100 replies to this topic

[angeltje]

If we were to remove a few buffs from cleric, let's say, 12 buffs to 6 buffs or 3 (i'm perfectly fine with it), then the cleric should be given a few offensive capabilities. It's defensive side can be upgraded at least. With a proper build, it can withstand a few hits from other players, in cases of PVP.

 

Why not a skill that deals damage and decreases the opponent's mdef, but also decreasing your mdef, but since you are a cleric, your mdef will still be superior. I know there's a skill that decreases mdef of an enemy, but to learn it is to sacrifice a useful skill for a cleric. 

 

Or to get the cleric's def moving a bit more, why not change Mystic Armor from 3 Def per x Intelligence to 3 Def per x Charm? We can go to as far as 3 Defense per 1 Charm, but it might move the cleric's defense from too less to too much.

 

what if those unique buffs who contain more then one buff at one become part of the normal skill tree?

that way we have this those req others want to keep but more sp left to spend in def passives?

that way FS cleric can survive just like war clerics .

btw i love your idea about the mystic armor!! thats really a good one i think .

[Holyfrost]

We could, yes, put the unique buffs into the normal skill tree, that's a great idea.

But maybe the current unique ones, can last 20 mins or 25 mins instead of the normal 15 mins, cause they are unique, and

they cost no SP, but they cost effort and zulie. I spent 3b to buy those buffs before they went all cheap.

[Filipito98]

We could, yes, put the unique buffs into the normal skill tree, that's a great idea.
But maybe the current unique ones, can last 20 mins or 25 mins instead of the normal 15 mins, cause they are unique, and
they cost no SP, but they cost effort and zulie. I spent 3b to buy those buffs before they went all cheap.

If u talking about that skill wich gives 2 buffs, same time as normal if is IM Ones, 30 mins

[angeltje]

@filipe holy ment it as suggestion. Put unqiue buffs also at skill three but make the uniqiue version with longer dura . That way cleric have lil more sp but still buffs!

[KatsuraKujo]

I'm also actually fine with taking away a few buffs, but i would also be speaking for myself as the other people in the game won't like it at all. The mystic armor idea is good, me likes =3 but then it would result in clerics going from a little tanky (pre-patch) to squishy (post-patch) to super tanky ( post fix *not likely*) which will result in the imbalance again

 

Just giving opinion. No offence to anyone meant

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 31 March 2015 - 02:06 AM.

[Holyfrost]

Yeah, clerics would get 3k def with just their cha set, excluding Dragon Skin.

 

But I guess if it were to be implemented, they would decrease it to 3 Def per 2 Cha or something similar. 

 

 

 

[Feuer]

I'm also actually fine with taking away a few buffs, but i would also be speaking for myself as the other people in the game won't like it at all. The mystic armor idea is good, me likes =3 but then it would result in clerics going from a little tanky (pre-patch) to squishy (post-patch) to super tanky ( post fix *not likely*) which will result in the imbalance again

 

Just giving opinion. No offence to anyone meant

 

Miki, you're not the first, and you're not alone in that opinion. 

[Filipito98]

instead changing the mystic armor to charm all about do same skill but different stats

example

Mystic Armor (Int) - 3 def per 1 int

Mystic Armor (Charm) - 3 def per x charm (the x still need to see betwen maybe 1 or 2)

but after dragon skin be lvl max soo u can only select one of those, because making u can select both, BC could also focus in charm for just a lil def making it with more def than the normal :\. or maybe doing other kind of stat idk. xd

[jacobpalmer]

I wish to remain sane so I haven't read the entire thread but just a little insight into how clerics used to be (pre-evo) was that we had dodge buff, crit buff, aspeed buff, mspeed buff and hp/mp buff as the other buffs were provided by soldiers (ap) hawkers (accuracy) so whilst clerics gave a large boost to all the players you needed a full group to have full buffs. I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea until we get some kind of decent sign up system for GA's similar to that of other popular mmo's which require so many supports (Clerics) so many tanks (Knights, dual raider?) and DPS (champ, katar etc etc) to sign up before it goes ahead.

 

One thing from the old days that I did like and few will probably remember was Gigantuian Skin (Spelling?) which reduced the cleric in size to that of a jelly bean and gave them something like 1000% dodge. 

 

I am not sure how you could incorporate this into both PvM and PvP but I would be interested to see how a plan of having hugely overpowered skills for defence / dodge on a cleric and your chance to kill them is between casting or when they mess up the timings, allowing clerics to be very strong if played correctly. 

 

I would also be a fan of more skills that heal over time like the recovery that gives hp recov 2 x your level. 

[Bendersmom]

That is what I was talking about Angel and Holy.  I did not mean that clerics would not have any buffs at all, but they should have only those that are supportive to the group and not a part of other classes buffs.  I like the uniqueness of Rose having buffs, etc.  but I think that to balance the game out better and make other classes actually get buffs and use their SP in other things then just AP, they could distribute the buffs better between classes and therefore allow the support cleric to gain some SP to put into some offensive skills.  The offensive skills would not allow the support cleric to be really strong like a BC but would allow them to at least farm a bit, protect themselves a little and do quests.  So instead of thinking about a full support cleric it would actually become a support cleric.  You would support the team but the team would not be completely worthless without you.  And if you wanted to solo farm you could build a bit differently and still farm and do quests.  It would give the clerics more options and still be able to be supportive in GA or w/e they like.  And it might make it easier to balance the classes.

 

Example - support cleric has heals, purify, defensive self skills like dragonskin, and 3-4 buffs like increase mp/hp, increase mdef, increase heal power, increase intelligence.  The knight would have increased def buff, increased hp buff or such, the Bourg and scout would have increased dex, etc. and the raider would have increased mspd.  Alone each buff would help the class themselves and in a party the buffs combined would help the team.  And I think buffs should just be party buffs, at least the team buffs should be.  But maybe each class could still have single, self buffs like mspd or other buffs that might help in solo farming.  Maybe something like the cleric having an increased AP for solo farming mobs (PVM only). 

 

I know it would be too much for the game of Rose to get rid of Buffs completely.  But I think that the game suffers from lack of team play and all classes being needed in groups.  That then leads to an over abundance of one particular class and others just a side project and it leads to bad behavior.  The game used to be more "friendly" for lack of a better word.  I think having to rely on each other again would be great, but also allow the cleric to do more things in game by being able to solo for some things.

 

Anyway, just an idea.

[Feuer]

If you want 'uniqueness' while keeping the buffs in ROSE, just turn them into arua's based on classes that you spend SP on. 

Example, if you want increased STR, you'll need a champion on your team with that passive buff/aura, and be within say 30m of the champ, soon as you enter/exit that radius the buff applies/removes. This would indeed do what bendersmom is going for, which is take reliance for buffs off the cleric to open up more room for defensive/offensive skills but also keep that 'unique' buff play style that angel and the other who feel similar are fighting to keep. 

 

No, I have no idea if proximity aura's are possible [at least not from a player source, summon yes, player no clue]. 

 

I forgot to mention the benefits of this type of mechanic -for those interested in slightly more details-

Spoiler

For one, no more needing to buff, they're just there if someone is close enough

Two, you can't debuff them. I know how annoyed people get at dispell, and the only reason I think it is a fine spell is because buffs %'s are a deciding factor in a fight 90% of the time.

[In this case I'd request to change all dispells into spell steals, taking a random buff from an enemy and applying it to yourself for a short time] 

You remove SOME of the buffs from clerics but let them keep

HP/MP, INT, Valkyrie, Angelic and Heal Power stacks

Then give 

Soldiers: STR

HP [slightly stronger then cleric] Def and maybe some HP recovery to Knight

AP and maybe some skill power to Champs

Hawkers: DEX

Scout: Move speed, Critical

Raider: Attack Speed, Dodge [could be the same as cleric]

Dealers: CON

Artisan: Accuracy, Pierce Defense

Bourge: AoE Radius? and Critical Damage? 

 

That way no one is competing for "only using best buffer", everyone has equal potential.

 

Also personal opinion, the MAX or even a 'cap' on a buff strength should be 10%. Like taking a critical rating and morphing it into a "buff rating". Same should be done with status down. There should be a limit, anything 10% is bearable, and if you're skilled able to be countered, anything 30%+ is harsh, and anything above 50-60% is broken. Absolutely debilitating. And having a buff/debuff cap would make it so oyu can reach your min/max goal and focus on your classes core aspect more without people trashing you for not having every,single,stat into charm, and every, single, slot in charm, and every, single,sub into charm. -which ruins class uniqueness, you're just a buff/debuff stack at that point-

Edited by Feuer, 31 March 2015 - 04:53 AM.

[Holyfrost]

1 Def per 1 Cha isn't bad, or just add a few more % to Dragon Skin.

 

Well, they do say it is "unbalanced", but I don't think that there is a vast gap between the classes and their abilities.

 

If clerics do get a few of their buffs taken away from them, and distribute buffs between the other 7 classes, then we could at least balance the game out a bit.

 

I really agree with adding offensive skills to a support cleric, like how they were before. These offensive skills can help lower leveled clerics to level up. Getting clerics to full support just encouraged them to resort to leveling with parties, instead of doing quests. I think I have read a suggestion about the quests which really give the player the experience points needed to level up. I usually ignore quests that require killing certain mobs, and then give you barely enough experience that isn't any way enough with the effort you have done. Put up rewards that are unique to a quest, rewards that can be useful while they level. 

 

I also want this "aura" effect to be somehow implemented, it's also a great idea to keep the classes all useful and balanced. I think if they did it with summons, maybe they can do it with players

Edited by Holyfrost, 31 March 2015 - 04:55 AM.

[angeltje]

@bendersmom i agree that cleric needs more sp and that the buffs arent great like they are. But i disagree that cleric should lose some buffs and give them to other classes. Why? Well cleric is the magical class which can heal and give everyone great boost. Just combine the buffs in other to save sp or the charm instead of int idea for some passives. But no give away or get rid of buffs i disagree on that lots, sorry i just think cleric should stay the most supportive and magical class. If you think diffrent fine but this is how i think and how other players i spoke with think.

Also you said there is lack of teamwork. Then your idea doesnt work since you still need all buffs in order to boost enough for several things. So then you need all classes and in like dgn there can be only 5 members. Seems kinda harsh to workout without good ga system and without teamwork.

Edited by Zurn, 31 March 2015 - 11:42 AM.

[Feuer]

Dungeon is easily done with very few buffs  

[angeltje]

Just an example that you still need teamwork otherwise that move away buffs has no valid point since teamwork still has a lack of it.

[Filipito98]

honestly i think i understand what bendersmom is saying, like he wanna try to make not only cleric useful but also others classes useful. what he tried to say is, if him idea was implemented, for get like the perfect team for CD would need all classes, soo not only cleric would give bonus to the others players/classes but also the classes would give bonus and together everyone working as teamwork with them role, but i do found a disadvantage, implementing that idea will make farming/pvm more difficult wich means maybe for also get a gd solo char would need to make like all classes because cleric dont have all the buffs wich can be difficult to the player, resuming, applying that will make solo farm almost impossible but would make party/teamwork farm more famous (disadvantage of party/teamwork farm, players would be greedys and some wouldn't even have time for play with them due businesses/school). i do like the idea in making all classes usefull again and have a CD/PvP team with all the classes, but for me it would affect me maybe in my solo farm wich im already preparing to do (lvling up my bourg) u.u.

 

@Holyforst add more % in dragonskin without reduce damage in BC will make them more op (4th suggestion). also maybe instead 1 def per 1 charm maybe 2 def is already enough because we do want to make clerics have more def and can get a better teamwork (depends) with others. giving 1 def per charm is like u giving only 500/600 def with 500/600 charm . but who knows if might works.

 

(5 mins after do this text up here)

i check feuer post about the classes roles wich i got in a total like, all classes already have roles wich can make like buffs be repeatable. btw isnt need to remove the angelic buff because that buff will affect all stats wich any class cant get that.

about add physical/magical pierce well idk ..... dunno if the damage will be more than what is nw :\

 

[Feuer]

bendersmom is a she, just so you know. 

[Filipito98]

bendersmom is a she, just so you know. 

.....

gomene (sry) bendersmom Q^Q

[Bendersmom]

Lol no worries.  I am not sure about the aura buffs since some classes (scout, raider, bourg) are meant to play outside of the group.  But it is an interesting idea.

 

Actually if each class had their main stats buff like knights with def (party buff) and AP (single buff for mobs) then farming would not be hard for them alone or with a group.  What I was saying is distribute the buffs to the appropriate class.  The buffs do not have to be thought of as magical based, so not just from clerics.  Think of them as a training based skill instead.  As the skill is upgraded think about it that the character has trained enough to make it possible for others to benefit from their training.  Give the scout a party dexterity buff - which would indicate that he has trained so much on accuracy that he "shares" that training with the others in his party.  I think giving all classes, cleric included, a good mix of buffs that make sense for their class to "share" as party buffs and also self buffs to help them get some def or offensive skills would distribute the buffs nicely, make all classes important in a party or group like for CD, but if one class is not present it will not kill the group.  Right now if one side does not have a FS cleric then they just lose.  If in my example one side doesn't have a scout, then the groups acc may be down a bit but they can still fight, where the other side may not have a knight so their def might be down a bit as a group but they can still fight.  Obviously a lot of thought would have to go into what classes get what but if we could give each class a PVM AP buff that would help with farming and quests, even for clerics (as long as they got one or two offensive skills from saving SP by not having as many buffs).  

 

That would still leave the cleric as mostly supportive, just not full support.  We would still have heals (and I really like heals over time), purify, fires, mute, etc.

[Feuer]

Whenever i think of aura's or shared effects [that aren't magical] I think of it similar to BM, they've trained themselves proficiently enough, that they can "direct" their team mates what to do mid combat, and the team benefits from that combat instruction. Which is also lined up with why they're not huge effects, just moderates enhancements.

 

@Mom, 30m is shorter then i thought after I thought about the range some classes have. Perhaps the aruas have a duration of 15-30 seconds [and refresh when inside 30m again] this way the ranged chars could duck in get buffs, hit targets and back out/kite again with the buffs for a short time. That, or just increase the radius of the proximity buff to something like 45m then everyone even ranged would have it. 

[KatsuraKujo]

Now we're getting somewhere~ Nice ideas everywhere. Although there's so many new ideas as to how to make the game balance while trying to also make the every class useful will be a serious challenge because of how much stuff we actually have to take account into. (Pity Leo   ) I like the aura idea as it does really make it unique as to how much people can benefit from it as well as the AP self buff idea for all classes for PvM only. 

 

I'm not very sure about the "sharing" kind of thing but i'll get to it eventually, and it really does seem to look really nice to balance things out. 

 

and also @angel if the buffs were decreased or taken away (not likely cuz it could cause rage among the community which will result in less players) then the other classes will HAVE to work as a team. Before the update, i had an experience in CD where they just take my buffs and right after run ahead of the team without waiting for me. And i ended dying halfway trip to the crystal. But, if buffs were spread across all class and the "aura" radius was implemented, then the team will HAVE to follow in a group to allow protection of the entire group, etc. So teamwork WILL exist.

 

I likes them ideas instead of random arguing. Y U PEOPLE NO DO THIS BEFORE?!?! THIS IS AWESOME >w<)b    

Edited by KatsuraKujo, 31 March 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Feuer]

Because some people would rather troll out of spite then take a calm breathe and think. Glad to see others psoting ideas myself. 

[jacobpalmer]

Very very very old clip which shows the cleric skill I mentioned but may also bring back memories for some old players;

 

[angeltje]

i still disagree with the take away buffs from cleric idea

but well just take away the thing that makes cleric special ect

[Feuer]

Don't forget, there are 2 aspects that make the cleric unique, not just one. No other class is capable of healing. 

Edited by Feuer, 31 March 2015 - 10:30 AM.