151 replies to this topic

[Campitor]

The "best" solution to fix it is probably going to be dropping monster stats/drops onto the G_ monsters and hijacking a bunch of "real" monster IDs to use elsewhere. If you sat down and put the effort in and freed up a large enough number of monsters it's probably only something you'd have to do once.

 

Trip report:

 

Just went down there with Wizard/Priest and here's some highlights.

 

The MVP has real atk values, the Caster has average int (I'd recommend a little bit more), the Melee/Ranged both need actual atk values. Health values seem alright, they range from 300-500k and the MVP has 5mil (too much probably). None of them are boss flagged (including the MVP) so they all froze to the Wizard, but with their high health values they still took a while to die. You could probably clear through it alright with a geared Champ/Priest/Scholar.

 

Ranged - Doesnt really do anything, barely any skill use, the only thing I actually noticed was a double strafe. Damage was low due to low atk values.

Caster - Cool. Has a wide variety of abilities with some different elements, you can default Aqua and avoid most of the scary things. Damage is a little low probably.

Melee - Like the Ranged, didnt do a lot. We noticed it backslide once and I got fibered once. Damage was low due to atk values.

MVP - Tankable with Pneuma, not sure if this is intended. Hits reasonably hard ~1-1.5k per hit. Has a LOT of skills, they're not terribly scary though. It's hard to judge how hard it'd be without a mob, but I'd say it's definitely on the weak side right now.

 

I'm not sure how SinX/Sniper would do down there, it's a lot of health and they have a fairly wide array of defense/elements. But Champ/Wiz seem like strong potential killers for small groups of 3-4.

Damage was set to what we posted in the thread. I will look through the AI and see how we can improve them...

[Campitor]

Archer

Will now always Fiberlock & Arrow Repel when low hp. This combo has a 50 second cool down on it so most likely you'll still kill them easily. (I think)

Berserk State - > Alot more double strafes

Rush State -> High chance of double strafing but a longish cool down

Idle -> Lowish Chance of Arrow Shower

Self heals added for idle state currently only was on rush state

rush state heals are more effective.

[Themes]

Ok, so you wanted the difficulty to be somewhere around Biolabs (I'm assuming 3). You're going to have to make things do enough damage to be a threat (especially for the amount of health they have).

 

Using Bio2/3 as examples:

 

Ranged - keep in mind Pneuma will block all their damage so you can probably make them hit harder and punish tanking out of Pneuma:

Challenge Dungeon attack 400

Bio 2 Attack    684 ~ 904 (9) 

Bio 3 Attack    1,226 ~ 1,854 (14) (with a moderate to high chance to power up)

 

Caster:

Bio 2 Int 120

Challenge Dungeon Int 150

Bio 3 Int 180

 

Melee (Thief/SinX):

Challenge Dungeon attack 500

Bio 2 Attack    693 ~ 889 (1)

Bio 3 Attack    2,020 ~ 2,320 (1)

 

Challenge Dungeon MVP 150 int

Kathy MVP Bio3 223 Int.

 

From what we experienced the one thing that felt "strong enough" was the Caster, whos Int at 150 is actually in a good place between the Bio2/3 monsters. The MVP was auto attacking my well geared Priest for 1k and the Wizard for 1.5k. With 5000 attack it may be a bit much for all the monsters on the map, but it was actually threatening. However it also has the same Int as the caster and can just be tanked in Pneuma.

 

Also dont forget to flag the MVP as Boss.

Edited by Themes, 27 August 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

*cough*

 

Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 30 August 2015 - 09:07 PM.

[Themes]

Challenge dungeon trip report #2:

 

The Ranged low hp fiber + arrow repel works well. It does double strafe more, but it's still fairly "boring". The heals dont do anything (300hp?) and they just sit there attacking and occasionally double strafing.

 

Attack damage from the Ranged/Melee are still way way way too low. You could tank 10-20 of them right now without any real fear of death, they just dont do any damage. Their hp to damage ratio is waaaaaaay off, here are some things with similar HP pools, they are almost all MVP and have 2-3 times the attack of the monsters we have right now.

 

Boss is still not boss flagged, its sight range is really low for some reason so it's entirely passive until you walk towards it.

 

If you need me to write out a description for the monparameter table like I did with the NPC skills I can do that.

 

Honestly it didnt really feel any different at all, here's a few things that would be a step forward:

• Boss property the MVP
• Increase Ranged/Melee attack values
• Add more skills to the Melee, if you want to fit in with the Thief theme go with something like Double Attack or Stone Fling (Rush state) or even a hide/stealth
• Add one extra active skill to the Ranged, longish cooldown Arrow Shower, Focused Arrow Strike etc, right now when it's healthy it just stands there occasionally double strafing

[Campitor]

Okay so for next week lets update

Ranged

Arrow Vulcan while berserk

Focused Arrow Strike while rush

up the HP heal levels

 

Melee

Gains Cloaking while Idle

Enchant Deadly Poison While Idle

Counter Instinct while Berserk

Divest as a last ditch effort (low chance below 5% HP)

Random Intimidate chance while berserk (not sure if this works.. it should though)

 

Increase damage for both Melee and Ranged

 

Working on the drops table.

 

 

[Campitor]

Initial thoughts for drops

 

MVP

Rare Subject Aura Chance(or if we make the MVP tough enough Subject Aura for all assuming we can get it working at all.)

Always GSB (maybe a pack of GSBs?)

OP(eriwinkle)B
ACA

 

Melee

LV4 Swords / Daggers / Katars

HP Items

Melee Themed Food

 

Ranged

LV 4 Bows / Instruments/Whips
Arrow Quivers

Ranged Themed Food

 

Caster

LV4 Staff / Wands / Books / Spears

Magic Themed Food

[Ramses]

Ok lets talk about drops e-pals.
 
The last (successful) Challenge Dungeon we had consisted almost entirely of Ygg Seeds with a bunch of other misc drops (Crowns, Bone Helms etc). This time around the monsters are going to be harder/scarier and I'd like to see a shift away from the heavy Seed drops we had.
 
darkabe made a pretty cool post that had nice links to all of the New World stuff that we still dont have:

Spoiler

 

I'd like to see a bunch of these items available from or through the dungeon. There's 3 monsters and an MVP in there so we have 32 potential loot slots to fill.

 

A lot of people have expressed interest in seeing GSBs available in the dungeon also and I'm sure people would like to see Seeds return (at a more reasonable rate). It's going to be hard to match the drops up with the monster theme as we generally do (staffs on casters etc) as there's a few items I'd like to see that dont really have a comparable monster.

 

Here's what I'm thinking about right now.

 

Caster:

1. Trash item 50%
2. GSB 8%
3. Empty Bottle Box (200) 5%
4. Seed 3%
5. ?
6. Sprint Shoes 0.5%
7. Sprint Mail 0.5%
8. Sprint Ring 0.1%

Ranged

1. Trash item 50%
2. GSB 8%
3. Seed 3%
4. ?
5. Bradium Shield 0.3%
6. Pinguicula Corsage 0.1%
7. Angelic Ring 0.1%
8. ?

Melee

1. Trash item 50%
2. Karvo 10%
3. GSB 8%
4. Seed 3%
5. Lunakaligo 0.2%
6. Black Cat 0.1%
7. Cold Heart 0.1%
8. ?

MVP

1. GSB 100%
2. GSB 100%
3. GSB 100%
4. Eraser 5%
5. Ivory Knife 5%
6. Leather of Tendrilion 5%
7. ?
8. Slotting coupon for mids?

That's a rough idea, just throwing stuff together, it's hard to fit the useful drops for an entire expanded town into four monsters without making them a little too packed. Someone also mentioned potentially using the trash drops for this quest where you turn in items for consumables

<a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://irowiki.org/c...ipatriate_Union" href="http://irowiki.org/classic/Tripatriate_Union" s_feud"="">I really had no idea what to put in the MVP to be honest, the boss drops from New World seem a bit underwhelming. We did supposedly have the Geek Glasses coupon in the last Challenge Dungeon MVP drop table (although i never saw one) but due to the current price of mids it may just be better to use one of the universal tokens.

 

this please, just tweak the drop %

[lxst]

what is a rare subject aura? a graphic change for the 99 aura?????

 

and for drops i like the food and pack of gsb ideas. an item turn in npc might be a better idea. where we can pick what food to get for our tokens. that way i could kill mage mobs and still get food for my sin, lol. 

 

are we not going to see new world drops for this? are we holding back for a future plan?

Edited by lxst, 02 September 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[Themes]

Ok so I dont have to quote my last post thats cool.

 

As much as I like the idea of creating themed drops for each monster, I think it's time we made some of the New World gear available. I sort of packed as much of the useful things as I could into the four monsters but there's a few pieces I'm sure people *really* want and would definitely spend time hunting for. You can cut down the number of items a lot and put in a bunch of fluff, but some things would be nice to have.

 

The MVP drop chances are interesting, it depends on how hard the boss is and how often you plan to have it spawn (as well as how rare you want the subject aura to be). Speaking from experience killing the Oda Frog for the sunglasses coupon was not worth the effort, I wanted one and killed it when I saw it but didnt get anything at all. This time around we're going to have a much more difficult boss that should in theory require a group to kill, if you're going to have it spawn every 1-2 hours I dont see a reason why you cant set the rates so you've got it at say 10-20% (after gum/vip etc) so that if you want one for yourself and your group you have to farm a bit. But if you're going to make it ultra hard/long spawn you want to increase the rate significantly. Personally I favour a shorter respawn with lower drop rates, it allows more people to get involved and discourages a single player/group of players from farming it and holding the market hostage on a cool and unique item.

 

What sort of HP items would you drop from the melee guy? What sort of foods are we talking about here, Str/Dex/Int food? Quivers are fairly uninteresting as a drop (and if you're doing multiple elements they take up a lot of drop slots). But you could probably justify adding one quiver for rare/expensive arrows to a slot.

 

People are going to expect Seeds after the last one, you dont want to give them at the same drop rate, but that was the main draw last time around.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

Drop seeds to 0.5. Same as Stem Worm.

 

Need to phase them back into being an expensive luxury consumable. The status quo should not be maintained.

 

Oh also on the topic of AI, I was in Holy Ground 4 a lot last night and really enjoyed the variety of skills being thrown at me. There were high rate Dec AGIs, both types of Lex, defensive SWs and self Heals, perma Sight, Dispels, Armour Divestment, Stone Curses, elemental attacks, status attacks like Sleep and Curse, Crit Slashes, AoEs to pull out of Cloak and such~ It all synergised really well together. The Sights and AoEs are excellent in keeping Thief characters on their toes, coupled with a few Demon mobs running around so they can't stay perma-cloaked/stealthed. The Dec AGIs on approach force fights which is really quite fun, especially on a MS where it requires two CBs and an AR to fully rebuff. The very high rate Lex Aeternas followed by strong skills like SB and Dark Cross are great in varying the damage so that players can't get into a potting rhythm. The Seeker's instant JTs are very good at interrupting and messing up positioning, and the moderate rate SWs force repositioning as well, to get around it or even make use of it by circling around and swapping places. The Soul Strikes worked to the same effect, to punish movement away from or around the mob with short, repetitive posbugging. The constant barrage of statuses were very funny too. Annoying but not overwhelmingly so, and there was still room for counterplay instead of just being immediately stopped and killed due to one careless mistake. Attacking and then just falling sleep for a bit, or losing crit and lagging back a bit with Curse, or just getting rooted thanks to Stone Curse~ And the divests lol.

 

None of those are particularly capable of killing on their own, but with large mobs present it made careless approaches dangerous. It also had a bit of an unquantifiable factor that a lot of people seem to miss - the statuses and skills so weren't horribly deadly and gamebreaking that if you were hit by one your run was over; instead, they were (and are) inconveniences that could be played around with a bit of intelligent positioning, gearing and skill use, open to any class that tried it, and the fun factor was  retained in approaching and dealing with them. A lot of what I've seen in previous challenge dungeons has not been "fun" - it's been unnecessarily damaging, mind-numbingly boring, just plain annoying. There's been very little interesting gameplay or, in the case of those annoying util skills, counterplay involved. 

 

Spoiler

This is an issue with certain player skills in PvP too, such as GFist and Acid Bomb which are inherently anti-fun and give an incredible amount of power for little effort (worsened by the infinite supplies of our server), with no real counterplay on the part of targets aside from very broad things like specced stat builds and/or spending 1b+ on gear for dealing with those skills and only those skills, or very specific defensive things that only a few classes can play to and require more advanced mechanical skill and awareness to use effectively than just running up and spamclicking - disparity much?; different topic tho

 

I feel like complementary skills similar to what can be found in Holy Ground would be great in the Challenge Dungeon, instead of just the random hodgepodge of annoying skills which don't really work very well together that have been thrown on the mobs atm, and are currently planned for implementation later.

 

Also I recommend anyone with a say in how Challenge Dungeons should be laid out and filled reads this (tl;dr requiring party class and role optimisation to have fun in dungeons is an epic fail). I know that regular people like myself are not allowed in your super secret dev chat where all the decisions are made so I can only hope that Sir Themes graces me, one of the common-folk with his understanding and perhaps takes one of my points onboard <3

Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 03 September 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[Xellie]

Initial thoughts for drops

 

MVP

Rare Subject Aura Chance(or if we make the MVP tough enough Subject Aura for all assuming we can get it working at all.)

Always GSB (maybe a pack of GSBs?)

OP(eriwinkle)B
ACA

 

Melee

LV4 Swords / Daggers / Katars

HP Items

Melee Themed Food

 

Ranged

LV 4 Bows / Instruments/Whips
Arrow Quivers

Ranged Themed Food

 

Caster

LV4 Staff / Wands / Books / Spears

Magic Themed Food

 

The MVP drops seem fine, but if you're putting in OPB on the merit of slot coupons, it's not worth it with the low chance/cheap price of slot mids. It would make sense to put in a slot mid coupon directly with a low or zero fail rate.

 

Melee:

Lv4 weapons are usually resalable for seal quest purposes (but also a great way to prevent the quest being spammed) - if we're talking about that kind of weapon tho, would we be looking at slot versions? Of personal interest to me, I need slot infiltrators.... would non slot ones drop at a decent rate? or slotted ones at a low rate? A similar question goes for icepicks. These would both be great drops to have, but they can't be super common like the old dungeon was.

 

I also can't help but notice there's no axe/club/chain trype drop.

 

Ranged:

I'm guessing weapons here would be such things as Orc Archer Bow, Rudra bow, berserk guitars... i dont even think there is a good level 4 whip. Overall, it wouldn't be that rewarding for ranged classes. The only quivers I can think of that would be desirable are steel/holy/immaterial (I would rather not see mass immaterial arrows available). Perhaps to theme it, looking at armors such as sniping suits would be better for these classes. Again, rarity is key here, because the last challenge dungeon drops were waaaaaaaaaaay out there.

 

Casters:

Do casters use anything that isn't a TSOD/healing/piercing/bg weapon? If you touch this with TSOD, that's gonna hurt endless towerers. Elemental books are fine. Need more of those. Spears? pffft. Might want to consider fists here too.

 

For food, anything 7-10 stat is motivational, but I would rather see packs of ingrediants than made food. (reason : to do.) also, whilst I am thinking about it, ingame food still weighs 100 and kshop food weighs 1. Pls fix, or food drops would be hell.

 

other thoughts : GSBs are always good. Personally I'd like to see a way to earn slotted elemental armors aside from monster races - not at too high of a rate. A TI giving points and exp here could totally work for this and control the rate at which the items could be earned.

Whilst I'm all pro new world drops, I guess they need to be looked at.

 

other items: could consider things such as regen pots/life pots from the melee instead of direct hp items, mdef pots and ele resist pots from the casters/ranged. We already get enough ygg item overflow from a lack of econ control in WoE.
 

Edited by Xellie, 03 September 2015 - 11:49 PM.

[Themes]

I know that regular people like myself are not allowed in your super secret dev chat where all the decisions are made so I can only hope that Sir Themes graces me, one of the common-folk with his understanding and perhaps takes one of my points onboard <3

 

I get it that you've got an issue with how the GMs handle things. But this Challenge Dungeon is entirely Campitors baby, I'd appreciate it if you stopped implying that I have any more involvement in the development of this dungeon than what I post here. If you would like to have your say, I recommend that you get a couple of friends together, go down there and post about your experience. I wish more people would because I'm sure my experience is plenty different to other peoples, but because nobody wants to take five or ten minutes to explore it I'm the only person giving feedback right now.

 

Back on topic you've got to keep in mind that the monsters only have 8 drop slots each and there's only three of them. So sort of expanding on what Xellie said you may be looking at something like this:

 

Melee:

Trash item

Level 4 Sword (list)

Level 4 Dagger (list)

Level 4 Katar (list)

Regen/Life Pot/Box of Whites or something?

+7-10 Str Food

?

?

 

Ranged:

Trash item

Level 4 Bow (list)

Level 4 Instrument (list)

Level 4 Whip (list)

Steel/Holy/Immaterial Arrow Quiver (Immaterial Arrow Quivers already drop fairly commonly from Snipers in Bio3)

+7-10 Dex Food

?

?

 

Caster:

Trash Item

Level 4 Staff (list)

Level 4 Book (list)

Level 4 Spear (list)

+7-10 Int Food

Box of royal cooking kits?

?

?

 

That still leaves Two Handed Swords/Spears/Staves, One/Two Handed Axes, Maces and maybe Claws? There's a ton of really uninteresting/useless items in those lists and a bunch of things that shouldnt be implemented like Xellie said with the top floor ET loot. There's probably a lot more level 3 weapons that are more useful than their level 4 counterparts, the elemental books and orc archer bow come to mind immediately.

 

People have been pushing token type reward systems for a while time now, you could just remove a majority of item drops from the monsters themselves (leave in some rarer/more desirable items) and drop tokens that can be exchanged at an NPC for a huge array of rare or useful items, it's a system you could expand or include in different areas of the game too.

 

I'm also curious about drop rates, I feel it'd be really hard to design things at various rates because there's so many potential modifiers that puts anyone with VIP and endless gum at a huge advantage for a majority of drop percentages. Do you want people to go down in a group of 3-5 and come out with a handful of average drops they can split up and maybe something great? Having consumables (Boxes/Seeds/Foods) as a reward is a really good way to make people feel like their time/effort/supplies was worth it without having to reward them with piles of strong items.

 

Also while I'm thinking about it, nobody has talked about experience...would people like to see it set at a lower rate and have kill count quests that gives you job/base experience options? This would encourage more people who are 99/6x to participate and also allow more room for parties that are not on share.

[Xellie]

have kill count quests that gives you job/base experience options? This would encourage more people who are 99/6x to participate and also allow more room for parties that are not on share.

 

VIP choice of job/base all in would be amazing.

 

edit: for weapon drops, they could come in a box with a chance at weapons. Like katar box, sword box, etc.... this is fun because gambling is fun and it would vend, plus also it acts as a sly increase to drop slots.

 

edit edit : food boxes could be the return of the caster/ranged/melee food boxes from early on in the server life!

Edited by Xellie, 04 September 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

I recommend that you get a couple of friends together

 

 

wtf are "friends"?

[Xellie]

friend

 

[frend]

 

noun

1.a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard.

 

2. a person who gives assistance; patron; supporter:

friends of the Boston Symphony.

 

3. a person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile:

Who goes there? Friend or foe?

 

4. a member of the same nation, party, etc.

 

5. (initial capital letter) a member of the Religious Society of Friends; a Quaker.

 

6. person associated with another as a contact on a social-networking website:

We've never met, but we're Facebook friends.

 

7. An associate that a mastersmith player would be unfamilar with.

 

 

 

Edited by Xellie, 04 September 2015 - 03:18 AM.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

7. An associate that a mastersmith player would be unfamilar with.

 

Heeeeeeey...

 

I also play Stalker!

[Xellie]

even less chances of friends.

[lyndel84]

Please add Gungnir as a drop. I don't even care which monster drops it. I've been looking for Gungnirs all over the place. No one ever sells them and the only monster that drops it is Mistress at an insanely -_-ty droprate :/

 

Edit: Also can you please, please, PLEASE do Geffenia changes? I've been asking for this for years now. Just because no one ever goes there doesn't mean this map doesn't have to be changed. In fact the reason no one goes there is BECAUSE you guys still haven't changed it.

 

You have to do a long ass quest to unlock this area, yet this area has one of the most retarded monster setups ever. Please remove or atleast reduce the fake angels and/or Violy's and instead add more demon monsters to the map. Undead/Demon monsters mixed with Holy/Angel monsters on one map is just dumb. Please. Change. It.

Edited by lyndel84, 09 September 2015 - 07:37 AM.

[Castello]

Please add Gungnir as a drop. I don't even care which monster drops it. I've been looking for Gungnirs all over the place. No one ever sells them and the only monster that drops it is Mistress at an insanely -_-ty droprate :/

 

Edit: Also can you please, please, PLEASE do Geffenia changes? I've been asking for this for years now. Just because no one ever goes there doesn't mean this map doesn't have to be changed. In fact the reason no one goes there is BECAUSE you guys still haven't changed it.

 

You have to do a long ass quest to unlock this area, yet this area has one of the most retarded monster setups ever. Please remove or atleast reduce the fake angels and/or Violy's and instead add more demon monsters to the map. Undead/Demon monsters mixed with Holy/Angel monsters on one map is just dumb. Please. Change. It.

 

don't beg too hard

your knees will hurt

[Themes]

Ok so I dont think I'm going to bother convincing people to head down there this week. I noticed the melee guys occasionally stealthing and everything did a small amount more damage.

 

However the main issue is still how unscary the place is, to illustrate here's some pictures:

 

Current Challenge Dungeon:

Spoiler

That's 2-3 Melee, 2 Ranged and 2 Casters. It's not enough to kill my Priest spamming heal. I'm not wearing anything fancy, the scariest thing down there is easily the Waterball from the Casters.

 

I ignored the MVP, but it's the only monster that actually feels scary and definitely not something scary enough to be considered an MVP.

 

Here's Bio2:

Spoiler

I didnt take the time to activate their AI, but its very similar incoming damage to whats in the challenge dungeon, it's roughly the same number of monsters as in the first picture, no big deal to stand there and heal spam through.

 

Bio3 before:

Spoiler

I just took a weak spell from that Wizard and only the left Sniper is actually hitting me (it powered up instantly).

 

Bio3 after:

Spoiler

This is what happened when the Wizard finished its cast (granted I wasnt wearing Wind Armor) but I died instantly one second later from skill damage from a single monster and autos from another. It's all preventable, but i couldnt actually get multiple things together to show you incoming damage differences because you die straight away.

 

It's hard to express just how different it feels to go down to Bio3/DG and have to play cautious. The Challenge Dungeon does not currently do that, either through lack of active skills, low monster variety or low damage. I'm not really sure how to explain it or if we need gameplay footage or to actually drag Camp along for 20-30 minutes to participate.

[Xellie]

I don't think it should be as scary as bio3, but it should def be more scary than bio2

 

(I think the cute kobolds make it less threatening)

[AmericanPie]

Yes. Should put more horror creature and environment more darker. It's too light, like fighting monster on valk woe map

[Campitor]

Classic Sakray Lives!

[lxst]

weren't we supposed to get a drops table?

Edited by lxst, 23 September 2015 - 11:28 AM.