265 replies to this topic

[Feuer]

Eh, maybe if 3vrs 1 (2), - but one cleric, focusing all their heals on one person? yea, they should be pretty much God mode. 

 

And that's the expectation that will prevent this game's PvP from ever being balanced. 

Also about your LoL comment;

LoL, Dota2, BlackGold, WoW, MS, GW2, ROSE [obviously], RaiderZ, Aion, NWN, etc [others random mmo's that aren't popular like DragonSaga lmao]

I've played more then a 'few' MMO's, and I've seen a lot of healer archetypes. Some good, and some bad, and a few terrible. ROSE's Clerics fit into that 'terrible' section. They're disproportionate and too impacting, and it's obvious. Because they get jumped all the time, they think 'I need more defense to deal with 5 people hitting me', when in truth there wouldn't be a huge need to kill the cleric, more tactical advantage if they did if the healing proportions and buff impacts weren't as severe. And I suggest this route not as a nerf, but because 'balancing' God Mode isn't possible. You can't just keep throwing updates around hoping to counter balance 1 class that can nullify approximately an entire teams damage by themselves, it just doesn't and won't happen.

[carlosrose]

Feuer is just funny how complaining about heals of 10k being op, but a critical of 16k is not? How that even makes sense ...

 

[VModCupcake]

Obviously this is a heated topic and people are very passionate about it but opinions can be made without flaming.  There are way too many insults and posts quoting insulting posts for me to edit them so this is an official warning

 

Please refrain from name calling or ridiculing another player when you post or this topic will be closed and posting restrictions issued. 

 

Come on guys, you know how to give your point of view without resorting to this. Play nice ok?

[Feuer]

Obviously this is a heated topic and people are very passionate about it but opinions can be made without flaming.  There are way too many insults and posts quoting insulting posts for me to edit them so this is an official warning

 

Please refrain from name calling or ridiculing another player when you post or this topic will be closed and posting restrictions issued. 

 

Come on guys, you know how to give your point of view without resorting to this. Play nice ok?

 

I'm sorry, but for the past few years, I have posted about this topic with respect, clearly the point was never made, so bite me. 

If I feel an idea is stupid, I'm going to say so. I don't care if it 'offends' them, personally, how is anyone supposed to know what would or wouldn't irritate someone hm? You think we're psychic? Naw. So if I'm going to be 'warned' for speaking my opinion about a stance or subject that I think is moronic, I'm going to. 

Edited by Feuer, 26 March 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[TheRealCaNehDa]

I personally, do not think the cleric is broken, I think the heals are fine.... --

Justify to me, why you think you should be able to solo kill a person that is being healed by a cleric, -- You're fighting 2 people, not just one.

It makes no sense to me that you think you should be able to put down 1 person being supported by another. --- Do you think you're God Feuer?


Sorry about that VMod, I replaced my insult with less of an insult.

Edited by Zurn, 26 March 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[KatsuraKujo]

I personally, do not think the cleric is broken, I think the heals are fine.... -- 

Justify to me, why you think you should be able to solo kill a person that is being healed by a cleric, -- You're fighting 2 people, not just one. 

It makes no sense to me that you think you should be able to put down 1 person being supported by another. --- Do you think you're God Feuer? 

 

This is actually possible, but it depends which class is fighting against which other class. For example, a 2 hand champ vs raider with a cleric. It is possible cuz, mute cleric, hit raider with other skills, and mute cleric again. Even so, i think the mute on the 2 hand also causes damage so it would also hurt the cleric. 

 

after long time of arguing, i understand where this is going and i'll shut up after this.

 

Miki

[TheRealCaNehDa]

I just like the heals how they are, and believe nerfing them will hurt lvling noobs, will hurt PVM... 

Don't really care for PVP tbh. 

[Feuer]

Yeah cause a level 100 cleric with a 9k Heal is needed when everyones max HP is 6-8k.. 

 

Also I said it should be possible to kill them, but odds are they'd kill you first [due to the cleric prolonging the time it takes to kill] How did you miss that. 

 

I think any heal that can generate 100%+ of a characters HP should be on a significant cooldown. Berserk doesn't increase my Champs damage by 100%-150%, so why should a cleric have a skill that can heal 100-150% of a chars HP on a 18sec CD [mind you thats the AoE! Which translates to 100-150% x 10 [CD max team] 1000%-1500% of your teams effective HP in 1 cast on a 18 sec CD].

 

And just to verify that I wasn't over estimating the healing for low level players who are leveling, I asked a 110 cleric what his int + cha were, this is the totals.

 

110: Max HP 5,439

444 CHA

121 INT

Support Tree:

Cure: 531 + Puri [2.0s cd]

Heal: 1,411 [4.0s cd]

Party Heal: 933 [6.0s cd] AoE

Restore: 2,619 [8.0s cd] + Restore effect [Char Level*2=HP Regen]

Party Restore: 1,739 [12.0s cd] + Restore Effect [Char Level*2=HP Regen] AoE

 

Cleric Tree:

Recovery: 5,332 [10.0s cd]

Integrity: 9,175 [12.0s cd]

Party Recovery:3,546 [15.0s cd] AoE

Party Integrity: 6,113 [18.0s cd] AoE

Heavenly Grace: 5,445 [10.0s cd] AoE

 

With those figures I pulled 6 random noobs in OT asked them their Max HP [buffed with FS + Stat buffers HP]

[6,375 + 8,423 + 6,899 + 7,540 + 8,987 + 9,012] = Total HP Pool of their PT [47,236]

if you cast each of that clerics skills 1 time in a 20 second window [it's possible to cast multiples in this time frame but I'm establishing a base]

that totals to 149,511 HP being restored in 20 seconds [not counting the restore effect]

 

I also asked if he was mana stable [after explaining it to him] he said yes, as long as he used his mana flames he would never run out of mana, but if he wanted, he could also use his Salamander flame and just pot the MP back when it got low.

So just to clerify

Groups combined HP 47,236

Clerics heal / 20 s [minimum] 149,511 [without running out of MP or Restore]

That's 316.5% of your groups HP every 20 seconds at minimum, not jus tyour own, 316.5% of 6 combined! players.. rofl

The last detail was this

He wasn't using max charm items. He did have a leprechaun hat and some style glasses, the rest was his reinforced set and NPC jewelry. 

 

So, how's that not broken for "leveling purposes" .. lol 

Edited by Feuer, 26 March 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[carlosrose]

Such a waste of time trying to argue with someone that doesnt properly play FS cleric in a PVP situation

 

Leveling or PVM aint comparable to what you experience in CD/AA/DP or even in TG

[TheRealCaNehDa]

This is why I like to argue with Feuer

 

- So Feuer, what would ur fix be? 

Edited by TheRealCaNehDa, 26 March 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[pandasoup23]

i thought this discussion was about fs clerics in PVP situations, why u talking about lvling and asking a lvl 100? .-.

 

anyways, im not saying that a cleric has to be super tanky or anything, but they should be able to tank atleast 2-3 ppl to effectively support a team in CD. You talked about flames but in cd, flames dont last that long, especially now that all aoers have lumi...

[LunaXavier]

He only plays in TG playground..where he test his non fully geared cleric and thinking that he think is fully ready to handle cd without any problem just because he tested it in a controllable environment which is TG. He lacks CD experience cuz he's afraid of getting targeted in CD.Testing in TG is completely different from CD..

[pandasoup23]

testing vs wars is different, and dont give me more stats about pvm and leveling...aint no body got time for your stats

[carlosrose]

+1 to all those last things! just let it be... 

[TheRealCaNehDa]

He only plays in TG playground..where he test his non fully geared cleric and thinking that he think is fully ready to handle cd without any problem just because he tested it in a controllable environment which is TG. He lacks CD experience cuz he's afraid of getting targeted in CD.Testing in TG is completely different from CD..

I hi-jacked the train. 

[KatsuraKujo]

Feuer i don't know how you count the amount healed but this is something i jsut did with my cleric. You said "that totals to 149,511 HP being restored in 20 seconds" which i found to be incorrect. 

What i did was, following your base time which is 20s, i set my timer and spam my pt heals  and counted the amount of times i press one of it, so the data can, and could be inconsistent. Here's what i got with Miki's def gear (760 cha) Note: these numbers did not take account of the passives

 

Heal (Party) - Total times pressed: 3, Total healed: 4701

Restore (Party) - Total times pressed : 2, Total Healed: 5836

Recovery (Party)- Total times pressed : 1, Total Healed :5952

Integrity (Party) - Total times pressed : 1, Total Healed : 10262

Heavenly Grace - Total times pressed : 2, Total Healed : 18280

 

This in total is 45031 Hp healed. So this takes to account the time of the animation, as well as the delay of the game to server (well from my point anyways) in the frame of 20s. 

Your total was 149,511 and that's too big for even 760 cha. I really don't know where you got the number from. If you say the other heals, then it would be a problem because even so, the others would be dying or half dead. Or possibility 1 or 2 people died. Cuz focusing heals on 1 person would only keep that 1 person alive while the others recieved that 45k within 20s. And you being experienced in MMOs, 20s is quite a lot of time.

 

I assume the total number of times i pressed as the same as when i have my cha gear on (1024) *its not maxed i know*

Heal (Party) - Total: 5969

Restore (Party) - Total: 7408

Recovery (Party) - Total: 7555

Integrity (Party) - Total: 13024

Heavenly Grace - Total: 23202

 

Which gives the total healed to be 57153. Considering this trades def for this kind of heals, i'd pretty much say its fair. Cuz my def is down to 2k without buffs and 4k with them. 4k is definately not enough for any purposes other then tank low lvl monsters but that's not even possible (other then OT) cuz they don't get agro cuz of lvl difference.

 

Also, in my def gear part, my def is 6.1k with buffs, and so making that amount of heals quite decent to mearly help keep 1 single party of 5 (refering to dg for now) alive. While the mobs in there can also kill. So nothing is really wrong. See if pvp wise, wearing my def gear, they are getting constatly hit and the highest hp i can possibility think of is 30k ( and i mean this can go higher cuz estimatingly Knights have about that much, more or less). so 10k extra heals. While considering people in pvp hit about 1-2k each second, having an extra 10k heals is also quite balance imo. So i don't think heals now its imbalance, i think its pretty good.

 

Miki

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 26 March 2015 - 07:22 PM.

[TheRealCaNehDa]

+1

[Feuer]

Miki, you didn't multiply the AoE's by the number of people commonly in a PT / or Arena group, you noob...

 

And I gave a PvM example because Canedah said he didnt want the healing reduction to afect pvm negatively for leveling players. 

Edited by Feuer, 26 March 2015 - 09:29 PM.

[KatsuraKujo]

yeah but what i mean is not healing everyone total, i mean healing in pt per player so it doesn't take to account literally the total amount healed of all players cuz if i did that, then wouldn't the number be huge? and that's TOTAL HEALED to ALL players which can further clear things up.

 

But still, its what i think, cuz heals are the same all the way and it doesn't matter how many people are there, its not divided or anything to everyone gradually, its just fixed amount of heals depending on the cha. That's why i didn't multiply with the possible numbers in a DG run or grp

[3722121031200347517]

Miki, you didn't multiply the AoE's by the number of people commonly in a PT / or Arena group, you noob...

 

And I gave a PvM example because Canedah said he didnt want the healing reduction to afect pvm negatively for leveling players. 

  

 

and you call them kids.. oh the irony

[Feuer]

The fact that it's not divided is WHY you multiply it by the current number of members in the AoE radius. If it WAS divided between them then you wouldn't multiply it. That's why it is broken, because it DOES multiply and it IS a huge number. Thank you for completely validating my point towards Canada's statement that he doesn't want it to affect low level noobs who are leveling. 

 

And the figures I used, were from a character at the same level as the people in the party, 90+% of the time, the cleric healing is 200-230, making those heals even stronger. and The total even greater then the rough 150k / 20 sec I quoted... 

 

 

and you call them kids.. oh the irony

 

Actually, I edited that from moron, to give Miki a chance to stop being a troll. Unlike you who has officially reclaimed the title for himself. 

 

Edited by Feuer, 27 March 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[KatsuraKujo]

wouldn't what you said mean that it you count individual heals of a party heals possible in a single party and just sum it all up? cuz if you say it like that then yes, its pretty big but that's not what i mean.

 

What i mean is, the number of healed is fixed to all the players. And so everyone receives the same heal amount. if you mean total healed altogether then i can understand the numbers. cuz this takes to account people that are constantly being hit with x amount of damage and this damage is sometimes faster depending on the situations. So if the cleric is able to heal that but not entirely as much as how much the damage is caused, i'd say pretty ok. (Open up the picture a bit if i'm getting this wrong)

[Feuer]

Random example would be

 

5,112 Party Restore

6 total PT members

that means

Member #

1. 5,112
2. 
   
3. 5,112
4. 
   
5. 5,112
6. 
   
7. 5,112
8. 
   
9. 5,112
10. 
    
11. 5,112
12. 
    

Totaling: 30,672 Outgoing heal.

That's only 6 members your Max PT size. In a CD match it totals to 51,120 and in an AA match its 76,680 [Assuming you're actually lucky enough to have all the there in the Radius naturally]

 

So that 1 little meek 5k heal, just jumped to 30k when applied to a PT, 51k in CD and 77~k in AA. 

 

Also, the reason why you would apply it to all members is because you countering all the damage to all those targets. Not just 1 target. So the entire enemy team[or mobs in PvM] hitting your Attackers/Defender[s] and the Cleric[s] totals to a random number, that random number is what your AoE heals counter, and is supplemented by single target heals.

 

Edited by Feuer, 27 March 2015 - 05:22 AM.

[yamz]

I totally agree with this thread. Not just the full support cleric but the cleric itself including battle cleric. I had notice how easy im getting killed by a non buff champ. As an experience battle cleric, the block doesnt work at all. It still rely on def. But with its current def. Its really hard to tank. I can get killed by bourg with 3 hits even I wear the necessary gear for it.

[KatsuraKujo]

makes sense. But if you put it that why, then you should also consider how much people can hit and how many hitters can be consisted in a pt. (if pvm its different) Doing so means that you need to sum up the total damage caused estimatingly of course because that cannot be sure of, and looking at it to the heals. 

 

Its because you're summing up the heals to all members, means that you should also consider the same for an entire grp. If pvm wise, all the mobs hitting (if applied) if the number to heals its a negative amount then i don't see much of a problem. 

 

Say everyone can hit like 2-3k per sec, within 20s its (and it also assumes no crits) that's about 60k per person. And in CD its (if an FS is lucky to get into each grp) 9 times of that which makes it 540k, and so balance. maybe slightly more but its about there. And again, this is without crit numbers, some crits can cause twice-trice the damage amount in 1 shot.

 

If it refers to my post about it, the total healed all together x members (in this case 10 cuz i'm talking about CD) is 450,310 on my def gear. And of course most people would be smart enough to do so instead of being dumb to use cha set which would give more. So it is a negative amount as compared to the amount of damage caused

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 27 March 2015 - 06:42 AM.