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Salamander Flames too over powered


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#76 joelhouse09

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 04:39 AM

how to kill 10clerics(9bc 1fs) in cd with 40 salamander sleep mute. . .since cd is open for all lol. .with IM revive(0sp)?purify aoe?mute?stun?

Edited by joelhouse09, 04 October 2014 - 05:23 AM.

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#77 NamirBarades

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 04:56 AM


I mean it may seems like they heal a lot, but they're only healing as much as people are receiving damage (which is pretty high atm). it's just that they're more efficient at doing that.

 

That right there, is the problem. Exactly what I am getting at.  One skill shouldn't be doing all the healing of the people receiving damage more efficiently then the player themselves. What happened to relying on some player skill?   We already have 8+ heals, 4+ aoe heals. And half of those I think are already overpowered. It was different in Union war where your single party heal only helped a party of six--here it helps all 10 people on your side. You have four heals that already instantly heal everyone around you(A seperate topic but something I complained a lot about when the skill update was first done).   We don't need one skill that outweighs those put together... in spades. This is whats attributing to CD's being extra ridiculous beyond each side just having too many clerics when one side has one or none.  People don't die enough--It already came down to how many clerics does your side have, now its how many clerics and salamanders do you have.  Those salamanders are like adding an extra half cleric onto your side--yeah maybe not at the same level of you(in the plural), but they sure as hell are doing a lot of healing.  Everyone who has gotten them has essentially double and tripled their healing.  Yes, damage output has been upped(A seperate issue all together), but not that much. 

 

Do you want to know why I haven't gotten them? And this isn't to any offense to anyone who has, its just a personal stance--Because I don't like adding to the game being stupid.  I don't think they belong in pvp at all, but thats me personally.  I miss the face paced war that had people all over the place, not the clerics stand still and spam heal war we have now(some points, although put a little roughly, were covered by iMatt). This isn't fun, its easy and why people get bored really quickly.  


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#78 joelhouse09

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:07 AM

make summon gem pvm lol. Make giant salamander flames remove dragon. . .or reduce 60 gauze to 30gauze lol.
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#79 Feuer

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:18 AM

I wanna see someone actually uild a team like that,. just, i just wonna see it lmao


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#80 angeltje

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:36 AM

Nerf the cleric wtf. Stop nerfing..
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#81 Squipy

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:48 AM

I dont really see the issue with that if you think of them as just another type of party heal. the player themselves still has the job of casting it just like any other party heal, only difference is that they need to maintain it because it's a periodic heal over time

i know it's not much of a challenge to stand in one spot n heal, but because of how things are atm, tanking is likely the best form of defense in CD rather than high mspeed. if you run around too much you're less efficient at healing your team since they clearly need to be healed now. not that I enjoy being immobile and slow as hell. but it is what it is~ i think it has changed after the update, ive noticed people dying at a faster rate. so I feel like these flames are actually pretty helpful now.
yea a lot of people are not happy with the game, damage output, skill imbalance, certain game dynamics and what not. sometimes I find its easier to just go with it and adapt to whatever rather than trying to get them to change things around over and over -_-
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#82 NamirBarades

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:13 AM

I dont really see the issue with that if you think of them as just another type of party heal. the player themselves still has the job of casting it just like any other party heal, only difference is that they need to maintain it because it's a periodic heal over time

i know it's not much of a challenge to stand in one spot n heal, but because of how things are atm, tanking is likely the best form of defense in CD rather than high mspeed. if you run around too much you're less efficient at healing your team since they clearly need to be healed now. not that I enjoy being immobile and slow as hell. but it is what it is~ i think it has changed after the update, ive noticed people dying at a faster rate. so I feel like these flames are actually pretty helpful now.
yea a lot of people are not happy with the game, damage output, skill imbalance, certain game dynamics and what not. sometimes I find its easier to just go with it and adapt to whatever rather than trying to get them to change things around over and over -_-

 

So the point that I could heal more than all my other heals together.. just by spamming one heal isnt an issue at all?  I don't know any other party heal that I could use *only* that skill and have 1.2m worth of heals.   You're not seeing the issue with that?  Really, those numbers don't raise your eyebrow even just a little?  Maintaining it is just hitting a button every time I hit the rest of my party heals. There is only the global cooldown stopping me and thats not much at all.  I'd be happy to do the same test with a party heal only, if you'd like to see the difference of skill vs skill.  I can even use the higher level party heal to show what the different level of skill points spent will get me. 

 

Yes, I acknowledge that people are dieing faster, but thats a seperate issue and being talked about in a different thread.  Yes, it sort of relates, but if it should be reflected in all our heals(Although, I don't think they need that much of a boost at all to reflect this new damage output, but thats my opinion on that and off topic to this)--it should be reflected across the skills not be so weighted to one skill that it outshines all the other ones together.  I wouldn't say evenly across the skills because the heals getting better as you get the higher ranked one makes sense, but still..

 

And I'm really sorry that you're okay with going along with status quo even after you said you don't like it, it seems to be the stance of more and more players lately and its really disappointing to see.  I would like to see this game be good again so the 'glory days,' whatever that may be for everyone, do not become something only relived by watching old videos on youtube. 


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#83 Gojio

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:47 AM

Possible solutions:

 

1) Reduce the aoe of the flames, and add a small cooldown (2-3 seconds sounds fine)

2) Apply a cap of players that can be healed by a party heal (ex. Integrity: Heals up to 5 allies by "x" HP) so that clerics will actually have to use all those single target heals every now and then and move around if they want to heal someone in urgent need (not that they dont move at all now, but lately healing is pretty much a stationary job). In this case, the reduction of flames aoe is not really needed.


Edited by Gojio, 04 October 2014 - 06:48 AM.

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#84 Filipito98

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:55 AM

easy nerf? aite, remove the summon gauge gem :), there, btw most of pvp support clerics have mute, what u expect? there might be somewere in forums saying a build for pvp support clerics, thats y everyone chose mute, mine is like 100% support, no mute, no sleep, just heals, buffs, magic tool and flames/bonfire, the pvp build for me dunno ... is kinda strage, mutch waste of mana pots, a FS cleric in pvp can be like 10 hours healing the team without pots, but since most use pvp cleric, they waste more zulie than my build. wasnt expecting seeing mutch clerics changing them pvp gear with charm gem/substat to summon gauge o.O. but w/e, my sugestion FOR DONT NERF THE CLERICS, remove the summon gauge gem, wich means in max a pvp cleric can have only 2 flames, if u guys nerf heals/flame heals/bonfire heals, nerf everything than.

edit: btw if is me in pvp as a cleric, i use all heals and flames, not only aoes and flames only, before the match start i do like cure to all due a buff, after that i aoe integrity for everyone have the buff for 30 seconds, after that sometimes i forget to integrity aoe soo they need to hand by themselfs, but mostly i target one of my friends/knight/random to heal, how many zulie i waste in mp? 0, and my def is scks btw


Edited by Filipito98, 04 October 2014 - 06:57 AM.

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#85 Squipy

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:56 AM

well, I remember what my were heals were like before and after I got salamander flames. Before flames, the most healing I ever did was around 4m after a hectic war. After flames, the most I did in the same kind of war was 5.9m. I think the regular heals still contribute more than flames do. of course, this was before the summon gauge gem and I haven't been in any really good CDs yet. but even with the gauge gem, i can only maintain about 1-2 flames at a time consistently anyway. so it's hard to say. 


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#86 Filipito98

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:00 AM

advise for clerics, if u guys wana do like more heal in pvp, dont put summon gauge gems, cause other time i was doing a CD with my friends/clanny and some random ppl, most said for i dont do flames cause guess wat? i would lose time in doing flames spaming them than healing them, soo yah dont change u int/mp recovery or hp recovery or 30 charm 10 mp/hp recovery to that gem summon gauge, thats a ultra waste of time and fun :)


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#87 Feuer

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:35 AM

You know whats really funny, this isn't about the summon gauge, it's about clerics, again. Anyone noticing a trend where after every major patch or expansion clerics are the "hot topic" and the ones mostly complaining or being complained about? 


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#88 NamirBarades

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:42 AM

 

well, I remember what my were heals were like before and after I got salamander flames. Before flames, the most healing I ever did was around 4m after a hectic war. After flames, the most I did in the same kind of war was 5.9m. I think the regular heals still contribute more than flames do. of course, this was before the summon gauge gem and I haven't been in any really good CDs yet. but even with the gauge gem, i can only maintain about 1-2 flames at a time consistently anyway. so it's hard to say. 

 

 

Okay.. Lets take your estimates and poke them a little.  You probably have 8 or 9 active heals you use.  For the sake of example, we'll say all heal skills heal equally.  So you're saying each skill heals ~450m(thats ~4m/9, I rounded up  to 450 to make it easier).  Now you're saying with the addition of that one skill you're using you are doing ~5.9m.  5.9m - 4m is ~1.9m .  Lets say for the sake of the problem that you maintained 2 salamander flames at all time.  Thats ~1.9m/2 = ~950m per salamander flame.   So you're saying that one skill is doing over twice the amount of any of the others--when you don't even have it used to its maximum level.    used to maximum level thats still almost 2m over all your other skills put together.  No skill should be that powerful. 

 

But of course the heals contribute more.. because you have 9 of those skills, not just one.. 


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#89 NamirBarades

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:46 AM

You know whats really funny, this isn't about the summon gauge, it's about clerics, again. Anyone noticing a trend where after every major patch or expansion clerics are the "hot topic" and the ones mostly complaining or being complained about? 

 

Cleric is the *only* class I play seriously, note again that *I* am the one bringing up an issue with my own class.  I don't see an issue with me pointing out that one of my own skills is overpowered. Stop trying to start things in my thread please.

 

If champs had a single skill that did 16k in damage, I assure you I'd be posting on the forums about it.  I don't play other classes much so can't weight in on how op they are by how I use them.. because I don't. 

 

And for the record, I noticed this before the gem patch, I just needed to have the time to test it on a viable cleric and didn't want to waste the zuly on my main. 


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#90 bl0b

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 08:01 AM

You have to realise, not all support clerics have the flames, and from those that do, only a few out of them may be able to summon four flames at a go. If this is the case, I see it as a personal play style since those clerics would be sacrificing a bit of other skill or stat points or whatever to be able to use those flames, even though it may not be much. And like said in previous posts, they can easily be killed in seconds. When I do play cleric in CD, I don't have time to summon flames(Mana flames) through a wave, even if I do manage to get one down, it's immediately taken out. The only times you can use flames properly are in between waves or for the initial wave burst so they're not much help during a wave. That's just my opinion anyways. Another thing, your calculations are based upon having 4 flames up, and I agree with you, 9% times 4, 36% per 3 seconds, 12% per second is alot, the thing is, its pretty hard to keep those flames up. as they can be killed so easily.  From that particular CD screenshot , which I'm sure we lost, having up 4 hp might heal alot, but are no where near as competent as a cleric dedicated to single target and party heals.

 

 


Edited by bl0b, 04 October 2014 - 08:06 AM.

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#91 NamirBarades

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 08:27 AM

My calculations are all based on one to two flames up... not four.

Edited by NamirBarades, 04 October 2014 - 08:28 AM.

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#92 Squipy

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 08:36 AM

ya it is powerful, but so are many summons. phantom swords, hawks, dread knight, some could even do more damage than players themselves, especially if theres a bunch of them. i think its fine because its something that helps your team and helps u tank. but its not so op that it makes the difference between winning or losing, as that cd demonstrates
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#93 bl0b

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 09:01 AM

My calculations are all based on one to two flames up... not four.

Sorry, I was commenting on iMatts post, my bad.

Saying it here again: 9% hp / second x4 (through summon gauge gem bug abuse) = 36% hp/ 3 seconds
 

 

Even though those figures might seem like alot, they are classes which can easily out damage the healing of 4 salamder flames, and I'm talking about aoe's, not single target. At the same time, taking out the flames. 


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#94 Filipito98

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 09:10 AM

everytime i do flames i just need 2 for keep my members alive, 4 for me is like, no i will not 4 flames, waste of mana, 2 enought + my heals i can keep my team alive if they cooperate easly, i dont even need to summon mana flame, but i even have like wen is for buff and for others recover mana fast. and actually feuer, the summon gauge is about also clerics too, how can they 4 sala without the gems? answere me :), and doing calculates again 36% by the 4 sala + all the heals is like 100/200% of healing power, now imagine 2/3 clerics in each team, how it would be? easly, like 600/700% of heal power, wich made the pvp more bored due that (depends but for me is ultra bored).


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#95 Leeny

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 09:49 AM

I do not get it. You did not use the flames. You even said that you did not bother getting the the flames. Then how can you automatically label it as OP? I am just wondering. You can play it anyway that you want, but why do you want people to play the game by using your way, too.

 

you my friend, are either blind, or misread what I wrote, and do you really think you have be the casting cleric to realize how strong a summon heal is? please now, use your head for once in this thread. I'm reading everything you're replying to people and...well nevermind. Just use your head for once.


Edited by Leeny, 04 October 2014 - 09:51 AM.

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#96 ChampPower

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 04:47 PM

you my friend, are either blind, or misread what I wrote, and do you really think you have be the casting cleric to realize how strong a summon heal is? please now, use your head for once in this thread. I'm reading everything you're replying to people and...well nevermind. Just use your head for once.


May I ask what I have miss-read from your post? Each salamander flame heals 9% per every 3 seconds. 4 flames heal 36% per every 3 seconds. Some of you consider that as OP. However, as many players have said. The flames have weak defense and low HP. 1 or 2 AOE and all the flames will be destroyed. If the cleric wants to spam the flame, he has no time for heal. In addition, the new flame will also be destroyed as soon as it is created because it has low def and HP. Therefore, I do see any problem here unless everybody play raider. However, if everybody play raider, then the DEV Team should seriously nerf the raider because it shows the raider as the OP class when everybody plays raider.

Edited by ChampPower, 04 October 2014 - 09:09 PM.

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#97 Pigggybank

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:54 PM

Did you guys forget that raiders stack wounded upon clerics rendering cleric effectiveness to optimize their self-heals? Even when using cure to remove these wounded stack, the frequency of these stacks pressure clerics so much.   This isn't one raider smacking clerics around but a mob of them.  With the popularity of raiders among Crystal defenders, Clerics would have to counter an ambush of raiders with Salamanders and when that happens this topic is posted.  Salamanders are still flawed because if your teammates were to scatter it makes Salamanders utter useless. Go ahead nerf clerics and see what will happen to the activity of Crystal defenders.


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#98 LexLoyalty

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:56 PM

LOL is 2,5 sec cooldown even a nerf ?


Edited by LexLoyalty, 04 October 2014 - 06:56 PM.

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#99 Pigggybank

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:07 PM

Lol why so mad?

Btw Matt doesn't only play raider

 

 

It's the fact that he's the RAIDER REPRESENTATIVE  and I know that Salamander counter Raiders from ambushing Clerics.


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#100 Feuer

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:13 PM

-pulls out popcorn cannon- OBEY!!

On topic, I think everyone has clearly stated their opinions here. 

@Namir, I wasn't gunning for the whole "Cleric blah blah" part, I was just making sure it was clear that it's not from the summon guage gem, you yourself said it was a problem even before that. Which is all I was attempting to point out. 


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