317 replies to this topic

[HellGuardian]

Just adding my thoughts quickly: champs were nerfed badly not so long ago. People riot (champs i imagine). Champs are now overpowered. People riot (not champs i imagine).
Well seriously im tired of theses balance discussions. The end is always the same. I keep disliking one char or two i used to love. I love my champ now. For PVM since i dont PVP. But the problem is always teh same isnt it: PVP. You guys will never be happy an the devs will never get the right build. Some classes will always be dominant.
I propose we take turns: on a, lets say, trimester basis:
1st trimester. Champs own
2nd trimester. Champs go tothe closet. Raiders own.
3rd trimester. Raiders get a nap. Mages own.
4th trimester. Mages loose ...their magic. Bourgs own.
Repeat
Hummm i sense i forgot some class there ... Bah too bad a year as only 4 trimesters

Do you realize how BIAS you are? That is like a total jokes ... You claim you like champs but dont tell me you didnt notice how ridiculous champs are for the moment? Even you dont PvP, have you not been in PvP zone like ruins to farm??? ... Anyway and everyone who owns a champ know it is OP in so many ways, which no one can deny it. Not just PvP but in the whole class itself.

[Phish]

Just adding my thoughts quickly: champs were nerfed badly not so long ago. People riot (champs i imagine). Champs are now overpowered. People riot (not champs i imagine).
Well seriously im tired of theses balance discussions. The end is always the same. I keep disliking one char or two i used to love. I love my champ now. For PVM since i dont PVP. But the problem is always teh same isnt it: PVP. You guys will never be happy an the devs will never get the right build. Some classes will always be dominant.
I propose we take turns: on a, lets say, trimester basis:
1st trimester. Champs own
2nd trimester. Champs go tothe closet. Raiders own.
3rd trimester. Raiders get a nap. Mages own.
4th trimester. Mages loose ...their magic. Bourgs own.
Repeat
Hummm i sense i forgot some class there ... Bah too bad a year as only 4 trimesters

Champs are overpowered in pvm more so than pvp in my opinion. They have pretty much everything they need.


High attack power plus multiple aoes for killing many monsters at once easily.
High defense/hp so they cn take a beating while killing, there low magic defense is hardly a factor in most places because there are hardly any magic attacking enemies.
High mspeed helps them get to enemies faster, combined with there survivability they can lure and kill for a party extremely easily and efficiently.

Multiple stuns and status effects to make it relatively easy to solo bosses.


Infinite Mp with the passive so they never need to use mp food. They can do fine without bonfires because regular food will suffice (if you even need it....).



And yes, one of my main characters is a champ so all the people complaining aren't actually rioting; it's called being unbiased.

[DestinyDeoxys]

Change Spear Mastery 20% m-speed to 20% a-speed.
Reduce Quick Step from 25% to 20% m-speed.
Leave Charge as it is.
Put back weapon-skill restriction, and make Voltage Crash become an AOE.
Reduce Defense Training from 20% to 10% defense.
Don't think GM will do this though (ppl spend money on their 15 swords), who would want to suppress their customers over and over? But this is how we do if we want a balanced game.

Sword champ and Spear champ are designed for PvM, but ppl use them to PvP, Axe champ should be the one excel at PvP here, this game is so messed up.

[Soda]

Change Spear Mastery 20% m-speed to 20% a-speed.
Reduce Quick Step from 25% to 20% m-speed.
Leave Charge as it is.
Put back weapon-skill restriction, and make Voltage Crash become an AOE.
Reduce Defense Training from 20% to 10% defense.
Don't think GM will do this though (ppl spend money on their 15 swords), who would want to suppress their customers over and over? But this is how we do if we want a balanced game.

Sword champ and Spear champ are designed for PvM, but ppl use them to PvP, Axe champ should be the one excel at PvP here, this game is so messed up.

If i can remember it correctly, Spear Mastery is the one in Soldier skill tree right? if so. I dont think it should be change, it will make knights slow as a turtle again (since champs arent the only one whos gonna be affected if they change it)

Edited by Soda, 12 December 2010 - 04:07 AM.

[Pink]

If i can remember it correctly, Spear Mastery is the one in Soldier skill tree right? if so. I dont think it should be change, it will make knights slow as a turtle again (since champs arent the only one whos gonna be affected if they change it)

No other class has a % m-speed passive other than soldiers.

[Metaleux]

No other class has a % m-speed passive other than soldiers.

Knights can still put SP in the 2-hand tree.

[ChickenBucket]

Knights can still put SP in the 2-hand tree.

only crossbow knights can

[LordArthas]

Do you realize how BIAS you are? That is like a total jokes ... You claim you like champs but dont tell me you didnt notice how ridiculous champs are for the moment? Even you dont PvP, have you not been in PvP zone like ruins to farm??? ... Anyway and everyone who owns a champ know it is OP in so many ways, which no one can deny it. Not just PvP but in the whole class itself.

First of all you missed the sacarstic points in my thread but thats of no importance. Second (and to be clear) i have chars from every jobs available in game (my bad i deleted my raider... so "almost" every job). So i perfectly can recognize who is better and who is weaker.
My point is (and now im speaking seriously) since Gravity is in charge of the game we got balancing updates on a regular basis. Were champs always OP? Far from it as you well know. Not that long ago mages were probably the best class, weren´t they? Not so good anymore ... Scouts were the worse for years, then got pretty cool at a time. The way dodge works now, they got nerfed again. We could be here all day telling who was good at a given time. The conclusion will always be the same: there's no such thing as BALANCE in Rose period. So instead of keeping nerfing class after class because one gets always better after each update they make, why not boosting the weakest ones and, for once, leaving the good ones untouched? You know what? I would start by making support clerics better buffers depending on the int they have. Oh wait we did were that way but they decided to balance the game.
Getting my point?
Anyway and to end this: champs are fun to play like they werent for years (any champ that was here when we got Eldeon knows what im talking about). So instead of making them weak as kittens again, lets start to analyze every other job one by one and see what they lack. Just my biased opinion. Cheers

[xHydra]

Change Spear Mastery 20% m-speed to 20% a-speed.
Reduce Quick Step from 25% to 20% m-speed.
Leave Charge as it is.
Put back weapon-skill restriction, and make Voltage Crash become an AOE.
Reduce Defense Training from 20% to 10% defense.
Don't think GM will do this though (ppl spend money on their 15 swords), who would want to suppress their customers over and over? But this is how we do if we want a balanced game.

Sword champ and Spear champ are designed for PvM, but ppl use them to PvP, Axe champ should be the one excel at PvP here, this game is so messed up.

They're still giving champs too much mspd with quickstep, if they're going to keep quickstep that much the other classes should get a passive aswell, as heavy armor+ heavy weapon shouldn't= Fast Soldier, all the other classes are wearing much lighter gear.

[DestinyDeoxys]

If i can remember it correctly, Spear Mastery is the one in Soldier skill tree right? if so. I dont think it should be change, it will make knights slow as a turtle again (since champs arent the only one whos gonna be affected if they change it)

Actually, I'm reducing m-speed on knight on purpose, you see today everyone is an Xbow knight, I don't have a knight yet, but I remember they did have some nice accuracy passive? I was playing my scout at 2.5K m-speed and 180% a-speed, pretty much maxed on this field, and when I face some food Xbow knight, they did some heavy damage on my scout, Ranged Stun, then m-speed down shot (ok this m-speed down debuff is ridiculous, it's ok I pushed camouflage button and wipe it out), then here comes another taunt shot, and my scout de-stealth itself. I couldn't even have a chance to run. Who is the ranged character here?
I mean Xbow knight is not overpower, but if you compare it to a scout, an Xbow knight is well above a scout.

I'm ok if one handed weapon knight get extra m-speed passive, but if a ranged Xbow knight can chase my full speed scout like that, it's not ok lol.

Edit: Actually, I don't want to mess with the defense training since it affects knights, let's just cancel the defense passive on champion instead

Edited by DestinyDeoxys, 12 December 2010 - 08:44 AM.

[Soda]

Actually, I'm reducing m-speed on knight on purpose, you see today everyone is an Xbow knight, I don't have a knight yet, but I remember they did have some nice accuracy passive? I was playing my scout at 2.5K m-speed and 180% a-speed, pretty much maxed on this field, and when I face some food Xbow knight, they did some heavy damage on my scout, Ranged Stun, then m-speed down shot (ok this m-speed down debuff is ridiculous, it's ok I pushed camouflage button and wipe it out), then here comes another taunt shot, and my scout de-stealth itself. I couldn't even have a chance to run. Who is the ranged character here?
I mean Xbow knight is not overpower, but if you compare it to a scout, an Xbow knight is well above a scout.

I'm ok if one handed weapon knight get extra m-speed passive, but if a ranged Xbow knight can chase my full speed scout like that, it's not ok lol.

Edit: Actually, I don't want to mess with the defense training since it affects knights, let's just cancel the defense passive on champion instead

... or u could stun them, camo, then run..
i notice u just keep running on uw..

[DestinyDeoxys]

I only got (7) gears and a (10) bow, on the field of UW, it's all about champs champs champs if not then bourgs, Xbow knights lol...so basically no target for me, may be a few raiders or mages that I can take. If I don't use m-speed build, I will just get killed by champs over and over then rebuff...it's so annoying that everyone has a ranged stun...makes scout kinda pointless...

In other words, I can only avoid getting killed in UW, and I cannot get some kills in UW lol

Let's see if there is anything done to the champ class next week, if nothing is done about it, we rage quit ok? xD

Edited by DestinyDeoxys, 12 December 2010 - 12:08 PM.

[Phish]

Change Spear Mastery 20% m-speed to 20% a-speed.
Reduce Quick Step from 25% to 20% m-speed.
Leave Charge as it is.
Put back weapon-skill restriction, and make Voltage Crash become an AOE.
Reduce Defense Training from 20% to 10% defense.
Don't think GM will do this though (ppl spend money on their 15 swords), who would want to suppress their customers over and over? But this is how we do if we want a balanced game.

Sword champ and Spear champ are designed for PvM, but ppl use them to PvP, Axe champ should be the one excel at PvP here, this game is so messed up.

I think quick step is more to blame for the high mspeed rather than the spear passive. 4 points for 25% instead of 9 points for 20% (27 points for 20% for a knight since they need to get the 2 handed passive first)

Charge is pretty useless now, even if champs have their mspeed lowered. However somone suggested making it a new buff additional mspeed so it doesn't override your previous one I think it would work well. Of course it would have to be given a cooldown (20 seconds?) so it won't be spammable. This is of course if champs have their mspeed lowered drastically.

I don't see why only axe's should be suitable for pvp. Just because they were better than spear/sword in the past doesn't mean thats how it should be. Although axes are a bit undesireable now because acc and aspeed/mspeed are alot more appealing than crit.



You also mentioned Crossbow knights from being overpowered which I can agree with you somewhat. They pretty much dominate other ranged classes because of their survivabilty and big status effect skills. It's especially awkward that they have less skill points than mace knights which allows them to get more passives and be quicker than their close ranged counterparts. Which is ironic because a non ranged class needs more mpseed to get to their opponents than a ranged one.

Edited by Phish, 12 December 2010 - 12:10 PM.

[BrownBear]

only crossbow knights can

Melee can too, its just harder.

Actually, I'm reducing m-speed on knight on purpose, you see today everyone is an Xbow knight, I don't have a knight yet, but I remember they did have some nice accuracy passive? I was playing my scout at 2.5K m-speed and 180% a-speed, pretty much maxed on this field, and when I face some food Xbow knight, they did some heavy damage on my scout, Ranged Stun, then m-speed down shot (ok this m-speed down debuff is ridiculous, it's ok I pushed camouflage button and wipe it out), then here comes another taunt shot, and my scout de-stealth itself. I couldn't even have a chance to run. Who is the ranged character here?
I mean Xbow knight is not overpower, but if you compare it to a scout, an Xbow knight is well above a scout.

I'm ok if one handed weapon knight get extra m-speed passive, but if a ranged Xbow knight can chase my full speed scout like that, it's not ok lol.

Edit: Actually, I don't want to mess with the defense training since it affects knights, let's just cancel the defense passive on champion instead

She is right. Aside from the damage at least. xD

First of all you missed the sacarstic points in my thread but thats of no importance. Second (and to be clear) i have chars from every jobs available in game (my bad i deleted my raider... so "almost" every job). So i perfectly can recognize who is better and who is weaker.
My point is (and now im speaking seriously) since Gravity is in charge of the game we got balancing updates on a regular basis. Were champs always OP? Far from it as you well know. Not that long ago mages were probably the best class, weren´t they? Not so good anymore ... Scouts were the worse for years, then got pretty cool at a time. The way dodge works now, they got nerfed again. We could be here all day telling who was good at a given time. The conclusion will always be the same: there's no such thing as BALANCE in Rose period. So instead of keeping nerfing class after class because one gets always better after each update they make, why not boosting the weakest ones and, for once, leaving the good ones untouched? You know what? I would start by making support clerics better buffers depending on the int they have. Oh wait we did were that way but they decided to balance the game.
Getting my point?
Anyway and to end this: champs are fun to play like they werent for years (any champ that was here when we got Eldeon knows what im talking about). So instead of making them weak as kittens again, lets start to analyze every other job one by one and see what they lack. Just my biased opinion. Cheers

I see, so we need to give everyone extreme movement speed passives just to make champs "slow" again. And give everyone a defense boost too just so champs don't tank as well, comparatively. Messing with 7 skills trees sure beats messing with 1 skill tree.

Edited by BrownBear, 12 December 2010 - 08:08 PM.

[Pink]

Knights can still put SP in the 2-hand tree.

>No other class besides soldiers.
>soldiers.

[poopiehead]

>No other class besides soldiers.
>soldiers.

souja boi told them

Edited by poopiehead, 12 December 2010 - 10:37 PM.

[Pink]

souja boi told them

WHY DO YOU CHANGE YOUR SIG SO MUCH.

[poopiehead]

WHY DO YOU CHANGE YOUR SIG SO MUCH.

i get tired of them like my friends.

good bye

[Silwok]

i get tired of them like my friends.

good bye

[Phish]

Is that you Silwok?

[Silwok]

Is that you Silwok?

LOL no it isn't Phish lmao, just a randomer on youtube haha

[jagz]

I dont think I've chimed in yet. I'll put it simply.

I can go gear Speared in less than an hour. Then proceed to beat every other class in Rose. (aside from maybe the top 2 raiders and top 2 mages)

Gee thats one difficult class to play

[jagz]

It's also funny how little skill is required as even if I'm alone they still run up and just spin over and over till I die

Aswell as charge is display glitchy, as I was yelling at some for speed glitching (IE sit/tab/run) but no, they were not.. They were just using charge. They can pretty much kill you before you even see them near you. Awesome.

Lets see.
Champs have...

More AP
More Aspeed
More Mspeed
More HP
More Defense
A mute

Ok, then, they can... Slow your attack speed. Lower your defense. Lower your Movement speed... Lmao.


You know a bourg has no de-buff except for the worst Mspeed-down in game.

[Soda]

It's also funny how little skill is required as even if I'm alone they still run up and just spin over and over till I die

Aswell as charge is display glitchy, as I was yelling at some for speed glitching (IE sit/tab/run) but no, they were not.. They were just using charge. They can pretty much kill you before you even see them near you. Awesome.

Lets see.
Champs have...

More AP
More Aspeed
More Mspeed
More HP
More Defense
A mute

Ok, then, they can... Slow your attack speed. Lower your defense. Lower your Movement speed... Lmao.


You know a bourg has no de-buff except for the worst Mspeed-down in game.

i can relate... +1

[Phish]

It's also funny how little skill is required as even if I'm alone they still run up and just spin over and over till I die

Aswell as charge is display glitchy, as I was yelling at some for speed glitching (IE sit/tab/run) but no, they were not.. They were just using charge. They can pretty much kill you before you even see them near you. Awesome.

Lets see.
Champs have...

More AP
More Aspeed
More Mspeed
More HP
More Defense
A mute

Ok, then, they can... Slow your attack speed. Lower your defense. Lower your Movement speed... Lmao.


You know a bourg has no de-buff except for the worst Mspeed-down in game.

Don't forget lower your attack power and dodge too



I think taking on two champs is the hardest thing to do. Obviously being outnumbered is a disadvantage but other classes can be somewhat manageabl, but no class can tank 2 champs and all of their status effects while still being to do enough damage kill them. But I guess your best would be go figure, a champ.

Edited by Phish, 14 December 2010 - 02:21 PM.