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Bold Suggestion


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#1 xLuc

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 11:17 PM

I'd like to suggest, and if a knight VCR could take it to the devs (I don't know who they are), a tweak regarding knights defense overall.

 

Right now, the biggest source of defense is the armor set, the shield pales in comparison to them.

That is reason enough to, sometimes, if you are the refiner type, leave the shield unrefined cause the bonus won't be as tempting as the armor pieces. 

To make knights more unique on this department, I'd like to suggest removing some percentage from all 5 armor pieces and tossing the result onto the shield.

That would not only make life easier for short on money players (you would opt to refine the shield for a decent, but not as good, ammount of bonus defense instead of the whole set), it would still make the final overall defense on a fully refined set the same (and I believe real spenders won't stop refining the whole armor set, so that would, maybe, be a win/win situation financially speaking?).

So, the hypothetical case would be like:

 

- 1500 defense x 5 for armor pieces = 7500 defense

- 500 defense x 1 on shield

- Total = 8000 defense

 

If you take away, say, 20% of that defense from each piece of armor and toss them onto the shield, the result would be:

 

- 7500 (-20%) = 7500 - 1500 = 6000 defense on armor pieces

- 500 + 1500 (20% taken out from armor set) = 2000 defense on shield

- Total = 8000 defense

 

So yea, I don't have high hopes of this actually happening but it's a suggestion nonetheless.

Cheers.


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#2 Kupfner

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 12:26 AM

For now most ppl just refine their top to +20 or refine both helm and top to get decent defense boost.

Anyway imo, we dont need to scratch a new formula for armor defense. I think its just better to swap a defense part to another.
Current formula defense (from highest to lowest):
Top > helm > bottom ~ glove > shoes > shield

Suggested formula defense (from highest to lowest):
Top > bottom > helm ~ shield > glove > shoes
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#3 Greven79

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 12:07 PM

I don't really see how distributing defense stats in a different way would make this more balanced. Would a Ranger profit if his weapon would deal less damage and if his quiver is refinable instead?

 

The thing is that the current defense formula doesn't encourage you to refine every gear part, because knights, warriors and monks can achieve 90%+ without it already. And any additional defense would only result in quite insignifacant percentages that are all useless unless an opponent has armor penetration > 15%.


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#4 xLuc

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 11:25 PM

Talking numbers, actually, close but not exact (from experience with my knight):

 

- Full non-refined Himmelmez Armor + Non-refined Cazar Shield (negligible defense) = around 10000 defense

- 10000 defense = 74% armor

 

It's a bit far from 90% armor.

The suggestion was not made taking into consideration the further balance of the game (we tried that already haha), but to improve the experience to all knight players, having in focus those who can't afford to refine all their gear.

Also, if you look at it, the defense bonus the refinement gives on armor is abnormally high (is it like 4x the original defense on +20?), so I guess having a boosted defense on shield and opting to refine only to +20 would be a better for most players.

 

I don't think that would harm the so desired balance even more. It's more like I'm advocating for the class I play and like and I think, personally, the suggestion is fair.


Edited by xLuc, 11 September 2014 - 11:26 PM.

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#5 Kupfner

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 03:10 PM

The thing is that the current defense formula doesn't encourage you to refine every gear part, because knights, warriors and monks can achieve 90%+ without it already. And any additional defense would only result in quite insignifacant percentages that are all useless unless an opponent has armor penetration > 15%.

Bold statement: its not possible to get 90% defense without +20 all for k9 and war, maybe monk possible but need to confirm that. 31k defense only gives u 89% defense (thats the highest def i can obtain with helm top shoes at +15, gloves bottom +20, shield +10, and already buffed with earth shield from sorc).
Fyi, unrefined k9 gear will only have around 75% defense, unrefined war gear with defender buff will only have around 80% defense. Only unrefined monk gear have already around 85% defense which means monk can just let their gears unrefined and yet still hard to hit.
So for war and k9, if u aim 85++ refining still needed eventho u may not all +20 it.

Edited by Kupfner, 16 September 2014 - 10:26 PM.

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#6 Greven79

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 01:51 PM

Fyi, unrefined k9 gear will only have around 75% defense, unrefined war gear with defender buff will only have around 80% defense. Only unrefined monk gear have already around 85% defense which means monk can just let their gears unrefined and yet still hard to hit.
So for war and k9, if u aim 85++ refining still needed eventho u may not all +20 it.

 

You surely noticed that I wrote "no need to refine every gear part", right?


Edited by Greven79, 15 September 2014 - 01:53 PM.

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#7 Shinyusuke

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 09:23 PM

I think all these discussions are useless since soon developers will be forced to change the defence system, the actual system bring to a point when the new gears will have no need to be refined and cloth and light armors will match the defence cap and then be equal to heavy armors in game.
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#8 xLuc

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 06:47 PM

I think all these discussions are useless since soon developers will be forced to change the defence system, the actual system bring to a point when the new gears will have no need to be refined and cloth and light armors will match the defence cap and then be equal to heavy armors in game.

 

Yea haha, or unless, you know, they keep releasing the new armor with SLIGHTLY more defense compared to the previous. You see, Himmelmez armor is 10 Master Levels higher than Osiris and the defense boost is totally negligible.


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#9 Shinyusuke

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:45 PM

Not to mention that our class bonus (1vit=1def), it's completely useless after osiris.
The best would be something suggested before to set the defence as standards:
Heavy armor 75% always
Light armor 50%
Cloth armor 25%
The refinement can add a little % to these values max 10-20%
The level gap between weared gears and caracter reduce these values 1-2% each level.

In this way a ml30 knight wearing osiris will have 75%-(2%×10lv gap)=55% if refined +20 55%+20%=75%
The refinement is still good but you are always forced to equip the new gears to keep your defence high.
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#10 Greven79

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 12:41 AM

Not to mention that our class bonus (1vit=1def), it's completely useless after osiris.

 

Yeah... who wanted these stat bonuses anyways?

 

The best would be something suggested before to set the defence as standards:
Heavy armor 75% always
Light armor 50%
Cloth armor 25%
The refinement can add a little % to these values max 10-20%
The level gap between weared gears and caracter reduce these values 1-2% each level.

In this way a ml30 knight wearing osiris will have 75%-(2%×10lv gap)=55% if refined +20 55%+20%=75%
The refinement is still good but you are always forced to equip the new gears to keep your defence high.

 

These values would be totally inbalanced! Just substract the defense rates from 100% to see how much damage comes through:

 

Heavy armor 25% gets through
Light armor 50% gets through
Cloth armor 75% gets through

 

That means that classes in "light armor" take twice as much damage as classes in heavy armor. Classes in "cloth armor" receive triple damage instead. That would mean, if an assassin would deal 20k damage to a Warrior // Knight, he would deal 40k damage to a Ranger/Crecentia and 60k damage to any Wizard, Soulmaker or Priest. IMO totally unfair!

 

My idea would be the following:

 

Heavy armor 40% defense rate
Light armor 30% defense rate
Cloth armor 20% defense rate

 

If you calculate the damage difference here, the Warriors / Knights receive 25% less damage and an Assassin or Rogue receives 15% less damage than a Priest or Sorcerer. That means if a knight is hit for 20k damage, a rogue would receive 23k damage and a priest 27k damage.

 

The level gap between weared gears and caracter reduce these values 1-2% each level.

In this way a ml30 knight wearing osiris will have 75%-(2%×10lv gap)=55% if refined +20 55%+20%=75%
The refinement is still good but you are always forced to equip the new gears to keep your defence high.

 

I wouldn't work with the defense rates directly but I agree that - and have suggested it already - as long as the character wears the armor appropriate for his current level. the defense rates should never ever change. A level 1 knight in lvl 1 gear should have a 40% defense rate as well.

 

The only thing that should happen is that a certain level of gear gets "outdated" and less effective for every additional level you get, so that you need an upgrade to restore the original percentage. At level 70, your level 60 gear would be less effective, so get yourself some better armor to restore the 40%. In that way, this game could go on indefinitely.

 

And the same can be done with other stats as well. A level 1 Assassin could have a 30% crit. chance already. But he has to improve his gear constantly to keep the chances up.


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#11 rawker2

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:21 PM

Would it be better if the Knight excels at mitigation through Parry and damage reduction %? I mean, they already have as 5% from Aura Armor and 10% from their shield. If we push their parrying even more, so that they could at least have 30%-33% parrying rate, then their EHP is better overall than merely just increasing their hit buffers(HP).

 

As a suggestion, I would opt to remove Concentration and increase Aura Armor max level to 10 with this scaling

+%DR: 1/2/3/4/5/7/9/11/14/15

+%mHP: 4/8/12/16/20/21/22/23/24/25

+%Threat: 60/120/180/240/300/320/340/360/380/400

 

*Bolded figures are given upon changing to ML.

 

Furthermore, give a significant increase in Parry for all of their equipment and lower their chances of landing crits to at most 20% to discourage abusing Battle Tactics. I would also like to change Shield Fortress from a plain active skill to a toggle skill which consumes SP(500 SP to activate, 100 sp on initial tick increasing the consumption by 5% per tick, can't use pots while active to prevent prolonging the state, and of course a cooldown of at least 5 seconds or more, after deactivating with a penalty of double the cooldown if halted due to depleting SP), at a considerable rate, per tick. Let's be honest, with all that Wisdom, we barely even use 1% it. :D


Edited by rawker2, 01 October 2014 - 07:47 PM.

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#12 xLuc

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:04 PM

I guess they really need to get rid of seed runes then, specially the green ones, if we want to be able to differentiate classes. For example, they gave knights a 10% damage reduction on shields but a warrior can get the same reduction if he rolls a good green armor rune (assuming the knight has a crappy one). It comes down to RNG again, that's the problem.

 

About the crit, I don't know, knights already receive only 1 crit per AGI point. With a 1400 AGI + other crit sources you can get like 3000 crit, which is about 30% crit rate. It all comes down, again, to the seed runes. Banish blue seeds and you have a lower crit rate on every class instantly.

 

The Shield Fortress idea is cool ^^ 


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#13 Shinyusuke

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 12:59 AM

I would prefer move that idea on shield armor instead of shield fortres :P
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