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[Classic] PvP Event Insight 2015! (ROCS formatting help)


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#26 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:12 PM

:heh:

 

I agree with all of the above. Tiers sound nice but you'd have to check for people smurfing. Captains is an awesome idea and I'd like to see varied teams like that.

 

Would be fun if you earned points by competing which you could then cash in for prizes, instead of just a 1st 2nd 3rd everyone else too -_- for recognition type deal.

 

Posbugging is possible with most classes yeah, but with mags you can do it without any visual cues. Any small measure of prevention is better than none. Most people know why I kept spamming about mags specifically anyway teehee.


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#27 zerowon

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:19 PM

perhaps campitor can whip up a script not allowing a player to enter the field if he has mags in there inventory?


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#28 Themes

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:26 PM

I think if you're going to split it up into tiers prizes shouldnt be as much of a big deal. You can award better prizes for the top tier encouraging more people to participate and just more prizes for the other tier, rewarding people for participating. Any team that dominates the lower tier can be "encouraged" to move on up and the winner/s can get something nice and be encouraged to step up to the other tier.

 

But as I mentioned earlier, would you employ a different ruleset as far as gear goes? What happens if you've got a solid team from another server coming to join us here and participate in the serious stuff (where you may be able to use a god or two and some MVP/mini cards) but dont have the items to challenge some of the other teams?

 

For now though I think keeping it small and simple is the right way to go, one tier with everyone in it. If there's obvious problems and people are not having any fun after the first event the next months event could be some trials for top tier, limited mvp/mini/gods.


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#29 Xellie

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:28 PM

Rather than assigning points per captain, do it per player. After all that's how team based rankings work in other games.

Yes it allows for a hard carry, but some times people need that to gain confidence.


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#30 Easly

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:51 PM

Whats stopping people from cheating?


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#31 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 12:54 PM

I'll talk to xellie tonight and write up a "rough draft" aka getting thoughts together for us all to discuss and rip apart. Hopefully talk to camp and Oda ASAP to make sure 100% everything is possible.

For things like pos lag or other cheats/bug.... I wouldn't let it occupy too much of your time. Not to throw myself under the bus, but none of tht is new to me and I am fully confident in my ability to catch any form of cheating. Again 0 torlorence. The previous event we did had no cheating and the participants all had fun with it. It was really good an only 1 mistake was made which will not happen again.

I'll talk with some people and crack open a fresh monster and get to work tonight ^_^

Edit for Easly. First you should do it, it would be like old Loki pvp. Second, having no consumables makes ap a non factor. Having people aware of and knowing fully how ndly/wpe and all the other cheats work will allow us to make easy as he'll calls to dq people. Pos bug will be case to case as it just happens some times. For the record the best pos bugging doesn't require mags, can do it in both forward and reverse.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 15 January 2015 - 12:58 PM.

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#32 Xellie

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:07 PM

Whats stopping people from cheating?

 

I dare them to cheat whilst I'm manning the camera. :p_idea:


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#33 Oda

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:14 PM

I'll be happy to help as with the event from last year. It might not hurt to have a "dress rehearsal" beforehand to get any technical kinks worked out. 


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#34 Xellie

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:25 PM

Oda: Let us know what you would like to "rehearse" please :p_smile:

I will be handling the majority of "technical" things, including making undying buy a new mic if his sucks.


Edited by Xellie, 15 January 2015 - 02:26 PM.

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#35 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:29 PM

Already got a new mic. I just want enough time to test out the area and make sure no consumables ect ect is really no consumables ect ect.


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#36 Oda

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:31 PM

Already got a new mic. I just want enough time to test out the area and make sure no consumables ect ect is really no consumables ect ect.

Basically that, make sure the map works, etc. Doesn't need to be anything like a recording of a trial match, just some testing beforehand. 


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#37 Easly

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:45 PM

I dare them to cheat whilst I'm manning the camera. :p_idea:

 

 

If they autopot maybe you would notice. My issue is that a lot of people in classic PVP/WoE are using a program that shall not be named to automatically swap gears and use skills based on what they are being attacked by.


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#38 Xellie

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:05 PM

If they autopot maybe you would notice. My issue is that a lot of people in classic PVP/WoE are using a program that shall not be named to automatically swap gears and use skills based on what they are being attacked by.

 

That's old. I'm surprised that is still a thing.


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#39 Easly

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:43 PM

That's old. I'm surprised that is still a thing.

 

I was surprised it was still a thing too. People seem to do it in renewal as well but its much more noticable on classic.
 

I only realized people still do it when i came up on an afk guy in pvp with his gears opened and his gears would be switching to reduce whatever skill i was using on him.


Edited by Easly, 15 January 2015 - 03:48 PM.

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#40 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 07:35 PM

Basic rules and rough draft of ROCS tournament system.

 

Please discuss anything you'd like. Key points of discussion that I am most interested in is Biochemists and the Rules (which I broke down with reasons ect). 

 

This has been so far made from input here and private messages from past players of USRC, RWC, and Tournaments. 

 

Team compositions for ROCS

 

-Each team will be allowed a minimum and maximum of 3 players to participate in a ROCS match.

-Each team is given a "Team Captain", team captains must participate in all matches during and event day. However between events they may switch team captains.

-Each team may have "alternate" players that they can sub in between matches, however this must not cause any delay at all during the tournament.

-Each team may only have 1 of each class present during a match, aka no duplicate classes.

-Biochemist may or may not be banned from the tournament and may or may not have server limits on amount of bombs/coats they can use per match. (see section 1 at bottom for more info and provide your feedback if needed)

 

Team Captain role (very important)

 

-In order for me to communicate easily and in a timely manor to ensure the tournament runs smoothly I must be able to have an easy way to communicate to each team. It will be the team captain's responsibility to be able to communicate with me and pass information off to their team. Time delays for w/e reason puts a damper on everything, I want to reduce that as much as possible. I will be able to communicate through iRO community raidcall, skype, and in game via friends list.

 

Tournament formatting

 

-Each "event" day during the season will be double elimination (see champ tourny). Playoffs and Championship might be a tad bit different.

-Each team must finish in a "place", we must have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ect ect in order to determine rewards

-More to come

 

Tournament reward system

 

-It will be a "point" system

-Each team that participates will receive a minimum of 1 point as long as they stay for that entire event day.

-The higher you place on an event day, during regular season, the more points you earn. Exact amounts are still to be determined.

-Points will be able to be traded in during the "playoffs" for ROCS rewards that include "bypassing 1st round" as an expensive reward point prize. Exact rewards are still to be determined but they will be made to help teams that have been very active during the "regular season" to have a slight advantage during the "playoffs".

 

Tournament Rules (important, and will elaborate on rules in next section)

 

-No cheating of any kind (1)

-No consumables, gods, mvps, gr, dr, or mps (2)

-Must bring your own characters/gears (3)

-Must be on time and no delays, team captains must be 15 min early to setup communication with me (4)

-Winner of a match will be determined by last person/team standing or until time is up (5)

-Must be ok with being recorded and streamed (6)

-Violations of rules will be anything from loss of match to DQ from ROCS. (7)

-More specific rules to come

 

1v1 tournament info

 

Will be using same basic format, just no teams and will have no reward system but instead immediate prizes

 

*IMPORANT* Goals and things to keep in mind

 

-Trying to hit the right balance of "newer player friendly" and competitive play. Not easy to satisfy both. 

-If you have participated in USRC or anything of that nature.... Practice matches are the best part of everything! It is a lot of fun to play with people, see others strategies, try new things/experiment, learn from others, make new friends and enjoy playing the game!

-Trying to hit the right balance of super serious competitive play and casual for fun play. Not easy to satisfy both.

-A fun atmosphere to participate in and be involved with.

-Promote the server!!!!

-Have fun! :)

 

Section 1 Biochemists

 

First and foremost, I will be blunt. I see no reason why this class should even participate in ROCS. Here are some reasons why I do not think they should be allowed at all.

 

-They will ruin the variety of team comps (the most aggressive/common for pure competitive would be bio strings and high wiz)

-There is no counter to acid bomb (pvp settings and knock back is enabled, 100% damage from acid bomb, no GR/DR to counter, pnuemas don't matter in above team comp, the DPS without *ANY* sacrifice is much too high)

-FCP will ruin whatever chance Stalkers/Mastersmiths have of making onto "competitive" teams.

-Matches will all be dependant on biochemists instead of having multiple other ways to kill.

-Boring as hell to watch.

-Not the most "new player friendly" character to fight against (remember pvp has no damage reduction like WoE).

-For a "no consumable" tournament, they will be very expensive to fund. Plus they kind of use consumables.

 

Another option would be to pull a "USRC" type thing and only allow biochemists 5 bomb sets and 1 coat. It would make it an "option", but wouldn't be quite as powerful. 

 

Again I see no reason why this class should be allowed to play. They can out DPS a champion, however a champion will only be good for 1 fist and will depend entirely on a team mate to get SP back to be useful again. That requires teamwork and many mistakes could be made. The scholar could die and the champs gfist could be hidden, in that situation the champ will be utterly useless. There is no option like this vs a biochemist. 

 

No cheating of any kind (1)

 

-No GRF edits (including ndly)

-No 3rd party programs (including AP/Bot programs/WPE ect)

-No intentional pos lag. We know the difference between intentional pos lag (i do it all the time lol) and accidental. Just don't be a dick and it wont be an issue.

-Anything against Warpportal/Ragnarok Online rules

-Finding a loophole in the system to sneak consumables in will be automatic DQ from the event. Please report it to myself, Xellie and the CMs.

-More to come as I think about it

 

Punishments

 

-"Major cheating" such as ndly/WPE and that kind will be immediate DQ and perma banned from every ROCS event for life. Xellie and I will also provide recordings of said cheating and report it immediately. We are holding a very strict policy on cheating: 0 tolorance, period.

-"Minor cheating" such as intentional pos lag will be dealt with on the spot depending on how bad it was. Could be an automatic loss of a match or a DQ from an event. It will not be perma banned from ROCS. Pos bug will be dealt with on a case by case ruling.

 

As far as cheating goes... We haven't had any issues with it in the past tournament. Just don't be a douche and play the game for what it is. If you do that then there will be no problems or issues. It will only be a problem if you try to be cute and "sneak" cheats by me lol. Good luck with that haha ;)

 

No consumables, gods, mvps, gr, dr, or mps (2)

 

Reason for no gods, MVPS, gr, dr, or mp is quite simple. They have a very strong potential to creating a drastically unfair advantage for one side. It is no fun to have no special gears and fight people that are completely decked out with gears in a small party fight. It is also my belief that these types of items do not make players better. We want to encourage and create an environment that is relatively "even" when it comes to gear selections. That way somebody playing for a few months can still compete with people who have been playing since the beginning of the server and not be at a huge disadvantage. 

 

As far as consumables go, this should be a big discussion.... 

 

-HP/SP potions of any kind (disabled)

-Mercenaries (disabled)

-Buff scrolls (disabled): get a HP/Champ if you want buffs

-Speed potions (undecided): I would personally like speed potions, however a lot of people disliked them last tournament. Looking for opinions and reasons for or against it.

-Green potions/pancakes (undecided) I would personally like no green pots or pancakes. Looking for opinions and reasons for or against it.

-Everything else (disabled)

 

Must bring your own characters/gears (3)

 

Kind of simple. This will be done on iRO Classic. You are welcome to borrow gears and/or characters if your friends allow you to (we are not responsible for missing items). 

 

Must be on time and no delays, team captains must be 15 min early to setup communication with me (4)

 

I did this last tournament and had everybody on my friends list in game so I could do /hi "so and so vs so and so next match get ready". It is more to keep the tournament running as fast as possible with the least amount of downtime. It is a spectator sport and you all are just gladiators!!! But in all seriousness, I need to be able to talk to you and you need to talk to me. We can set it up in advance. I only want to talk to team captains because otherwise it would be way too many people to have to communicate to and organize well broadcasting. I am decent at multitasking, but not a pro.

 

Winner of a match will be determined by last person/team standing or until time is up (5)

 

Again, this one is basic. As far as a time limit, that is undecided. Maybe 5 minutes? Thoughts and ideas?

 

Must be ok with being recorded and streamed (6)

 

By participating we will be streaming you, hopefully on WP stream again. Kind of need to be ok for being recorded/streamed. This is to provide advertisement for the server and also by recording it gives us hard evidence if anybody cheats to report them. Shouldn't be an issue, the cheating, but this is also another way to get the point across that there will be 0 tolerance and reports will be made immediately.

 

Violations of rules will be anything from loss of match to DQ from ROCS. (7)

 

Depends on the rule broken. If it is related to cheating please see that section as we have a strict 0 tolerance and 0 BS policy. 

 

If it is time related it depends. I will work with team captains if a member of a team is running late to try and post pone the match so its not an issue. I am willing to work with people as much as possible, as long as I'm not being taken advantage of or something isn't ridiculous. If a team just can't make a match for w/e reason (min/max team members needed is 3) then they will automatically lose that match. I will do my best to avoid those situations, but I can only do so much too. 

 

 

 

 

 

Please discuss and voice opinions with reasons behind them. If something is stupid or sucks, tell me why. If you like something, why do you like it. Xellie and I do not get paid for this, we are doing it with the community for the server/community so please be a bit respectful <3. If you want to troll me or w/e, that is fine but please find me in another thread and troll the hell out of me. Please not here though <3 


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#41 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 08:29 PM

Allow Bios with 1 coat, however many acid bottles they want, but no bottle grenades. Make them go old school with terror or the summon skills and their homunculi. If they can't do that or deem it a waste of a slot then they just won't choose Bio :P

 

Is EDP allowed/will there be a limit on the number that a SinX can carry?

 

I would personally like greens or pancakes if we could only take like 5 of them in per person (total, not 5 of each), otherwise no.

 

When entering events, will we have to post our team composition?


Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 15 January 2015 - 08:53 PM.

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#42 Hardc0re

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 04:54 AM

nope


Edited by Hardc0re, 19 January 2015 - 11:54 AM.

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#43 TheSputnik

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 05:55 AM

 

No consumables, gods, mvps, gr, dr, or mps (2)

 

 

Looks interesting, this should add a lot more teamwork then the usual solo play.


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#44 Xellie

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 06:07 AM

I'm in favour of a hard limit on bombs usrc style.

 

I think Undying and I can count to 5? I can anyway, not so sure about him.


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#45 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 07:36 AM

Late tonight after work I'll post math and more in depth info on bios capabilities.

Thoughts on speed pots and other consumables, including things like green potions, royal jelly ect. Also thoughts on EDP.

Part of all this is to highly encourage gear swapping, such as peerless headgears and elemental armors ect.

Feedback would be wonderful. Have a great idea for tournaments but also want the communities input since this is for the community. Also in depth reasoning helps.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 16 January 2015 - 07:39 AM.

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#46 Themes

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 09:55 AM

Not sure about some of those consumables, maybe if you limit it to 5 of each per team or player per fight or something. If you want it to be a gearswapping thing you may want to get the GMs to update the geek glasses quest to make it a bit more reasonable so that people have access to more options (that are reasonably priced). I'm not sure how many of the more casual crew will make peerless/insomniac/any other i'm forgetting mids x3 per team at ~100m a pop.

 

How long are you expecting fights to last? Having limited offensive consumables like bombs or EDP is a pretty interesting thing, instead of being able to throw bombs for the duration or be EDP'd the entire time you've gotta choose and possibly going all in early may cost you if the other team survives.


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#47 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 10:17 AM

I want the fights to last long enough for people to adapt to the fight instead if instantly blown up. It is hard to explain, maybe I'll make a video demonstration tomorrow of no consumables 1v1.

Issue with infinite bombs would be that would be too easy to kill everything, even 1 vits. With no "hard" counter to it gear wise. Pneuma works, but knockback is enabled so a string + hw + bio would start and end the fights in a matter of a couple of seconds. Versus a hw or sinx or lk or whatever else you can swap elements to drastically reduce damage.

As far as a champ goes, they will be completely dependent on atleast 1 other member of thier team to kill multiple targets. It will also take longer to wipe the other team which offers a chance for a comeback.

I should note that I am not looking to create something that mimics gvg or usrc (although bomb limitation is good idea), working on creating something new with its own unique meta to create. Examples for gvg is all about bumiochemists. Usrc is very dependent on bards. I want this to offer more variable and viable teams/rosters then usrc and woe. Want to encourage more creativity (via hosting side) then just bio + strings + a displacer.

For the other guy (sorry on phone at work lol can't scroll up well making message). It's not about hurting new players who have only bios. In other games you can do patches ect to fix "op" type things in certain situations. Changing bios isn't an option nor should it be. I have best interest at heart for ROCS, but it will require some limitation or the removal of bios to drastically increase other viable classes.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 16 January 2015 - 10:50 AM.

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#48 Themes

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 11:16 AM

Yeah I only ask about lengths because that'd heavily impact how many of those consumables you'd use. You want to encourage people to be making choices and having the opportunity to carry unlimited edps/coats/traps/greens/panacea/speeds doesnt really make it much of a choice, if you've got em use em. It also adds the element of counterplay, seeing the other guys use all their speeds or status consumables or last edp/bombs means hey look we can press the advantage now.

 

You might want to post some of your calculations for bomb damage here when you get home so its clear just how silly they are without woe reducs.


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#49 Hardc0re

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:04 PM

nope


Edited by Hardc0re, 19 January 2015 - 11:55 AM.

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#50 Gn1ydnu

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:06 PM

Bio damage at 124 int (no bless, enchanted va, elemental sword).

24,000 per bomb at 100 vit no reductions or 64,000 dps

11,530 per bomb at 100 vit 40% Demi and 20% nuetral or 34,620 dps

9,600 per bomb at 100 vit 50% Demi and 20% nuetral or 28,800 dps

2,240 per bomb at 10 vit 30% Demi and 20% nuetral or 6,720 dps to a 1 vit (plus some amount of vit job bonus).

Point is, if anything gets caught out for less the a second, regardless of reductions or vit then they will die. I was very modist with the int on biochemist.

I get that players must die, but there is no sacrifice needed to do that type of damage. Comparing it to a champ gfisting... The champ must get into melee range, gfist and depend on scholar to so then repeated the proccess. The third fist would be hardest because scholar will have to naturally gain enough sp to indulge then induldge before passing so to champ again. Even with players who work well together and can play perfectly champ + scholar would require a large amount if time and make huge sacrifices to do damage. This includes champ being without sp for w/e amount if time and scholar losing large amounts of hp (multiple times) to feed sp into champ.

A biochemist has no drawback and bomb damage is too strong for this type of game mode IMHO.
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