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An "Intelligent" Discussion about Champs


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#1 Bendersmom

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 06:00 AM

I know very little about the mechanics of a champ. I am just making one, only lvl 100 now, to see how they work. Most of what I know has been at the receiving end of attacks in UW as a full support cleric (not pretty).

It seems to me that for one champs are too fast (which has been discussed before). It also seems to me that their defense is very high compared to the amount of damage they can do in a short time. They have gotten very hard to kill (I know a lot use jellies, aruas and pots to stay alive but they are so hard to kill now).

Are they overpowered? (champs honest opinion here) or is it just the pots, jellies and aruas?
What are some of the changes people would like to see for champs?
Are there a few things to change so they are not so overpowered without nerfing them?
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#2 Metaleux

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 06:05 AM

Weapon requirements for skills would help balance it out I think, not that I look forward to it since I have a champ.
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#3 BrownBear

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 06:10 AM

I have always felt they have too much defense and general tanking ability for their ability to deal damage. Since they emerged as the dominant class, I have been asking for some of their defense passives to get nerfed/converted/removed. The amount of AP:def I can get as a knight is a bit below 1:2. Champs are probably squarely around 1:1, with their values being closer to what knight defense is rather than knight AP.

Their movement speed is still really high. I don't know if a lot of them are using speed boosters or whatnot, but maybe a reduction in the amount of movement speed provided by quick step can help. Maybe convert the sub-100 spear passive to attack speed as well. Maybe both. That is up to the dev team. They don't even need charge with how much speed they can achieve just off passives. I think quick step is more to blame than the spear passive though.

Defense and movement speed, those are the starting points. Tinker with those stats, then see if more needs to be done.

Skill requirements would also help reduce the champs ability to get high movement speed and high accuracy, but quick step might still make them too fast. At least we would have less stuns to worry.

Edited by BrownBear, 13 November 2010 - 06:13 AM.

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#4 Bendersmom

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 08:08 AM

I think something has to be adjusted but I don't want to be one of those ppl saying "OMG champs need to be nerfed". It just doesn't seem right to have one class able to wipe out the people around the mid crystal with a few aoes and then be so hard to kill. I am not one to say a class should be nerfed, I am happy to see champs back. I just think a few adjustments need to be made.
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#5 Pavorosa

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 10:23 AM

In my opinion, champs are overpowered. In UW perspective, they would just run in the middle of the crystal aoe and run while most people aren't able to catch them. Their class has the most powerful and rigged combination; high attack power, high defense, high m-speed, and high a-speed. I mean a champ doesn't even need that good of a gear to rampage and kill a lot of people in war just because of those combination. And like what other people said, the weapon requirement. Either remove other weapon requirement for other classes or add restriction for the champs.
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#6 HellGuardian

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 11:25 AM

Either remove other weapon requirement for other classes or add restriction for the champs.


In my opinion, their Aoe's have too much debuffs and skill cool down almost near to none. Most people in game will get glitch with a simple aoe and follow by 1-2 skill/aoe combo. No matter how much they sacrifice on AP gear and use Mspd gear, they can still out run a raider and hit like a bulldozer. Maybe scale down their AP passive or skill damage, along with their Mspd passive?
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#7 Silwok

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 12:26 PM

I think they are just too strong in too many areas tbh, Personally I think they should just try lowering there defense and let them keep the movespeed. Atleast makes sense ditching the strong heavy armor to be able to run faster and swing ya sword easier!

*Edit* Well maybe do something about movespeed, i think they should be slower than hawkers but have the advantage of more ap/defense compared to them.

It will take more than just nerfing champs to make the game more fun and fair tho, although personally I don't mind I like the challenge of playing against a stronger class, makes the victory that much sweeter :P

Edited by Silwok, 13 November 2010 - 12:41 PM.

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#8 Phish

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 01:42 PM

Are they overpowered? (champs honest opinion here) or is it just the pots, jellies and aruas?



The latter is obviously more overpowered, any class can use item mall buffs and jellybeans and run train on a bunch of people. But, those combined with the champs already high stats, and devastating aoes can cause alot of damage.


I have always felt they have too much defense and general tanking ability for their ability to deal damage. Since they emerged as the dominant class, I have been asking for some of their defense passives to get nerfed/converted/removed. The amount of AP:def I can get as a knight is a bit below 1:2. Champs are probably squarely around 1:1, with their values being closer to what knight defense is rather than knight AP.


Champs can get much higher defense than their attack power, but then again, practically every class but mages can and usually do. I do agree they have too much defense though but I think everyone does, the defense passive in the champ tree should be removed.



Defense and movement speed, those are the starting points. Tinker with those stats, then see if more needs to be done.


I agree with this.
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#9 Xros

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 02:50 PM

Weapon requirements for skills


this is the one thing that I kept suggesting on all champ threads over and over.. i mean it's really odd to see for example for a 2H-Axe champ to get advanced 2hsword and spear mastery skills to benefit from the passives.. and get aoes from 2hsword and spear.. and vice versa.. spear or 2hsword champs getting axe stun skills..

the next thing is mspd, I do believe that champs should not be at the 1st or 2nd place for mspd.. it would be better if they're 3rd (the spear, if they put weapon requirements to skills, both actives and passives) and/or 4th place (2h-Sword/2H-Axe)..
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#10 kaminichuan

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 08:20 PM

It seems to me that for one champs are too fast (which has been discussed before). It also seems to me that their defense is very high compared to the amount of damage they can do in a short time. They have gotten very hard to kill.


Very true.

Being on the receiving end is devastating. What bothers me most is the m-speed, It would probably be more fair if they were actually slower than other classes.
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#11 DarkGero

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 10:51 PM

It just doesn't seem right to have one class able to wipe out the people around the mid crystal with a few aoes and then be so hard to kill.


to be perfectly honest i think its has alot to do with the "reliable weapon" sticker they put on alot of the skills and all of the aoes as well as partly due to the debuffs that are attributed to the aoes as well.

a good champ can have an aoe going every cool down causing alot of damage to alot of players and it will never ever miss, either change it so that each aoe hit has a chance to miss based on players level/dodge/and aoer's acc

or alternatively have it so that the damage is capped not by the amount it hits players for but a reduction for the number of players it hits. ie an aoe hits 2 players it hits them for 4k damage a piece, same aoe hits 7 players it hits them all for 2k a piece (numbers may vary depending on what is deemed acceptable by devs)

as well as the high def that they get from passives and having (15) refined gear although i do agree if they have gone through the effort to buy or make 15 gear they should be rewarded with a reasonably high defense

EDIT: forgot to put in "An "Intelligent" Discussion about Champs Can we keep it intelligent?" silly boy champs don't need int

Edited by DarkGero, 13 November 2010 - 10:53 PM.

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#12 Phish

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 10:57 PM

Reliable skills still are based off of your acc vs the opponents dodge, they will only do 50% damage when they miss rather than 0. I don't think we we should make more skills unreliable until they fix (if they actually ever) the additionaly damage bug affecting non reliable skills.

Making the aoes do less damage for the more people it hits is interesting, but that will also affected other classes and it kind of removes the advantage aoe attacks have (whether or not that is good).

Lastly, of how poorly refines scale after 10, havng 15 gear doesn't even make that big of a difference. A refine 15 armor has only about 23% more defense/mdef than a refine 10. Considering how defense scales at a diminishing return it almost seems like a double negative to have the refine rates diminish also.
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#13 BrownBear

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 05:18 AM

to be perfectly honest i think its has alot to do with the "reliable weapon" sticker they put on alot of the skills and all of the aoes as well as partly due to the debuffs that are attributed to the aoes as well.

a good champ can have an aoe going every cool down causing alot of damage to alot of players and it will never ever miss, either change it so that each aoe hit has a chance to miss based on players level/dodge/and aoer's acc

or alternatively have it so that the damage is capped not by the amount it hits players for but a reduction for the number of players it hits. ie an aoe hits 2 players it hits them for 4k damage a piece, same aoe hits 7 players it hits them all for 2k a piece (numbers may vary depending on what is deemed acceptable by devs)

as well as the high def that they get from passives and having (15) refined gear although i do agree if they have gone through the effort to buy or make 15 gear they should be rewarded with a reasonably high defense

EDIT: forgot to put in "An "Intelligent" Discussion about Champs Can we keep it intelligent?" silly boy champs don't need int


I don't think we can attribute this to reliable skills. The only people those actually matter against are hawkers. And it isn't only hawkers who feel this way. I do see where you are coming from, but I think we can tinker with other areas first.

The aoe suggestion is interesting, but it would be quite a nerf to aoes in general. Probably affect PvM as well and cause a lot of complaining. It makes sense, but I have never seen aoes implemented this way in any game. There must be a reason for that.

If you have 15 gear, you should be harder to kill. But the thing is, half these fools (champs) are running around in far less than 15s and still take ages to kill. At the same time they are outputting quite a bit of damage. For their offensive abilities, they tank too much. If they weren't so deadly offensively, this wouldn't be a problem. But they should be good at offense, so addressing the defense would probably be the best way to go.
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#14 DarkGero

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 05:39 AM

I don't think we can attribute this to reliable skills. The only people those actually matter against are hawkers. And it isn't only hawkers who feel this way. I do see where you are coming from, but I think we can tinker with other areas first.

The aoe suggestion is interesting, but it would be quite a nerf to aoes in general. Probably affect PvM as well and cause a lot of complaining. It makes sense, but I have never seen aoes implemented this way in any game. There must be a reason for that.

If you have 15 gear, you should be harder to kill. But the thing is, half these fools (champs) are running around in far less than 15s and still take ages to kill. At the same time they are outputting quite a bit of damage. For their offensive abilities, they tank too much. If they weren't so deadly offensively, this wouldn't be a problem. But they should be good at offense, so addressing the defense would probably be the best way to go.


its probably not the only cause for it but its one of the biggest ive seen, when you take away the ability to miss you allow for builds that are based on raw power. im not saying that skills shouldnt have a higher chance to hit but there should be some room to allow for misses otherwise whats the point in having a dodge stat to begin with? this would also allow for melee classes to actually get in next to classes with multiple aoes without having to constantly worry about the 4k damage every 2 seconds.

the aoe suggestion is actually from wow a while back they rearranged the aoe skills so that people couldnt lure up excessively large groups of mobs and take them all down in 3-4 aoes im talking like 80+ mobs thats why they put a cap on the amount of damage that could be done in total by the aoe split by the number of mobs that were present. with rose the number would have to be lower than that due to the limited number of mobs u can lure or number of people in pvp. but if you think of it from a logical standpoint you stand in the middle of 2 people hold out an open hand and spin you might hit them equally as hard... now line up 6 people and do the same the last few people you slap wont get hit as hard if at all. its not a matter of nerfing the aoe classes but more an adjustment to make them not able to take down large groups of players or mobs as easily. (as much as it would suck to farm its not right that certain classes can do better on their own than those that have to use a party).

agreed to the last part the defense is probably too high as is the movement speed but if you lower both too quickly you leave them too vulnerable in pvp
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#15 BrownBear

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 07:11 AM

its probably not the only cause for it but its one of the biggest ive seen, when you take away the ability to miss you allow for builds that are based on raw power. im not saying that skills shouldnt have a higher chance to hit but there should be some room to allow for misses otherwise whats the point in having a dodge stat to begin with? this would also allow for melee classes to actually get in next to classes with multiple aoes without having to constantly worry about the 4k damage every 2 seconds.

the aoe suggestion is actually from wow a while back they rearranged the aoe skills so that people couldnt lure up excessively large groups of mobs and take them all down in 3-4 aoes im talking like 80+ mobs thats why they put a cap on the amount of damage that could be done in total by the aoe split by the number of mobs that were present. with rose the number would have to be lower than that due to the limited number of mobs u can lure or number of people in pvp. but if you think of it from a logical standpoint you stand in the middle of 2 people hold out an open hand and spin you might hit them equally as hard... now line up 6 people and do the same the last few people you slap wont get hit as hard if at all. its not a matter of nerfing the aoe classes but more an adjustment to make them not able to take down large groups of players or mobs as easily. (as much as it would suck to farm its not right that certain classes can do better on their own than those that have to use a party).


Well technically you can still miss, just the missed attack does half damage. But you are right that it allows high AP classes like champs to be able to get away with lower accuracy to keep stacking AP. Not that their accuracy is low though.... Swords have a ton. That might not be as much a problem if they didn't take so long to die though (look at mages). I just don't want to decrease their current offensive abilities. I actually think if they were easier to kill, they would need to be this threatening in terms of damage.

Never played WoW so I didn't know that this has happened in the past. I know it makes sense logically and when I first started I wondered why it wasn't this way (Rose was my first mmo). The PvM people already complain that every update screws them over (debatable). I am not against the idea and it might help the disparity between aoe classes and non-aoe classes in farming, but I know most people wouldn't take to it.
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#16 DarkGero

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 07:17 AM

Never played WoW so I didn't know that this has happened in the past. I know it makes sense logically and when I first started I wondered why it wasn't this way (Rose was my first mmo). The PvM people already complain that every update screws them over (debatable). I am not against the idea and it might help the disparity between aoe classes and non-aoe classes in farming, but I know most people wouldn't take to it.


oh it would takje some adjusting and no matter what you do nerf a class buff the other classes there will always be people that will complain its just down to making sure that the game is balanced in as many aspects as possible and right now its far from it with champs being on top for most categories with a few exceptional players in the other classes.

pve'ers wil always find something to complain about, but to be honest nerfing at least the champ aoes will generate a more round out community imo as you reintroduce the need to have lurers and tanks and such people will start playing their original characters more over the champ that they leveled just to farm solo
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#17 BrownBear

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 07:22 AM

oh it would takje some adjusting and no matter what you do nerf a class buff the other classes there will always be people that will complain its just down to making sure that the game is balanced in as many aspects as possible and right now its far from it with champs being on top for most categories with a few exceptional players in the other classes.

pve'ers wil always find something to complain about, but to be honest nerfing at least the champ aoes will generate a more round out community imo as you reintroduce the need to have lurers and tanks and such people will start playing their original characters more over the champ that they leveled just to farm solo


I think I see more champs than raiders nowadays. Says a lot given this servers history with raiders.

Edited by BrownBear, 14 November 2010 - 07:22 AM.

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#18 Silwok

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 07:51 AM

I think I see more champs than raiders nowadays. Says a lot given this servers history with raiders.

Yeah I noticed a big rise in champs and a big decrease in mages http://forums.warppo...tyle_emoticons/default/happy.gif
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#19 Span

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 08:38 AM

If the case is champions get to run away then in my opinion , the hp passives should be moved to knight skill tab since knights r made to be meat-shields so they should tank better then anyone else ...

I had to admit that champions are really overpowered , since i left my champion and created a crossbow knight , i noticed why champions are so overpowered , mages and champions are offensive classes , its unfair that champions could tank almost like a knight and mages be killed like that .
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#20 BrownBear

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 08:42 AM

If the case is champions get to run away then in my opinion , the hp passives should be moved to knight skill tab since knights r made to be meat-shields so they should tank better then anyone else ...

I had to admit that champions are really overpowered , since i left my champion and created a crossbow knight , i noticed why champions are so overpowered , mages and champions are offensive classes , its unfair that champions could tank almost like a knight and mages be killed like that .


Oh...my...god....

The end is near isn't it?
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#21 Span

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 09:03 AM

Oh...my...god....

The end is near isn't it?


End of what?
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#22 PickUp

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 03:00 PM

End of what?

It's the end of the candy days.



An "Intelligent" Discussion about Champs

Nurf champs! Nurf them to oblivion! Nurf Span too!


Oh you said intelligent?!




How about making some of the champ skills cost HP instead of MP? Just an idea of me which I wanted to throw in. Nothin' really important.
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#23 Viceking

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 03:03 PM

End of what?


:unsure:
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#24 PickUp

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 03:04 PM

:unsure:


Another well thought out comment by Viceking. It adds a lot to the discussion. Very well said!
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#25 CaNehDa

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 11:06 PM

TAKE AWAY MUTE ON CHAMPS! ._.

no no no, you guys got it all wrong - do not nerf champs...



make the other classes stronger-

give hawkers (scouts and raiders) faster m-speed passives (so they are faster then a champ)

clerics need an m-speed passive... badly.


their def is fine, their ap is fine. however this is true they shouldn't be "the fastest class"

however my buddy spent a whole lot of zullie and reall life money making an mspeed champ - this would make me sad; very sad - if his mspeed got nurfed.


srrsly, champs should NOT have mute. The skill shouldn't be "nurfed" it should just be removed from that class - clerics and mages are the only class's that should have mute.

Edited by CaNehDa, 14 November 2010 - 11:15 PM.

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