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#26 Shinyusuke

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:06 AM

My point is not vcrs are bad or anything my point is that we have them since when? 6 months? Lets take a look at what vrc asked and what devs did:
VCR - Devs
Nerf priest we are too op - added bible whit more stas
Cresc gear whit only wis is useless - devs did nothing
Ml shields have less defence than lv50 ones - added raw damage modification (not bad whit purple gears quite useless whit green)
Assassins need an improvement they are too weak - added a ridicolous amount of penetration now have an heavy armor is useless

Do i have to go on? The latest ridocolous improvement was about to be implemented last patch 10 men colo... a must 3-4 months ago when the server population was really low and ppl farmed woe for bloodpoints NOW no one farm blood points in woe since they buff all the mobs and population is high and havee to become bigger in a bunch of days they wanted implement it....
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#27 LeviRD

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:50 AM

Id love to apply but im so lazy XD. Gonna copy and paste :3 (Kidding people)


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#28 Njoror

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:05 AM

People like those, are the ones that give a bad reputation to VCR's. They just want to win a position to be able to test bugs on the ITS and eventually abuse those bugs on the live server, who knows.

 

 

- My question to Njoror is:

 

If the applicants doesn't match your expectations to fill the position and there's not enough "numbers" to fill the representatives for their classes will you pick them anyway? or will you rather to get 1 out of 3 applicants or just don't have it at all.

 

Example:

A guy with a bad reputation(Troll/Macroer/Hacker) applies for Beastmaster, and he's the only one that actually applies, will you guys select him anyway cause he's the only one that applied or will you just rather to wait till there's more applicants for that class?.
 

 

The applications are going to be reviewed even if there are 3 or less, so it's possible that we do not accept someone if their application isn't up to par.


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#29 HikariKouka

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:18 AM

I want to become one but my english sux so bad  :heh:  :heh:  :heh:  :heh:  :heh:  :heh:  :heh:


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#30 Sarasah

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:20 AM

Aside from our class reports we sent in, there's been a few VCR's that have been recording bugs through out the game on specific classes, skills, and other parts of the game that aren't related to our original reports that get turned in to njoror who is forwarding them on to the devs. This last patch is a great example because alot of those bug fixes were recorded from a specific vcr.
So whether or not you want to believe the devs are even utilizing the vcr program is up to you.
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#31 Greven79

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:00 AM

I kind of agree with Shinyusuke here. 

 

It's nothing about the VCRs personally, but I have a main concern: It's nice that SETSUNAf6w has reported many bugs, but IMO that's not the only - and IMO not the main - purpose of an VCR.
 

Purpose:

What's a VCR?
 
A VCR is a Volunteer Class Representative. They will be responsible for focusing community feedback regarding a specific class and reporting on that feedback each week to Warpportal. This will involve any balance, bug, or popular suggestions that would involve the class they represent.

What am I responsible for as a VCR?
 
[...] The report will include a summary of the current state of your class, any bugs that haven't been addressed, any balance issues that have not been dealt with, and any suggestions you feel would help improve your class. [...] Any other information you feel is pertinent can be in this report as well.
 
These reports will be used in discussing the classes with the studio, so they will see them.
 
The weekly reports that are made for each class will be made public each week for the community to view and analyze.
 
This will not take the place of us visiting the feedback and other forums that have players submitting their own class feedback. The intention of the VCR is to assist us in organizing the different player perspectives of each class, so that each class has a better future. The information provided in the reports still has two filters to go through: Warpportal and Gravity.

 

To make it short:

VCR role: specialized community manager

VCR job: summarizing / pre-filtering bugs, balance concerns and change suggestions

 

WP role: quality assurance, intermediaries between customer & development

WP job: filtering the VCR reports, prioritizing content, committing change requests to Gravity

 

Gravity role: realization, stakeholder

Gravity job: prioritizing, scheduling, implementation

 

The job of the VCR was to get as much input from the community as possible, to monitor the discussions, to filter out the usual "chatting" and to summarize the relevant stuff. Njoror even created 3 special threads in every class subsection.

 

But there was not a single word that the VCRs will be used as testers and get access to new content.

 

IF beta testing and bug reporting is the main issue, SCREW the VCR system and start a separate request tester. Who cares, if there are six BM testers, but no Knight... and you could even swap the testers for each major content change.

 

Feedback:

 

The old VCR system just felt like delaying strategy and - if you want to - a fraud. Add a layer and you're not the only one to blame.

F.e. If your boss is smart. he won't fire you directly. He will hire some external "specialists" instead. So who to blame then?

  • Where was the community // VCR request for a Priest's Bible? 
  • Where's the report about armor penetration?
  • Who prioritized that the Rogues and Assassins were the most urgent ones?
  • Who thought that "fixing" a these two classes will stabilize the overall class balance?

And if we widen the scope of the VCR role:

  • Why tested the new Silent Corridor dungeon, the WoE balances, the seedrune changes?
  • Who decided to reimplement Urgent Recall although the majority voted against it?

And more generally:

  • How many issues have been solved within the last six months?

But the worst part is that the flow of information seems to stop with the VCR reports.

  • Has WarpPortal prioritized the changes?
  • How many made it to Gravity?
  • What was their response?
  • Do they plan another class balance?
  • Is there a schedule what will be next?
  • Etc., etc.

It's not that I demand a justification about all the company internals and unlike others I'm not talking about actual fixes (I'm glad that some injudicious ideas didn't make it), but about the fact that there's no feedback at all! What was worthy? What not?.... It's a mystery which class - if ever - will be changed.

 

Did I need a screen shake or map zoom? Why not implementing Kafra flight points instead? And how is it possible that Gravity sends you a package about "Colo: The Shrinking" and you didn't have the time to test it and seemed to be totally unaware of it?

 

Solution:

  1. make sure that Gravity has a real interest in such a system
  2. check plans to change the overall situation (1-shots/ ATK issues, 90%+ defense, etc)
  3. make your own report about the overall situation of the core functionalities
    => get the feedback & plans from Gravity
  4. make a list of about the general class situation and prioritize the severity
  5. summarize ALL common suggestions in a VCR report
  6. VCR report are worth nothing if there isn't a feedback from WarpPortal in return
    => so create a filtered & commented report and make it public
  7. Add the Gravity feedback with a likelyness rate, time schedule, etc.
  8. ensure that it's an ongoing cycle: U > > VCR > WP > Gravity > WP > VCR > U.

Not that hard, right?


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#32 Tonitrua

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:15 AM

[snip]

 

Looking forward to reading your VCR application if it's anywhere as detailed as this post, Greven :ok:


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#33 HikariKouka

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:30 AM

My point is not vcrs are bad or anything my point is that we have them since when? 6 months? Lets take a look at what vrc asked and what devs did:
VCR - Devs
Nerf priest we are too op - added bible whit more stas
Cresc gear whit only wis is useless - devs did nothing
Ml shields have less defence than lv50 ones - added raw damage modification (not bad whit purple gears quite useless whit green)
Assassins need an improvement they are too weak - added a ridicolous amount of penetration now have an heavy armor is useless

Do i have to go on? The latest ridocolous improvement was about to be implemented last patch 10 men colo... a must 3-4 months ago when the server population was really low and ppl farmed woe for bloodpoints NOW no one farm blood points in woe since they buff all the mobs and population is high and havee to become bigger in a bunch of days they wanted implement it....

 

They also nerfed Levicorpus of Crec without say anything in the patch note

Before even if we don't hit anyone with Levi we still able the get 50% damage reduction but they ruined it.


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#34 SETSUNAf6w

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:20 PM

I do agree with Greven's above post especially where feedback is concerned: we got close to none out of Gravity. The WarpPortal staff has been listening to all our complaints and forwarding all our reports to Gravity, but we usually don't get any feedback beyond that point and that is for the most part the devs that are to blame for it.

 

Concerning class balance, we did an initial report right after we got elected. The report is then made public on the class subforums and forwarded to Gravity Korea. We then had the occasion to discuss with the other VCRs of our class to talk about our priorities and newer issues. Njoror was very cooperative and attentive to these discussions and any reports we made was forwarded again to the devs in hope for some feedback or change. Problem is we never got any feedback whatsoever out of it, never. The devs seems to address class balancing issues in pairs of classes, that is they'll work on rogues and sins in secrecy and then move on to another pair 3 months later. The moment those class changes hits the test servers it's already too late, the changes are done and put into the live server barely a week later.

 

Concerning bug reports, it is part of our job, and we had the freedom to prioritize doing bug reports or class balancing to some degree, tho in the end we had to do both. Some VCRs like Tonitrua and me among others made youtube videos of bugs to bypass the "language barrier" of Word document reports. We didn't get any feedback out of them either but in the end a few of them got fixed in surprise patch notes and while they are far from clearing the list of bugs it is a move to the right direction.

 

Concerning new content, we are sometimes asked to hop into a test server to try new features like raids or items. On that too, we never get any feedback from the changes we ask. On the new dungeons Silent Corridor, Assassin Sanctum and Himmelmez Chamber some of our feedback was considered and some wasn't. They did a few changes from what they made us test, but never made us test those changes. Same thing can be said about Morroc WoE and other new content. There's also the fact that most patch changes never hit the test server to begin with.

 

Hope this sums it up decently. I think a lot of good things came out of the VCR program but improving communication and feedback between the publishers and the developers is a must to make our reports and efforts truly useful.


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#35 Shinyusuke

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:49 PM

I would make notice that the population doesn't have any feedback we don't know what VCR did what were the changes you mentioned what were these fixed bugs what were the ones not fixed. For what we know you may do nothing or do everything and devs just ignored too. What we ask is to know what is going on that damn server and what VCRs are doing or not doing and would be nice to know also what devs are doing

Edited by Shinyusuke, 08 October 2014 - 10:53 PM.

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#36 Greven79

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:25 AM

Looking forward to reading your VCR application if it's anywhere as detailed as this post, Greven :ok:

 

Name a class and I might consider to start a new one just for the sake of becoming a VCR. I even considered to post my own reports without being a one ^_^.

 

But all in all, I see no use in becoming a VCR. I would be forced to give a weekly report although there aren't weekly changes and I am not wicked-minded enough to be a good tester.

 

I'm one of those guys who are in for the experience, not for the reward. I switch my "mains" faster than my underwear (not really, but... you know... erm.. nvm >_>). It doesn't boost my ego to play a broken class, to use a broken skill, to one-shot people or camp the WoE entrance; and the endless grind really, really kills me. And if I look at most of the VCR nominations, there are only a few who don't call themself "pro at PvP and pro at PvE" and I'm not.

 

So if I were asked about certain changes or if I were given a file with SP costs, gear stats, etc. to fix, I'll do that for free and it would make me much, much happier.
 


Edited by Greven79, 09 October 2014 - 06:38 AM.

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#37 Telovi

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:45 AM

@Greven79

 

I go get the woods. You go make some flame out of the class that supposed to excel at it. 


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#38 Tonitrua

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 11:02 AM

I would be forced to give a weekly report although there aren't weekly changes and I am not wicked-minded enough to be a good tester.

 

We don't exactly have weekly reports or anything as stringent as the first term VCRs had, as you can see among the alterations to the VCR system Njoror posted it has been changed up a lot to improve the experience for the VCRs.

 

 

I would make notice that the population doesn't have any feedback we don't know what VCR did what were the changes you mentioned what were these fixed bugs what were the ones not fixed. For what we know you may do nothing or do everything and devs just ignored too. What we ask is to know what is going on that damn server and what VCRs are doing or not doing and would be nice to know also what devs are doing

 

Here is a list of some of the bugs I've reported that were fixed (copied from VCR forum thread), this is not counting bugs reported by the other VCRs as I don't know exactly who reported what. For every bug you see here, there are many more that are still in progress and already reported. I'm hopeful that the devs are working hard to fix many of these issues.

 

Repair Bug [Fixed]

Gold Hammer Refine Bug [Fixed]

Grey Items Bug [Fixed]

Shadow Mount / Beastmaster Bug [Fixed]

Refine Stone Glow Bug [Fixed]

Incorrect Password Dialogue Bug [Fixed]
Tiger Form Buff Cancellation Bug [Fixed]

Invisible Seventh Trade Slot Bug [Fixed]

Channel Change During Cast Skill Bug [Fixed]

Inventory Space Stacking Bug [Fixed]

Visual Range Projectile Bug [Fixed]

Trade Inventory Toggle Bug [Fixed]

Guardian Bug [Fixed]

 


Edited by Tonitrua, 09 October 2014 - 11:04 AM.

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#39 SETSUNAf6w

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:01 PM

Greven, you have been posting in class threads almost everyday for the past months I'm pretty sure you could make reports from time to time. If you take class balance as seriously as you make it seem I don't see a reason why you wouldn't apply. It's literally a task that was made for you. As for what class, pick a card, any card. You seem to know all classes to the point of rewriting them all I'm sure any classes you pick would be a good choice. There's a few classes that never gets any VCR applications that's why we need people active in the community like you.


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#40 Greven79

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 03:52 AM

Greven, you have been posting in class threads almost everyday for the past months I'm pretty sure you could make reports from time to time. If you take class balance as seriously as you make it seem I don't see a reason why you wouldn't apply. It's literally a task that was made for you. As for what class, pick a card, any card. You seem to know all classes to the point of rewriting them all I'm sure any classes you pick would be a good choice. There's a few classes that never gets any VCR applications that's why we need people active in the community like you.

 

Maybe I will choose one... who knows. Maybe the one with the least applications or the one that I dislike the most. But don't count on it.

 

The thing is that I already made my points in the appropriate threads and up 'till now, none of my ideas ever made it into a VCR report (maybe except for the "open a separate pre-AoV server" part). In fact, my feedback was rather unwanted.

 

I also printed the "prerequisites" I have if you want to in my reply above. The current WoE changes, rumors about the new seeds and the late "fixes" of the Assassin leave the impression that neither Gravity nor WP has the slightest interest of what I'd call a class balance. The Assassins were pushed to the level of a Warrior rather than fixing the current BT issues. The guardians, etc. were boosted to match the current defense rates and heal amounts, rather than considering that a 90% defense rate is plain stupid. Seeds are considered "unfair" by many players, yet Gravity plans to introduce new ones. And so on, and so on.


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#41 Tonitrua

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:33 PM

The thing is that I already made my points in the appropriate threads and up 'till now, none of my ideas ever made it into a VCR report (maybe except for the "open a separate pre-AoV server" part). In fact, my feedback was rather unwanted.

I may disagree with some of your opinions as well, but isn't that the point of having more than one VCR? You clearly care about the game a lot in order to write all of those detailed posts, that's exactly what we need in the VCRs.


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#42 Vau

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 12:19 AM

The thing is that I already made my points in the appropriate threads and up 'till now, none of my ideas ever made it into a VCR report (maybe except for the "open a separate pre-AoV server" part). In fact, my feedback was rather unwanted.

 

I've been reading your Feedback on almost every sub-class forum and your main problem is your need to prove your superiority over the rest of people giving feedback. You're literally shutting-down others opinions because you put math and comparison among classes that simply doesn't work the same.

 

One thing is proposing ideas on the VCR thread and a different story is denying people ideas. That's another thing to keep in mind when there's 2 or more VCR's on a class, you push things out together, not endless discussion about certain skills.


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#43 Greven79

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:26 AM

I've been reading your Feedback on almost every sub-class forum and your main problem is your need to prove your superiority over the rest of people giving feedback. You're literally shutting-down others opinions because you put math and comparison among classes that simply doesn't work the same.

 

One thing is proposing ideas on the VCR thread and a different story is denying people ideas. That's another thing to keep in mind when there's 2 or more VCR's on a class, you push things out together, not endless discussion about certain skills.

 

First of all, I use math because it's easy to proof me wrong. Of course I could state:

  • "Don't touch my heals, I like them"
  • "Heals are just fine"
  • "i don't want to lose my hide... i'm supposed to be stealthy"
  • "I am telling what I see from experience"
  • "You don't know class <xxx>"

as well, but there are no approvable facts in these statements, no sort of validity.

 

Using the same method, I could state that Heals are too weak, that Assassins still need more armor penetration and that a Warrior has to have a higher crit. chance. This also gets amusing when you visit the monk's subsection. There you'll find both sides: "Nerf monk" and "monks are too weak". Now try to argue against any of these statements.

 

It also gets kind of weird from time to time, because I rarely state that a certain idea is wrong. Instead, I usually state my doubts that the idea would fix a certain issue, formulate a different angle of view or question the argumentation behind a certain suggestion.

 

  • F.e. if a VCR states that a Sorcerer needs more Vigor, I didn't say that this is wrong. Instead, I stated that this class gets a high crit. chance instead and that there seems to be a pattern that only one of these stats will be seen on gear. Blame me for that!
     
  • I never said that the Beastmasters can't have a damage reflection. I only stated that this mechanic is hard to balance, can range from uselessness to totally brokenness and causes implementation issues depending on how your own defense // damage reduction affects the damage reflexion. Unbearable!
     
  • I never stated that you can't make DoTs affected by armor, but I doubted that this would then end up balanced, when Heals are left unaffected. How rude!
     
  • And of course, I never said that I create a better video about Siege Weapons, only that I'd enjoy some additional features. What a troll!

 

And it's the same thing with the discussion about Rogues lately... I never said anything about whether a Rogue or a Wizard is better for grinding. I only stated that Rolling Cutter can't be the only skill to blame. But of course, it's then easy to change the discussion from "general grinding issues" to "compare this to a ML30 Wizard with seeds that has almost no cast time".

 

And of course you can then take your friends an make a mockery about me in the chat... and then all can play innocent and wonder why I don't share IGNs and why I hesistate to apply as a VCR, especially if there might be Pr3, SageLief, GLC, Fluidz, TamIen, DietSoda & co.?

So maybe you should ask Njoror for a Collision-only testserver. He seems to be in mood of starting new ones lately.


Edited by Greven79, 20 October 2014 - 12:38 AM.

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#44 Vau

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 01:23 PM

First of all, I use math because it's easy to proof me wrong. Of course I could state:

  • "Don't touch my heals, I like them"
  • "Heals are just fine"
  • "i don't want to lose my hide... i'm supposed to be stealthy"
  • "I am telling what I see from experience"
  • "You don't know class <xxx>"

as well, but there are no approvable facts in these statements, no sort of validity.

 

Using the same method, I could state that Heals are too weak, that Assassins still need more armor penetration and that a Warrior has to have a higher crit. chance. This also gets amusing when you visit the monk's subsection. There you'll find both sides: "Nerf monk" and "monks are too weak". Now try to argue against any of these statements.

 

It also gets kind of weird from time to time, because I rarely state that a certain idea is wrong. Instead, I usually state my doubts that the idea would fix a certain issue, formulate a different angle of view or question the argumentation behind a certain suggestion.

 

  • F.e. if a VCR states that a Sorcerer needs more Vigor, I didn't say that this is wrong. Instead, I stated that this class gets a high crit. chance instead and that there seems to be a pattern that only one of these stats will be seen on gear. Blame me for that!
     
  • I never said that the Beastmasters can't have a damage reflection. I only stated that this mechanic is hard to balance, can range from uselessness to totally brokenness and causes implementation issues depending on how your own defense // damage reduction affects the damage reflexion. Unbearable!
     
  • I never stated that you can't make DoTs affected by armor, but I doubted that this would then end up balanced, when Heals are left unaffected. How rude!
     
  • And of course, I never said that I create a better video about Siege Weapons, only that I'd enjoy some additional features. What a troll!

 

And it's the same thing with the discussion about Rogues lately... I never said anything about whether a Rogue or a Wizard is better for grinding. I only stated that Rolling Cutter can't be the only skill to blame. But of course, it's then easy to change the discussion from "general grinding issues" to "compare this to a ML30 Wizard with seeds that has almost no cast time".

 

And of course you can then take your friends an make a mockery about me in the chat... and then all can play innocent and wonder why I don't share IGNs and why I hesistate to apply as a VCR, especially if there might be Pr3, SageLief, GLC, Fluidz, TamIen, DietSoda & co.?

So maybe you should ask Njoror for a Collision-only testserver. He seems to be in mood of starting new ones lately.

 

I don't want to dig more into this but if you want VCR's to listen your suggestions, find an agreement on your replies on each class you reply, i'm not saying you are wrong on your statements for some skills that need changes but you need to see the picture as a whole. Most of the unbalance on the game isn't about certain skills being OP, but common issues that  needs to be adressed:

 

1º Min-max and Attack power Formula

2º Vigor Formula and Cooldowns.

3º Seed runes

4º Gear/accessories stats

 

If you fix those, first than fixing a skill, you will notice what's really going on with RO2. Most of the VCR's are people playing the game since May 2013, they know what's going on their class, if you, treat them like ignorants they probably won't listen to you even if you are right.

 

About mocking people and certain guilds owning VCRs:

 

We don't mock at people that bring arguments to their statements, don't take it too far, we're not talking about Greven's posts all day, some arguments are just a waste of time, cause each VCR knows what's going on.

Normally, the top guilds apply for VCR cause they are experienced players PvP/PvE related, this is not a race, it's already proven, you don't win anything being a VCR more than frustration, more responsibility and more bug reports. The only advantage is being able to join the test server, which you need a "partner" to test stuff, and having a little information of the upcoming updates which most of them are bugged on the ITS.

But yeah, if you're going to apply alone, and you're not up to hang with anyone, you will fail as a VCR,  it is mostly a team work, you shouldn't be scared of mockery if you're not retarded. Most of the guys you mentioned are very cool if you talk with in a cool way, if you're going to be aggressive on chatting, then there's no way anyone will like you.
 

This is just like real life jobs but you don't get paid on here........


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#45 9261140924193741093

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:02 PM

I think it's a bit unfair to reduce the vit to hp ratio of archer.. from 1:15 down to 1:13.. of all classes in ragnarok. archer doesn't have any healing abilities. and should have maintain it to 1:15.


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#46 Shinyusuke

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:53 PM

I think it's a bit unfair to reduce the vit to hp ratio of archer.. from 1:15 down to 1:13.. of all classes in ragnarok. archer doesn't have any healing abilities. and should have maintain it to 1:15.

Hey knight here whit 1 vit 12 hp don't complain everyone got a reduction, do you prefer the old 1vit 8hp?
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