out or just make a video of me pvping a few ppl

Edited by Baddiez, 27 August 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Greven79]

Tbh between work and school I just don't have enough time to write out an "adequate" response to what you have written. :/  Eventually I'll write it out or just make a video of me pvping a few ppl

 

Wasn't referring to the PvP thing, but rather on the following questions:

 

"Do you think that Impact Arrow deserved the AoV change, the additinal levels, the additional damage and the additional stack generation? Have you leveled IA pre-AoV and how would you have rated it back then? How would you rate it right now?"

 

... and...

 

"So do you think a 700-800 DoT is fair or only if the pots were recovering less than right now?"

 

Skill: Wind Walk - BUG? doesn't increase VIT or the skill desciption is wrong?

 

Sometimes, RO2 uses different words for the same thing, because different translations were used. Acceleration might mean Haste and Vitality most likely Vigor.

Edited by Greven79, 28 August 2014 - 03:50 AM.

[StormHaven]

Acceleration= Haste+Cast Speed

 

Vitality= Vigor

 

and tbh 700-900 PA DoTs were balanced pre AoV and would still be balanced now considering how stupidly high healing is from all sources.

[Greven79]

and tbh 700-900 PA DoTs were balanced pre AoV and would still be balanced now considering how stupidly high healing is from all sources.

 

Just asking, because an +20 Osiris Bow already generates a PSE (pyhsical skill effect) by ~1600 and you get another ~200 PSE from Osiris gear without any seedrunes.

So assuming an otherwise stat-less build, you would have to increase the PA DoT modifier to 45% and you would achieve the 800 damage over time with Osiris gear.

 

Fluidz however stated:

 

Poison Arrow -  [..] so by Giving PA a initial damage boost from 250% at 5/5 to 350% or 450% [... and ...] dot from 21% to 90% or 120% which gives a ml30 ranger with full Cazar around a 2.5k tick every 2 seconds which in my opinion is completely balanced compared to a 6K+ Crecentia dot or Priest dot.

 

That confuses me. Do you and Baddiez disagree on that?

 

If I use Fluidz statement here, he has a PSE between 2080~2700 in full Cazar, because that would generate the 2,5k tick for a 90~120% PA DoT.

So if you and Baddiez only seek for an 700~800 DoT, Poison Arrow wouldn't have to change that much, as that would require only a modifier between 28% and 38%.

 

BTW: The Soulmaker would only require a PSE of ~1200 to achieve a 6k DoT, cause a triple Cure has a HoT multiplier of 3x 168% = 504%. Using just the damage & MATK bonus from Osiris Handle + Doll, a Soulmaker achieve a PSE of 1k~1.1k without refining that gear. So you can assume that a Soulmaker has a much, much stronger Cure in full +20 Cazar gear with seedrunes. So what that mean for this PA discussion?

Edited by Greven79, 28 August 2014 - 03:51 AM.