154 replies to this topic

[IAfjiBa]

I can agree there are some IM items that needs to be fixed so Item Mall buyers dosen't get over power over the people that dosen't buy Item Mall. 

 

Leonis knows this problem as well, but its not a easy problem to fix. I have given a tip what I like and Leonis is already working on it. 

[Leonis]

Djerba,

I appreciate your personal (and everyone's actually ) feedback and viewpoints on your perception of ROSE and it's direction and thank you for the suggestions and feedback you've given.

But ROSE has long been a "pay for convenience" game and we've been continuing on that because its best for this community with how it has expressed to us their dislike on the considerations of "pay to win." At this point, everything we offer within the Item Mall is a pay for convenience, in saving time and effort towards what can be achieved through normal in-game play.

As for ROSE's direction, it goes through its own evolution over time. As updates are implemented, other ideas are explored and suggested from the community. While largely, "content" is always asked for, the truth of the matter is as we add feature updates and expand on existing in-game features, that is content and generally adds activities to explore for any player willing. Now it may not be the new map, dungeon or monsters, that some desire, but those are also being worked on as well. The difference is, those types of content updates take a much larger amount of time to create and utilize to the point of being put in-game.

As for the business model, that's not the development team's duty. There are several other departments that make their best decisions with what's possible. You've confused a "business model" and "development plans" to be the same thing. Development doesn't do marketing, though we do work with the marketing team to explain updates and game aspects.

What you're asking for in regards to the company's vision or plans, is not my place to speak on as I am focused and responsible solely for ROSE. If you are that interested, you can try writing in through our support to see if they can provide you with a statement, as they would better be able to provide either an answer or point you in the right direction.

As for the concept that things keep changing, that is the nature of an MMORPG, there will always be changes along the future of game play as new features impact or overlap the old features in ways unconsidered. But for our development, we largely will always work towards going forward with expanding content to the rest of the planets, adding new ways of game play that make playing interesting and challenging.

At this point, I can say while we create content to be worked towards, the aspect of making the Item Mall worth investing in to for the convenience of saving that time and effort is its point. Our plans for future development change and shift based on various circumstances, including the community's state. However, once we start a project, we intend to finish it, because if we keep shifting gears based on what the community might desire at the time, it would cause a constant shift of goals for us to work towards and nothing would ever complete. So we're doing our best to take in to consideration the various aspects of content driven game play that has been asked for and working towards that one project at a time. While it may not be what is being asked for currently, it was asked for in the past with vigor and fervor. So we want to deliver that, and as time goes on we review what the state of the community is, and if any of the projects need shifting in timeline.

[WH0MP]

Do you really feel like it's pay for convenience when it's just impossible to reach refine 15 without it? Or do you think you make it pay for convenience by simply making it tradable?

[Leonis]

WH0MP, it isn't impossible to do without use of the Item Mall. It may take more effort and time, but it isn't impossible.

[angeltje]

WH0MP, it isn't impossible to do without use of the Item Mall. It may take more effort and time, but it isn't impossible.

 

i think it is possible but such a low chance that players give up cuz they feeling forced to use the im refine items.
 

[WH0MP]

It is impossible, succeeding .34 -> .29 -> .29 is mathematically VERY unlikely, and that is only 12 to 15. you fail once, you lose ALL THAT PROGRESS.

Still waiting for Feuer's non IM +15 ref, id love to see it if I remember the trouble i had with reaching damn ref 9 with hg.

[Leonis]

I just created a 15, Blade of Saint Kruez. Yes, it took a lot of money, materials and time. But I made one, with no Item Mall influence at all. 714 refines. Only took 11 to get to 5. The rest of the 703 attempts, were done with LIsent U.

 

Yes, that means it took 7030 Lisent U + Talisman & Zulie, to get there. But obtaining that is what goes in to the effort you are saving by using the Item Mall. That is the convenience you are purchasing.

[DestinyDeoxys]

I just created a 15, Blade of Saint Kruez. Yes, it took a lot of money, materials and time. But I made one, with no Item Mall influence at all. 714 refines. Only took 11 to get to 5. The rest of the 703 attempts, were done with LIsent U.

 

Yes, that means it took 7030 Lisent U + Talisman & Zulie, to get there. But obtaining that is what goes in to the effort you are saving by using the Item Mall. That is the convenience you are purchasing.

 

The funny is all the Tali/Bind/Apo/Lisent seller in junon, adding up all their Lisent U in their shop, they still don't add up to 7030 Lisent U. But you are talking about refining just one item to (15).

2m per Lisent U currently on Leonis server. So I need 14b to refine a blades of saint kruez to (15), seems legit.

[WH0MP]

And I imagine you farmed all that Lisent U yourself?

Nobody would ever do it your way as you just spend 21b on the U alone (on draco)..meaning there is no reason to not use IM as you'd be better off buying all that IM with zuly. And in reality, this amount of U is not able to be purchased. That amount of U is simply not in the market, definitely in the storages and inventories but there is no way you could consistently buy this amount for 3m each.

 

This is not convenience. This is force. If all the rich people suddenly stopped donating refining would become impossible, which means we rely on IM. Not convenience. Oh and yeah, the server would die.

Edited by WH0MP, 02 October 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[GooglyEyes]

You guys do realize that +15 is the best of the best and shouldnt be reached as easy as it was before ?

[Leonis]

I said it was possible, and it is. And yes, I know it takes a lot, but that's also up to chance as well. I personally think I have poor luck, for all the times I reached 14 and failed going to 15, it was like "UGH!!"

 

SO, believe me I very much understand, but consider reaching 15 as a refine, is top tier and intended to be difficult. The fact that the rates were so beneficial, shouldn't have been set that high with how available top tier was able to be farmed. It still gives a considerable increase over the basic rate of refining. The high desire to make things easier is your own viewpoint, but it is not forced. It is your decision on how much time and effort you wish to put in to it to achieve the same outcome.

[xultrax]

I said it was possible, and it is. And yes, I know it takes a lot, but that's also up to chance as well. I personally think I have poor luck, for all the times I reached 14 and failed going to 15, it was like "UGH!!"

 

SO, believe me I very much understand, but consider reaching 15 as a refine, is top tier and intended to be difficult. The fact that the rates were so beneficial, shouldn't have been set that high with how available top tier was able to be farmed. It still gives a considerable increase over the basic rate of refining. The high desire to make things easier is your own viewpoint, but it is not forced. It is your decision on how much time and effort you wish to put in to it to achieve the same outcome.

Q: If it was not desired the rates were SOOOO beneficial at the start, Why have they been like this for soooo long?

[Leonis]

Q: If it was not desired the rates were SOOOO beneficial at the start, Why have they been like this for soooo long?

Because the one who set those rates at the beginning, was not fully aware of the impact it had, amongst many other things that were done. After some time, that person stepped down and another took place, but had a different focus of direction. Eventually it has come to me, and why it's taken so long since I was put in charge, is because there were other aspects that were put as a higher priority to work on first. We're now reaching a point where things like this are come to surface that need adjustment.

 

The intention of the catalysts were to help players have a way to increase their chances in-game through game play effort. The amount of influence, was basically "eyeballed" and implemented without any design plans or guidelines, to what felt good. And of course, having such a high success rate would of course feel good. Unfortunately, it's become a backlash because the reality is, it made refining far too easy.

 

The short and very blunt answer, because we didn't know what we were doing and how it would affect the game long term, so we want to restore aspect of difficulty, challenge, and reward.

[LexLoyalty]

You guys do realize that +15 is the best of the best and shouldnt be reached as easy as it was before ?

 

exactly, thats the whole point.

In all the good games I know, it takes months on top of months (if not years) of grinding to get the best gear.

[xultrax]

exactly, thats the whole point.

In all the good games I know, it takes months on top of months (if not years) of grinding to get the best gear.

Well, but its not fair, that some people got it then Really Easy, and other people will have to spend months to get the new gears .

[Leonis]

Well, but its not fair, that some people got it then Really Easy, and other people will have to spend months to get the new gears .

Would you care to explain how you feel this is not fair?

The convenience of the Item Mall is to save the time it would take normally. The adding of protection and/or additional chances to succeed, is replacing the number of attempts it would otherwise take to come to the same result.

[WH0MP]

xultrax means that a few months ago people who reached 200 could either ref their gear a lot easier or buy a +15 valor/honor sets with ease. Just  feels like the list of "Things/tweaks to boost IM and screw over the gearing up new players" list is bigger by the patch.

 

And of course it is not fair, you are boosting the convenience (pushing it down our throats) of IM by cutting into the percentages our regular farmable items give.

 

You can call it whatever you want, fixing what other developers messed up or ''reducing the ability to influence the refine reaching a flip of a coin'' but it's still a nerf to boost sales end of the day

Edited by WH0MP, 02 October 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[Phish]

Just curious, are those Mystic Charms and Protective amulets intended to have a use in refining in the future since they started dropping again?

[Rooster]

I know that no one would ever agree to it but changing all +15 items (prior to the patch) to say +12 or +13 (after the patch) would have been a perfect way to adjust for old and new users. 

Yea, Yea.... I know we all earned our +15's but did we really EARN them?!?! I prefer to call them gifts.

I do agree however that the new refine rates are too difficult. A 5-10% boost upgrading from Grade 13-15 from what the current rates are seems reasonable.

Let's all feel like we earned something. Something new and rare to the market.

I miss seeing the very select few from the old days that could refine to a 9. It was AMAZING! A REAL sense of accomplishment.

[xultrax]

I know that no one would ever agree to it but changing all +15 items (prior to the patch) to say +12 or +13 (after the patch) would have been a perfect way to adjust for old and new users. 

This is what i ment , old players just got their gear with the old refining rates, making it "easy".

 

New players are now forced to use the new refine...

 

Tell a new player he needs 7k Lisent U and to refine it 700 times just for a single item , and you might not see it again .

 

 

I like the idea of reducing the existing+15 gears to +13 atleast.. seems more fair for new users or people without refined gears.

[Leonis]

xultrax means that a few months ago people who reached 200 could either ref their gear a lot easier or buy a +15 valor/honor sets with ease. Just  feels like the list of "Things/tweaks to boost IM and screw over the gearing up new players" list is bigger by the patch.

 

And of course it is not fair, you are boosting the convenience (pushing it down our throats) of IM by cutting into the percentages our regular farmable items give.

 

You can call it whatever you want, fixing what other developers messed up or ''reducing the ability to influence the refine reaching a flip of a coin'' but it's still a nerf to boost sales end of the day

While I can appreciate your opinion and viewpoint, they aren't the truth of why it was done. Past development leads have had different visions over what is and isn't fair, as well as what feels rewarding and challenging. I've taken various experiences of many games to consideration to come to the decision of making this change to have the rewards of what the refines provide as a benefit, to the effort put in to it. And the effort previously put in to it did not match the benefit when the amount of time and effort was put in to it.

 

While you may believe we're doing it to heavy hand the Item Mall, that only becomes a side effect of a decision made to game play. You may not believe me, but I don't consider the Item Mall when going over game play changes. I consider how it would be for a normal player first, then after which we will consider how the Item Mall might be able to offer a convenience to it. We want to create content that can be enjoyed and challenging to those who have the time to play. But we also understand not everyone has the endless hours to play, but still want to be able to keep up with those who might.

 

 

Just curious, are those Mystic Charms and Protective amulets intended to have a use in refining in the future since they started dropping again?

Yeah, I'm including them so they can start seeding in to game play for future use. I'd hold on to them!

 

I know that no one would ever agree to it but changing all +15 items (prior to the patch) to say +12 or +13 (after the patch) would have been a perfect way to adjust for old and new users. 

Yea, Yea.... I know we all earned our +15's but did we really EARN them?!?! I prefer to call them gifts.

I do agree however that the new refine rates are too difficult. A 5-10% boost upgrading from Grade 13-15 from what the current rates are seems reasonable.

Let's all feel like we earned something. Something new and rare to the market.

I miss seeing the very select few from the old days that could refine to a 9. It was AMAZING! A REAL sense of accomplishment.

I agree that the old ways and the effort needed to reach the old cap had an amazing sense of accomplishment! I also have a feeling that hardly anyone prior to the recent change to catalysts, felt the same way. The long term effect of this change is that it will start feeling more like an accomplishment. It may feel hard, but let's face the small fact that you still aren't losing the item when you fail, so it comes down to just trying again and hope for lady luck to be looking over your shoulder.

 

This is what i ment , old players just got their gear with the old refining rates, making it "easy".

 

New players are now forced to use the new refine...

 

Tell a new player he needs 7k Lisent U and to refine it 700 times just for a single item , and you might not see it again .

 

 

I like the idea of reducing the existing+15 gears to +13 atleast.. seems more fair for new users or people without refined gears.

That was my first attempt, future attempts could show different results because it had a bit of chance to it. I'd be willing to do it again, and continue recording my results for evidence of difference. But there's no way that we can compensate the old and the new based on the change. So it is what it is at this point and there are already plenty of other avenues for everyone to work towards obtaining strength for their build aside from refining.

[xultrax]

 But there's no way that we can compensate the old and the new based on the change. So it is what it is at this point and there are already plenty of other avenues for everyone to work towards obtaining strength for their build aside from refining.

How about making a 1 week refining boost event to compensate for the sudden change ? Or maybe using the upcomming refining materials that now drop as something to boost refining and make it easier or less time consuming

Edited by xultrax, 02 October 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[LexLoyalty]

How about making a 1 week refining boost event to compensate for the sudden change ? Or maybe using the upcomming refining materials that now drop as something to boost refining and make it easier or less time consuming

 

I don't see how it compensates new players.

What about the players that will join in two weeks ? (after the 1 week refining event)

 

I suggest that maybe once a month , the refine rates will be boosted for 1 hour or 30 mins (or less) long.

 

Also make events such as : if the server reaches X number of crystal defenders matches played within a month, the players will benefit from better refining rate for a longer period of time. ( 1 hour instead of 30 mins, 60 success rate instead of 55% , etc). This will motivate players to participate in game arena aswell.

Edited by LexLoyalty, 02 October 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[Gojio]

Leo, the thing is the gap between possibilies for IM users and non IM users is just too big. I know the whole purpose of running this game is making as many people as possible pay for their stuff, but remember a happy freeloader might eventually consider spending money on a game he likes. A pissed freeloader will most likely just quit instead.

 

The refine nerf is just too extreme imo, I think allowing the use of say 15 catalysts (or, equally, increasing the catalysts rates by 50% of the original cut)) would at least alleviate the great loss, its just an extra 10% if you use Us, but it can at least make it statistically more possible, and less people would probably complain about it.

 

Your example is perfectly ridiculous and proves how hard it is, no one would and will ever try refining ever again given your results lol. And let's say it, after you just gave away (15)s like cookies you can't just come up with the "heh but it's the best gear" excuse. If you want to introduce harder refining rates, that's fine, but do it with new gear, don't screw with the same gear and discriminate between those who refined it last week and those who are trying to refine it this week.

 

I hope this makes sense.

[SlowBob]

You guys do realize that +15 is the best of the best and shouldnt be reached as easy as it was before ?

 

i agree 100% with this, and i doubt that anyone would see an issue with it.

The thing which is bugging people is the ratio between refining with and without IM.

 

Right now you can decide to either use about 7k lisent Us, or to use about 1k lisents in combo with a few cheap IM runes.

This hardly makes +15 harder to reach, instead it makes the gap between IM users and non-IM users bigger.

Edited by SlowBob, 02 October 2014 - 04:56 PM.