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King/boss level monsters are ridiculously easy/boring + its effect on the game


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#1 jerremy

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 08:49 AM

So with the recent gem update, I've decided to go out farming again, trying my luck at getting some of those new gems. However, it only took about half an hour before I gave up. Partly because the drop rates are pretty crappy, most of the time you don't get any items at all. But that's being adressed in another topic already. The main reason is that hunting bosses is incredibly boring and feels like a chore to do. 

So why?

Bosses are ridiculously easy. When you face them, they don't feel like bosses, but more like a larger sized minion. They do exactly the same things, only the boss takes longer to die. There is no challenge whatsoever in beating up a boss, as they're just a ball of stats. They use no special skills, their buffs/debuffs are so weak they're negligible, if they have any kind of stuns/dispells/mutes they'll spam them cause they don't know what else to do, and their amount of damage is repetitive and easy to keep track off. All it takes for you to beat a boss is to have enough stats to overpower it, and you'll never die to a boss ever again. All it takes is to use a high damage character,  right click on the boss to start autoing and then occasionally heal up with a cleric heal/pot.

Ofcourse, this can make it somewhat difficult for newer players to handle, but once you have the slightest bit better equipment it becomes a walk in the park to solokill these things. This makes it very boring to do, especially since it'll often take several minutes of repetitive action (using that cleric integrity heal every time it comes off CD, one click every twelve seconds) for killing one boss. Doing this for a longer period of time gets really stupid and makes most people want to stop. 

One of the consequences of bosses being so easy is that it makes a lot of rewards not feel very rewarding. Yeah you probably worked your ass off trying not to die of boredom while spending hours/days/weeks occasionally clicking that heal button, but that doesn't feel like a nice way to earn something.

When you think of a boss in most games, you think of ridiculously hard skills, interactive gameplay, teaming up with others, and a feeling of reward after defeating them. ROSE bosses seem to have none of that. The only reward you'll get once you get that item you've been looking for is the fact that you're somehow still alive after boring you to near death for such a long period of time.

 

With all the recent changes with the underlying reason to make people feel more "rewarded" when they achieve/get something, I feel it is urgently needed for bosses to be updated towards more challenging/interactive gameplay.


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#2 Pigggybank

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:05 AM

Only farmed half an hour? You will have to do better than that because it takes  persistent and self-motivation to obtain the gems. I spent about  4-5 days figuring out how to obtain the new gems and it's not just by myself but a team of farmers narrowing down what drops and what doesn't drop. Things aren't handed down so easily.


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#3 jerremy

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:13 AM

You might want to read it completely. I definitely do not expect instant rewards, I'd rather have the game be harder instead. I'm just asking for more difficult bosses and more interactive gameplay with them, so actually farming them feels less like a chore to do. 


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#4 ChampPower

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:27 AM

It may be the chores, but they are the chores, which you cannot do. XD
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#5 NamirBarades

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:32 AM

I agree with the problem, but I cant think of a viable solution. I have always liked having the option of farming solo or in a group. They could make the bosses a lot harder, more interactive, but then solo farmers would be effected. Maybe if they added some beefed up bosses with different rewards, that were harder, it could be cool. Bosses that required actually farming with an active cleric and not someone botting. I do like the devourer and ita debuffing skill. I always found that fun, but The addition of valor gear and the pvm bonuses has made it substantially easier. It feels like the bosses do less damage.
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#6 jerremy

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:34 AM

There's a few ideas I thought of that 'could' (not guaranteed to) work, going to write them down later. Just wondering right now what other people think of the difficulty of current bosses, so any answers/opinions are appreciated.


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#7 Gojio

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:42 AM

There's a game (not mentioning the name, but Meghan will probably know) where bosses are the most beautiful things ever. Takes lots of people to kill them (8 or 16), fights can take up to 15-20 minutes and require the knowledge of complicated tactics.

 

But then again, I'm trying to compare 2 different worlds here. Rose will never be like that.


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#8 IAfjiBa

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:44 AM

It was a bit time ago last time I farmed kings but from what I remember, its what jerremy said. You just need to have a cleric and a fighting class that can tank a bit. Target the king and go on the cleric and heal and wait to the king to die.

 

But I also want that people should be abel to solo farming if they want and if people want to go as a group with friends they should be abel to do that. But its not fun when its to easy and it will be hard to make it a challange for a solo farming and a group farming. Becuse it cant be to hard for a solo farmers but if we make it challange for solo farming its maybe not challange for group farming and then the same way for group farming. If we make it challange for group farming its maybe to hard for solo farming.. 

 

I cant wait for your ideas Jerremy!  :p_smile:


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#9 ChampPower

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:52 AM

The solution is to create a a special place(s), which is/are filled with super strong King. This way the solo players can go to the usual places, and the thrill seekers can fight at the special place(s). Problem is solved.
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#10 Pigggybank

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:04 AM

Bosses shouldn't be buffed more but adding more mechanics to their arsenal. For example Arcane Khaldun from B4 OT, Bone spider king, Grand master Devour,  Varus, Behemoth king,and the main boss for Sea of dawn have mechanics unique to them.  

Online rose is a game were you can only click and skill. 

If you want a game with a lot of dynamics and boss killing go play dragon Saga on Warp portal.


Edited by Pigggybank, 22 September 2014 - 10:04 AM.

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#11 Fishnet

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:07 AM

I kind of agree with what you are saying.

 

I alway thought they should have the normal boss/king spawn, just like it currently does and gives a decent reward. Then have a second boss/king spawn. Sort of like what happen with the gem quest(or whatever its called). It would be stronger, have way better skills, look a little different, etc. A boss/king that would take a real party to kill. To do this they would need to expand the number of players that could be in a party also.


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#12 Filipito98

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:41 PM

Well bosses nowadays are hard for me lol, last time i went to help a friend in quest (+15 courage weapon bourg gun and courage set, taked 10/20 mins to kill) due dat i stop farming, 10/20 mins solo with my own cleric is like a waste of time, and in the end, scka rewards, last times was easly, always scks rewards, there's almost nthing i can do in rose .... 1 player killing.a boss with cleric and high damage, u guys call dat farming/killing bosses? Try raids 10/25 players, 5 mins each boss, 30/40 mind of raid (Dg) and 4 bosses wich gives items and u can get items weekly per weekly, celestial no need team (actually is need) also ordos, dat 2 ones it depends the luck but have a bonus reward (item for bonus reward) can only get item weekly per weekly also, dats wat im saying is like true boss hunter, maybe lets see, reduce respawn time from boss, day per day a reward (money, rare item, gem, etc) CANT BE SOLOED, need like a team of 10/20 players, 1/2 tanks, few healers and damagers DONE, everyone get happy or no, is np everyday there's a boss farming, players who did already the daily boss hunt, help newbies in bosses soo the merchant is better, is all about teamwork, not solo bosses, or greedy ppl, teamwork in boss, get item, if dont need, sell it, if need save it. Thats my proposal
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#13 pdfisher

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 05:32 PM

Thank you very much for this jerremy. This has been my sentiment exactly in regards to Rose as a whole. With the latest patch, everything is so darn easy to get. There is no work involved, no sense of accomplishment gained. I would very much like to see something like what you have said done.


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#14 NamirBarades

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 06:34 PM

I'd totally could be down for a bigger dungeon that took more players to start.. and required a full group to actually finish it.


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#15 Filipito98

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:37 PM

I'd totally could be down for a bigger dungeon that took more players to start.. and required a full group to actually finish it.

like i said a raid with like 10/20 players :/
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#16 maldini

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:37 PM

There was a time (irose) where we need tons of players just to kill a king....
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#17 Iazu

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:51 PM

I hope I'm not too new to make some proposals. But maybe incorporating some other things I see in other MMO's might help?

 

One of the biggest things is ADS. [Additional Damage Support for those not familiar]. Essentially these are either mobs or mechanics that either cycle, generate randomly, or are triggered by certain events. 

A good way for this to be used I think in ROSE here, would be the following?

- King summons minions at certain % markers. Maybe every 5% HP the king loses it generates a certain number of mobs [based on number of characters in a set range]

- - These minion target the players and perform various tasks -attack, dispell, debuff, mute, Heal the King, Buff the King etc-

- You could then also give ADS to the Kings/Bosses with random event cycles. Say Magic type bosses have a random chance to Mute or Sleep users in a set area.

- Another factor is Dynamic Buffing. The King's buffs would be influenced by the number of players in a set range.

Say for example

- 1 player; 5% def

- 2 players, 10% def

- 3 players, 15% def

until capped at maybe 50%.

 

One of the other things I find uhm, "odd" about King in ROSE is that they don't regenerate from what I can tell. They almost never heal themselves. And when you leave their "range" and they lose aggro and return to their spot, they don't regenerate. That is a very common practice in most MMO's. That if you flee for too long or too far the king will return and regenerate. 

 

Lastly the monsters in general are kinda... dumb. Sometimes they get lucky and really annoy you with mutes or a well timed stun. But they don't exactly check a lot. 

I know some games now use a smarter system that checks the frequency you heal, skill, melee or CC. And the monsters will combat against those. Either by muting you if you spend a lot of time casting, or stunning you if you attack with auto strikes frequently. In general I can't propose how to do it better. I'm no coder or anything but it is what I see. 

 

Hope some of these ideas help. Not sure what good it does but they're at least here now. 


Edited by Iazu, 22 September 2014 - 10:55 PM.

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#18 jerremy

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 03:37 AM

Ok, all thoughts are noted down, thanks. And Iazu, you're never too new to make proposals, as long as they make sense.

So there's a few things I thought of that might make bosses at least more interesting to fight. Not going to go into difficulty yet because a lot of people do seem to be concerned about it potentially harming solofarmers and newer players.

 

NOTE: These are just small and easy changes that shouldn't need much time to implement, yet could have a decent enough impact to really make bosses feel more like actual bosses. 

 

1) Bosses need more offensive skills/older skills need to be updated.

 

This has always been my biggest concern when fighting a boss, but these guys rarely do anything other than auto attack. And they attack pretty slow as well, but that's a matter I'll adress further down my post. When they do use a skill, it'll rarely do much either. I think we were all rather impressed when we saw the fearsome terrasaurus king spit a giant fireball for the first time we played this game, only to then find out it does about as much damage as two auto attacks.. Why does it not do more damage/have something like a burn effect? When you see a boss charging up for a skill several seconds, you expect it to actually do something. If kings use high damage/high cooldown/long cast time skills, this also means players will be rewarded for their fast fingers. A quickly timed reactionary stun/sleep/dmg reduction buff/heal to prevent yourself from dying would reward those who are actively paying attention and punish those who are semi-afk.

 

And when it comes to skills, bosses need more delayed targetted AOE's. The only dungeon boss I like doing is the SOD one. Why? At least the fight is interesting (if you don't lure him like a sissy) when you're kiting him around the map, dodging the swords he spawns that do massive AOE damage. Why is he the only boss that has such a skill? You've already shown you can add such a mechanic, if other bosses could have some of these fighting them would feel a lot more interactive. Imagine the desert scavenger spawning pillars of erupting sand, or small sandstorm areas that do consistent damage, etc. Especially the end level bosses (sikuku ruins and whole of orlo) should have more skills, that lower level kings don't have much going for them is a given.

 

2) Bosses need to have an additional damage buff/passive.

 

I think we've all seen it before, but you've seen those godly knights that take pretty much no damage from any PVM mob in the game. When the attack doesn't miss or gets blocked, it'll do 5 damage. Why is this? The problem is how damage amplification/reduction work in this game. If you've ever played a knight, you'll know that when you use your 50% dmg reduction buff, you generally won't reduce the damage by 50%, but sometimes less, and sometimes even more. This is because damage reduction stacks together with PVM/PVP amplifiers. For the earlier stages of the game, this doesn't really matter, but come end game, it ends up quite troublesome. I don't know the formula for damage amplification/reduction completely, but it seems that when a knight has a full brave/luna set with their 50% dmg reduction buff on, they'll have 100% dmg reduction in PVM, which means facing any mob becomes a walk in the park, because no matter how much AP this mob has, no matter whether he does physical or magic damage, you will reduce it to zero (or five, since this is the lowest possible damage number in game).

To counteract this, boss monsters especially should have an additional damage buff. The reason being that amplification counteracts stacking reduction. If a boss had maybe, 20% additional damage, it would counteract the 100% and lower it. Knights would still reduce a lot of damage, but not become completely immune anymore. 

 

3) Bosses need to spawn more minions.

 

This one has always irked me a lot, but a lot of bosses in the game seem to be alone. They're supposed to be the rulers, the kings of their kind, so why do they never spawn any minions to fight for them? The only ones that I know do spawn any are the guardian tree and the aqua/krawfy king. More bosses should spawn minions.

 

4) Bosses need more critical chance/rating.

 

Another small thing that could be added, but bosses (mobs in general) have incredibly low crit chance. In fact, so low that even my 10sen/20 crit rate cleric NEVER takes any crits from the majority of monsters. Why is it like this? I don't mind if you take some of their raw AP away for this, but bosses need more crit rate.

 

5) Bosses need more attack speed.

 

This is something that I'd really like to see, but currently bosses (and most mobs in general) attack very slow. This makes their attack patterns very telegraphed, and you don't have to worry about suddenly taking another auto attack that could kill you if you're not paying attention. 

 

6) Bosses need more strong buffs/debilitating debuffs.

 

Make dispell and purify actually feel worth their cost in PVM! Right now a monster rarely ever buffs himself, and when he does, it's hardly anything to speak of. Most of us here have faced the terrasaurus king before and will know just how oh so powerful he gets when he uses his ap/def buff. He now hits for 2200 instead of 2000 and you hit 1900 instead of 2000. Very impressive indeed... Boss monsters should have short duration high impact buffs given to them, windows of short power in which you think "this really is a boss, better be careful when he has that up". 

 

Debuffs are even worse. Aside from an occasional slow (which doesn't affect you at all since you're standing still, facetanking the giant minion anyway), and some monsters having a small damage over time, both of which don't make you feel the need to purify, there seem to be no debuffs in this game used by monsters. The only exceptions are some AOE stunspammers (Kera, bone spider, ulverick, moss ent)  and the AOE mute/bleed from the bosses in HoO, neither of which you can do anything about. Why are there no big defense/mdefense downs (like dual raiders PVP circlebreak and mages aural pierce)? Where are the strong attack speed/movement speed slows that actually feel debilitating? High damage-over-times? Purify is only really used in PvP right now cause it doesn't feel like you need it in any PVM situation.

 

The reason these changes are so simple is because the ROSE game engine is rather old/outdated and I don't know if any newer game mechanics can be implemented without it potentially causing trouble. The server isn't very stable as it is. Thus I decided to make use of whatever is currently available in game and tweaked it around a bit.

 

PS: I suck at writing/proofreading.


Edited by jerremy, 23 September 2014 - 03:42 AM.

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#19 kwayan19

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 04:00 AM

thats why we have dungeons


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#20 Leeny

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 04:15 AM

Only farmed half an hour? You will have to do better than that because it takes  persistent and self-motivation to obtain the gems. I spent about  4-5 days figuring out how to obtain the new gems and it's not just by myself but a team of farmers narrowing down what drops and what doesn't drop. Things aren't handed down so easily.

 

 

Piggy is a hardcore farmer. I know because were in the same vending clan, and her stock amazes me :P


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#21 Filipito98

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 05:15 AM

thats why we have dungeons

Dgs isnt enought, also the drops in Dgs are gd than normal bosses, we are talking about normal bosses (kings) not DGs ones


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#22 NamirBarades

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 05:43 AM

thats why we have dungeons

the dungeons, where almost everyone just plows through them.. ignores the mobs by luring them, and then just meelees the boss to death just like every other king? Too easy.
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#23 Phish

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 12:34 PM

Very well thought out post Jerremy. You've captured the bulk of the issues of boss difficulty. The AI in Rose is primitive and monsters in general are very predictable, and whenever monsters get 'buffed' it's always to their stats. I'm not sure what the limitations to improving AI are but the things you listed seem relatively simple. Spawning minions is a good idea and very few bosses actually do this (Ulverick is one example but the smaller spiders spawn pretty infrequently).

 

The damage reduction thing is pretty significant in the way damage is calculated. I believe the damage reduction from a buff such as guard is added to your pvp/pvm damage reduction which like you said can add up to 100%, which in return causes you to take no damage. The damage reduction buff should be on a separate modifier from the pvp/pvm bonuses and be multiplied rather than added. 

 

Bosses should have more 'randomness' to them so they don't always do the same thing. For example when a boss attacks you and you run away out of its territory radius, the boss will stop attacking and run back home and it won't stop until it gets there. Which means as long as you don't stun it or taunt it, it won't even bother attacking back even if someone is attacking it. Bosses should attack back in this situation (atleast sometimes), and change targets on people near their vicinity.

 

Many classes have stackable buffs/debuffs to make them stronger in fights over periods of time. Maybe bosses should have some of these debuffs too, the Wounded (heal power reduced) effect would be especially useful. 

 

 

 

The one thing bosses don't need is more hp. This doesn't make fighting them harder, just more monotonous and boring. 

 

 


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#24 jerremy

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 01:01 PM

Many classes have stackable buffs/debuffs to make them stronger in fights over periods of time. Maybe bosses should have some of these debuffs too, the Wounded (heal power reduced) effect would be especially useful. 

Didn't think of that one, thanks for the reminder. Yeah that definitely could be added to them and would make cure have actual use in the game.

 

 

 

 

Going to add a bit of extra reasoning to the added attack speed/critical rating, since some people might just see them as staight up 'buffs', which most don't want cause it harms solofarmers.

The reason I want bosses to have higher attack speed and crit rating is so that bosses have the capacity to do both consistent DPS and burst damage, and can switch between the two at random. This makes the damage they deal less predictable and makes sure you have to pay more active attention to the game/your healthbar.

By making bosses have more crit rating, it:

1)makes people feel more inclined towards crit as a stat, and might make courage an actual proper contender to the brave set, which is currently just much better.

2)Allows for random burst damage because of the chance of a critical hit several times in a row, crit on a skill. 

Then there's increased attack speed, which is really needed right now because bosses just attack too damn slow. Also adds more consistent damage rather than a mediocre number once every two seconds.

Then if we add in the capacity to use skills properly, while the boss will still be dumb as a rock, at least its patterns will be slightly less predictable and it'll make for a more interesting fight.


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#25 jerremy

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 01:06 PM

The damage reduction thing is pretty significant in the way damage is calculated. I believe the damage reduction from a buff such as guard is added to your pvp/pvm damage reduction which like you said can add up to 100%, which in return causes you to take no damage. The damage reduction buff should be on a separate modifier from the pvp/pvm bonuses and be multiplied rather than added. 

I know I'm doubleposting here, but after reading this through another time, I realised that this URGENTLY has to be fixed. With the introduction of the new gems, there's the new Rosasite gems that give dmg reduction as a stat. Now I may be wrong and miscalculated something, but if a knight stacks these he could potentially get 100% (will be more along the lines of 99%+a certain value) dmg reduction in PVP. Ofcourse this gets somewhat counteracted by PVP offense and additional dmg buffs/passives,but it still could turn out to be very problematic.


Edited by jerremy, 23 September 2014 - 01:07 PM.

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