135 replies to this topic

[iMatt]

Uhm yea Mage would also be the class of choice against xbows for me, ahm. You have to keep one thing in mind: Rose PvP is not balanced in order to 1on1 - it is focused on balanced Game Arena Games.

 

The problem is that the change from last week was not something, that I for example was aware of, it got discussed somewhere but I guess no one realised the effect on PvP damage.

 

Now I ask you, do you have any ideas how it could be changed? A clanmate of mine had the idea to reduce the PvP/PvM Resistances of all Armors/items in general - but those kind of nerfs I am usually no fan of. So - I am open for helpful ideas! =)

 

Edit: Some poeple think that one class should be able to defeat all other classes, but for example my raider will never ever beat a knight. Am I unhappy about it? Sure - Does this mean I quit my class? Hell, no!

Edited by iMatt, 07 November 2014 - 11:24 AM.

[zonyzony]

Uhm yea Mage would also be the class of choice against xbows for me, ahm. You have to keep one thing in mind: Rose PvP is not balanced in order to 1on1 - it is focused on balanced Game Arena Games.

 

The problem is that the change from last week was not something, that I for example was aware of, it got discussed somewhere but I guess no one realised the effect on PvP damage.

 

Now I ask you, do you have any ideas how it could be changed? A clanmate of mine had the idea to reduce the PvP/PvM Resistances of all Armors/items in general - but those kind of nerfs I am usually no fan of. So - I am open for helpful ideas! =)

 

Edit: Some poeple think that one class should be able to defeat all other classes, but for example my raider will never ever beat a knight. Am I unhappy about it? Sure - Does this mean I quit my class? Hell, no!

 

Of course there is no class that can defeat every class but I was pointing out that with the recent changes there has been a twist of fate. Champs can take down xbow scout before as pointed out by mongetet but right now xbow scouts seems to defeat all other classes, if he is wearing the right gear. Luminous, chiv, def sets etc and thats what i have been stating as there should be no class to beat all class.

 

Like i said, one shouldnt pvp xbowscouts or knights because they made them that way as it is also their purpose in war to be a tank on the other hand if you were to put it in pvp perspective they became op. Pvp them if they got reworked as it is not as it was before

 

 

 

As for ideas, the only problems that greatly benefited from these changes are the ones with shields and books. Maybe put another gem in 2 handed weapons? Other is to rework xbowscouts and especially knights since they are broken. Maybe a skill or an aura that if a knight is like surrounded by more people the higher his def gets. one person-bonus 500 def, two persons 1000 def, etc. Just an idea and as for the formula like i said, there are no problems with it. Just take into consideration the already tanky classes because the benefits is like multiplied exponentially for them. I know knights are tanky but we were killin a knight with 7 or more people and we cant just take it down. I dont know if he is using im pots to heal but really? tank 7 people with stat buffs. Something is wrong with these tank classes

Edited by zonyzony, 07 November 2014 - 11:37 AM.

[iMatt]

I like you zony

 

What I wanted to say, it was not intended to have sutch a big impact, and I think block in general got out of control, but that s a personal opinion.

Edited by iMatt, 07 November 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[jerremy]

Well, if you've got any concerns about knights, just send me a pm or something. The knight rep title isn't just for show.

I've been meaning to test the change to the damage formula, but I haven't been on this week as of yet, so I'll get to that later.

Edited by jerremy, 07 November 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[mongetet]

Of course there is no class that can defeat every class but I was pointing out that with the recent changes there has been a twist of fate. Champs can take down xbow scout before as pointed out by mongetet but right now xbow scouts seems to defeat all other classes, if he is wearing the right gear. Luminous, chiv, def sets etc and thats what i have been stating as there should be no class to beat all class.

 

Like i said, one shouldnt pvp xbowscouts or knights because they made them that way as it is also their purpose in war to be a tank on the other hand if you were to put it in pvp perspective they became op. Pvp them if they got reworked as it is not as it was before

 

 

 

As for ideas, the only problems that greatly benefited from these changes are the ones with shields and books. Maybe put another gem in 2 handed weapons? Other is to rework xbowscouts and especially knights since they are broken. Maybe a skill or an aura that if a knight is like surrounded by more people the higher his def gets. one person-bonus 500 def, two persons 1000 def, etc. Just an idea and as for the formula like i said, there are no problems with it. Just take into consideration the already tanky classes because the benefits is like multiplied exponentially for them. I know knights are tanky but we were killin a knight with 7 or more people and we cant just take it down. I dont know if he is using im pots to heal but really? tank 7 people with stat buffs. Something is wrong with these tank classes

 

Wow I like that idea that skill that makes your def go up. Tank classes can be viable for pvp or wars now. Their defences adjust to how many people they are. They can still pvp and war at same time. Thumbs up for this
 

[bl0b]

increase the skill power on skills that were affected most by the undocumented damage nerf, like impact arrow.

[jerremy]

increase the skill power on skills that were affected most by the undocumented damage nerf, like impact arrow.

More than anything, impact needs a shorter cast animation. That really long animation that gets stuck more than 30% of the time is just too big of a drawback, even if you boost the skillpower to an even greater value than it already has.

[LexLoyalty]

increase pvp demage on weapons by 15%

[iMatt]

More than anything, impact needs a shorter cast animation. That really long animation that gets stuck more than 30% of the time is just too big of a drawback, even if you boost the skillpower to an even greater value than it already has.

 

guranteed crit skills have usually a longer animation - i recommend less spamming on that skill to prevent any stucks

[jerremy]

guranteed crit skills have usually a longer animation - i recommend less spamming on that skill to prevent any stucks

True, but the longer animation is ways longer than every other bowscout animation and I feel that just makes it not worth its value (barring double/triple, but there's a reason no one uses them and that's the horrid cast time). I'd rather have reliable quick skills than that gimmicky burst.

Edited by jerremy, 07 November 2014 - 04:04 PM.

[iMatt]

True, but the longer animation is ways longer than every other bowscout animation and I feel that just makes it not worth its value (barring double/triple, but there's a reason no one uses them and that's the horrid cast time). I'd rather have reliable quick skills than that gimmicky burst.

 

really? you forgot about triple arrow, did you? if you think impact is a pain use that skill. if you want reliable skills play xbow

[bl0b]

Have you ever tried using arrow shower? 50% of the time you stop attacking after you use it cuz it's slow extreme. 

 

[jerremy]

Actually I didn't forget, I even mentioned it between the parentheses.

And I do play xbow, xbow knight lol. Don't need another crossbow character, the playstyle is ways too similar for it to be really interesting~

Well it's just what I think about impact as a skill, you don't have to agree with it.

[iMatt]

who would skill arrowshower? to weak to be considered as aoe

[Leeny]

All I have to say is....my enargite hits more than malachite in FV now. thatsss itttt

[Phish]

My 2 cents on the subject.

 

 

1. Jerremy established it on the first page. Damage is weaker in pvp because before the patch, pvp/pvm resistance/offense did not effect crit and additional damage, but now they do. Since everyone in pvp generally uses honor sets, that means the damage from crits and additional damage is 30% less than before. However, when gear with high pvm offense, overall damage is actually increased. 

 

Sadly, the Citrine is a pretty poor gem for pvp as a result. Malachite and Enargite are the way to go. 

 

2. People should stop using 1v1 pvps with food as the standard for PvP in Rose. It's why I stopped doing 1v'1's years ago, because periods where overall damage gets lowered people still continue to want to fight with food and fights don't even end, it also heavily favors certain classes over others, Game Arena Regulations of only Red/Blue pots are more balanced for all classes, and fights will actually end. You can't regulate food in full out TG wars but honestly, you can't regulate boosters, aruas, and jellies either yet they aren't used as the standard.

 

3. If the situation truly is a problem (I am neutral on the subject, but it does make pvp/pvm modifiers really necessary), then perhaps the defensive values could be reduced slightly. For example, Honor Gear can be reduced to 8% per piece, Reinforced can be reduced to 4%, and Exalted to 5-6%. The thing is, it would make sense to reduce the Valor gear proportionately, and it would have been good timing if it was done before the monster offense increase.

 

 

increase pvp demage on weapons by 15%

 

This is actually a good idea too, probably even simpler than changing armor.

 

Honor weapons are awful right now and I've been wanting to suggest changes to buff them, but more difficult refining and untradeable gear made me not want to bother. If anything, Epics/Exalted can be increased to 15% for pvp, could increase crafted ones a little too, and honor weapons should be increased to, though I'd rather see a change to their bold stats as well, and possibly not make them all the same as far as pvp offense/defense goes.

Edited by Phish, 07 November 2014 - 05:30 PM.

[jerremy]

 It's why I stopped doing 1v'1's years ago.

Still wins 1v1 tournament. What a beast.

 

Well, got not much more to say, you've explained it pretty well. Although you can probably leave reinforced as it is without changing the %, it's already highly unfavored compared to honor/valor, especially with the new gems. 

[Phish]

lol, that tournament was an exception.

 

 

And honestly it should just be the pvp offense on weapons thats changed. Since offense to defense cancel eachother out 1:1, It's simpler and cleaner to do. 

[jerremy]

True enough.

Oh, while at it, crafted (hardened etc.) weapons should be given a boost to 10% if epics/exalteds go to 15%. 

Scratch that, I'm blind and didn't see you already mentioned them. Guess I should proofread more often.

Edited by jerremy, 07 November 2014 - 05:50 PM.

[ChampPower]

In general, scout is not weak. Speaking from someone, who was being attacked by scout in war, the damage I received from being hit by the scout is not weak nor strong. What I hate the most is not the damage. What I hate the most is it's stun. When I get hit from the scout, my character is unable to move for about 1 second (without having the stun status). The duration is not long, but the attack speed of the scout is more than enough to cover the short duration. If I was attacked by 2 scouts, I can forget about moving, all I can do is waiting to die, regardless of being champ or cleric. The situation will not change even if I max out sense or dodge (I tried both). I saw the situation repeated over and over again in many CD that I had joined. In fact, I saw the entires team was hold up by just 2 scouts. They dealed massive damage, and you guy complained about damage output being reduced. What I am real want is seeing the DEV Team to remove or fix the stun animation when we are being hit by the scout. Seriously, it is annoying and frustration when there is nothing we can do but waiting to die.

Edited by ChampPower, 07 November 2014 - 09:08 PM.

[bl0b]

who would skill arrowshower? to weak to be considered as aoe

You won't believe this, but I actually do use Arrow Shower in PvM. Yes, it's weak but that doesn't change the fact that the animation is so slow that it reduces your attack speed after to like -100% which just makes you stop attacking all together.

 

In general, scout is not weak. Speaking from someone, who was being attacked by scout in war, the damage I received from being hit by the scout is not weak nor strong. What I hate the most is not the damage. What I hate the most is it's stun. When I get hit from the scout, my character is unable to move for about 1 second (without having the stun status). The duration is not long, but the attack speed of the scout is more than enough to cover the short duration. If I was attacked by 2 scouts, I can forget about moving, all I can do is waiting to die, regardless of being champ or cleric. The situation will not change even if I max out sense or dodge (I tried both). I saw the situation repeated over and over again in many CD that I had joined. In fact, I saw the entires team was hold up by just 2 scouts. They dealed massive damage, and you guy complained about damage output being reduced. What I am real want is seeing the DEV Team to remove or fix the stun animation when we are being hit by the scout. Seriously, it is annoying and frustration when there is nothing we can do but waiting to die.

From your point of view scouts are not weak, that may be true, but they are definitely weaker then what they were before the previous patch, if you played scout (maybe you did), you'de know how big of a deal this is, might be the same for some other classes, but since I don't play other classes, I tend to not comment on them. Also, here you're talking about the  "attack speed of the scout is more than enough to cover the short duration", what attack speed? as a bow scout, you rely minimal on attack speed if at all as a source of damage, if you're talking about Crossbow scouts, maybe, since they have pierce defence passives. You also say if you were attacked by two scouts all you can do is wait to die. Now think if it was two champs, two gun bourgs/Artis, two raiders, two of any class, you think you'll die any slower? in any case you'll probably die faster, being attacked by more then one plaer is supposed to mean death, for most classes anyways, unless you have a good cleric of course. As for cleric, a honor geared cleric can tank way more then two scouts, try maybe 4-5. I've seen a few clerics that just walk away from my damage like it's nothing. And yes, one last thing, I am complaining about the damage output being reduced

Edited by bl0b, 07 November 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[ChampPower]

From your point of view scouts are not weak, that may be true, but they are definitely weaker then what they were before the previous patch, if you played scout (maybe you did), you'de know how big of a deal this is, might be the same for some other classes, but since I don't play other classes, I tend to not comment on them. Also, here you're talking about the "attack speed of the scout is more than enough to cover the short duration", what attack speed? as a bow scout, you rely minimal on attack speed if at all as a source of damage, if you're talking about Crossbow scouts, maybe, since they have pierce defence passives. You also say if you were attacked by two scouts all you can do is wait to die. Now think if it was two champs, two gun bourgs/Artis, two raiders, two of any class, you think you'll die any slower? in any case you'll probably die faster, being attacked by more then one plaer is supposed to mean death, for most classes anyways, unless you have a good cleric of course. As for cleric, a honor geared cleric can tank way more then two scouts, try maybe 4-5. I've seen a few clerics that just walk away from my damage like it's nothing. And yes, one last thing, I am complaining about the damage output being reduced

True, you should die if you are being attacked by 2 of any class, but you can run or at least deal some damage to them. The problem with being attacked by 2 scouts is that you will be stunned and locked to the ground, without the need of being hit by the stun skills. I cannot even run away, and my skills do not work. The cleric may have some tank ability against 2 scouts, but it is only prolonging the unavoidable death because the cleric cannot skill or heal while being attacked by the scouts. That is why I suggest the DEV Team to removed the stun animation when being hit by the (normal attacks of the) scout. We should only being stunned by being hit by the stun skills.

[bl0b]

True, you should die if you are being attacked by 2 of any class, but you can run or at least deal some damage to them. The problem with being attacked by 2 scouts is that you will be stunned and locked to the ground, without the need of being hit by the stun skills. I cannot even run away, and my skills do not work. The cleric may have some tank ability against 2 scouts, but it is only prolonging the unavoidable death because the cleric cannot skill or heal while being attacked by the scouts. That is why I suggest the DEV Team to removed the stun animation when being hit by the (normal attacks of the) scout. We should only being stunned by being hit by the stun skills.

That's probably the crits, they mildly stun you, make you flinch. And probably worse when being attacked by two katar raiders, stun, sleep, stun ,sleep, crit crit crit crit crit crit....

[ChampPower]

That's probably the crits, they mildly stun you, make you flinch. And probably worse when being attacked by two katar raiders, stun, sleep, stun ,sleep, crit crit crit crit crit crit....

Exactly. That is why I was/am supporting the DEV team to reduce the damage output of the scout and raider. The scout and raider were tooooooooooo powerful. We need to give every classes a fair change in war. But what I want more than reducing the damage output of the raider and scout is fixing the stun animation. Give other classes an equal change in war, please.

[Feuer]

Yea but that is right now they are so tanky but before I can kill them. Im an axe with 30 ap sen 20 set and cant kill it. If an axe champ cant kill it what other classes can? I can understand the knights coz they have low ap, but also xbow scout now?

 

Mage for one will utterly wreck any knight especially if it's a CC mage.