219 replies to this topic

[Popcorn]

One more time, leave summoners alone.

 

Everyone is free to say what their want to say as long as it follows the forum rules. You've stated your point before, there is no need do this again. This is a discussion thread about Twins, Summoners and Invokers, and as you can see, there are many problems with summoners within the community - especially in PvP. This topic is a request for community feedback and opinions and to be honest your opinion is only one of all the opinions collected in this thread. 

At this point no decision is made so far, we're still collecting feedback, but however your "feedback" does not contribute anything sadly. And if we decide to re-balance the summoner based on the communities opinion, we will do so. 

 

However, at this point I want to thank everyone for the great feedback, for the help and for the clean discussion.

As for the 6* cards, this is not the right place to discuss about them, because this topic is set up to collect feedback for the named classes.

 

Feel free to start another topic regarding this and can we please get back to topic? Thank you.

[Tirbing]

Everyone is free to say what their want to say as long as it follows the forum rules. You've stated your point before, there is no need do this again. This is a discussion thread about Twins, Summoners and Invokers, and as you can see, there are many problems with summoners within the community - especially in PvP. This topic is a request for community feedback and opinions and to be honest your opinion is only one of all the opinions collected in this thread. 

At this point no decision is made so far, we're still collecting feedback, but however your "feedback" does not contribute anything sadly. And if we decide to re-balance the summoner based on the communities opinion, we will do so. 

 

However, at this point I want to thank everyone for the great feedback, for the help and for the clean discussion.

As for the 6* cards, this is not the right place to discuss about them, because this topic is set up to collect feedback for the named classes.

 

Feel free to start another topic regarding this and can we please get back to topic? Thank you.

well if they do re-balance the summoner, i will take my money back. my visa black card has a 6 months chargeback.

[Homurasan]

So, yeah, as for Summoners. What makes you think they don't need any kind of balance improvements ?

[Popcorn]

So, yeah, as for Summoners. What makes you think they don't need any kind of balance improvements ?

 

Good point. Guys, keep the answers on topic and clean please. Thank you.

[ohsnap]

 

 

Look around you the community comes from foreign old closed dragonica/saga, the game itself needs new players not hardcore players. The game's RNG ruins a newcomer's experience cause elitists that want to keep the endgame meta unbalanced.

 

My bad i got salty Ignore the demolition jab's , the quest is to make the items easier to obtain its unjustified that the 6*'s should be harder to obtain than let's say something you pay for such as 15*'s cerberus Even then getting near 20k resist is questionable with 6*'s. especially with the behaviour of dual resists.

You can talk all you about my bias but this thread isn't about destroyer and not to mention destroyer can neither strafe nor home in on enemies. the 400% CD and 40% crit is justified because said class is a cannon class. tyvm.

 

Endgame meta is only there to begin with because there are actually hardcore players willing to put the time and money to the game. Provided that ds does have a low population there are still foreign players that actually want to reach that endgame meta and work just as hard as the ones that have reached the end game meta. Players that actually stay with the game and consistently farming are surpassing,going beyond and setting newer metas. From the beginning to now every update has been spoonfeeding the newcomers can you even recall a time where there was no f7 available, insurance was only 5 by the bulk, not to mention the many events that have taken place you see ppl running around with +20s more than it had use to. It's not even difficult to reach the endgame meta with this much spoonfeeding like it had use to. There's probably 15 updates dedicated to newcomers to make things easier for every 1 update dedicated to endgamers. Like I said these hardcore players grinding out through this terrible RNG get what they deserve and the ones quitting well it's their fault for lacking the mentality to reach higher heights. Also it's not because the elitists want to keep the endgame unbalanced but it's the fact that they went through more difficult means to reach the endgame while new updates and events make reaching endgame much easier to reach for newcomers and they still complain about the complications of getting to it when older players have experienced far worse. If their mindset is how they are ever going to beat or catch up then it's the completely wrong idea and they should be farming as much as the endgame meta requires it to be. You can't really blame the game's RNG when there are people out there that actually went through with it.

 

To sum it up it's already easy to reach the end game meta its the player's mentality that's preventing him/her from reaching it. Making things easier would just make the game even worse than it already is. 

Edited by ohsnap, 03 June 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[Homurasan]

@ ohsnap : Some people went through wars, human experiments, killing to not be killed, ilnesses so fearsome you'd throw up just hearing about their effects on both mind and body.

Does that mean that we shouldn't do anything in order to avoid anyone else to suffer from these afflictions ? Certainly not.

 

Now then. Summoners / Invokers / Twin fighters aren't far too much of a plague for WP to handle their case, so please stay focused. Talking about balance, extend your senses and this kind of thing.

[Tirbing]

First, their summons are weak and without their summons, they can't lock effectively due to the cast time. Second, spirit counterattack doesnt work against classes other than mages and warriors. Third, without a lot of skill points, this class is a bit useless because of the huge skill tree. Also, summons do not always disrupt the opponents, they can mess up your own combo. I've tried pvp-ing against end game invoker, destroyer, overlord and sorcerer and i did not have a 100% winrate, probably less than 50%. To sum it all up, its the skill and the number of 6* cards that matter, not the class.

[noxis]

@ ohsnap : Some people went through wars, human experiments, killing to not be killed, ilnesses so fearsome you'd throw up just hearing about their effects on both mind and body.

Does that mean that we shouldn't do anything in order to avoid anyone else to suffer from these afflictions ? Certainly not.

 

 

i find these comparisons distasteful. war is completely different from a game. i'm a bit of a history buff myself, but it has no place in this discussion. i will defend your right to freely talk about it if you so please, but keep in mind that both worlds are leagues a part. analogies tend to have a hit and miss effect.

 

ohsnap does have a point taking into consideration peoples feelings on the matter. though i don't harbor any such things myself and i have been element farming for more than 3 years, but i can't base that simply on my own personal opinions.

[ohsnap]

@ ohsnap : Some people went through wars, human experiments, killing to not be killed, ilnesses so fearsome you'd throw up just hearing about their effects on both mind and body.

Does that mean that we shouldn't do anything in order to avoid anyone else to suffer from these afflictions ? Certainly not.

 

Now then. Summoners / Invokers / Twin fighters aren't far too much of a plague for WP to handle their case, so please stay focused. Talking about balance, extend your senses and this kind of thing.

so your justifications for ppl not putting the effort to stacking their characters to what we consider as the "end game meta" in a mmorpg is comparing it to finding solutions to mankind's sufferings?

Edited by ohsnap, 03 June 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[THQAiza]

Endgame meta is only there to begin with because there are actually hardcore players willing to put the time and money to the game. Provided that ds does have a low population there are still foreign players that actually want to reach that endgame meta and work just as hard as the ones that have reached the end game meta. Players that actually stay with the game and consistently farming are surpassing,going beyond and setting newer metas. From the beginning to now every update has been spoonfeeding the newcomers can you even recall a time where there was no f7 available, insurance was only 5 by the bulk, not to mention the many events that have taken place you see ppl running around with +20s more than it had use to. It's not even difficult to reach the endgame meta with this much spoonfeeding like it had use to. There's probably 15 updates dedicated to newcomers to make things easier for every 1 update dedicated to endgamers. Like I said these hardcore players grinding out through this terrible RNG get what they deserve and the ones quitting well it's their fault for lacking the mentality to reach higher heights. Also it's not because the elitists want to keep the endgame unbalanced but it's the fact that they went through more difficult means to reach the endgame while new updates and events make reaching endgame much easier to reach for newcomers and they still complain about the complications of getting to it when older players have experienced far worse. If their mindset is how they are ever going to beat or catch up then it's the completely wrong idea and they should be farming as much as the endgame meta requires it to be. You can't really blame the game's RNG when there are people out there that actually went through with it.

 

To sum it up it's already easy to reach the end game meta its the player's mentality that's preventing him/her from reaching it. Making things easier would just make the game even worse than it already is. 

I totally agree with this. People are just being lazy and wants everything the easy way. I know this is a thread about balancing summoners, invokers, and twin, so here's my thoughts. Why don't the producer work on something with the elements because i am almost 99% sure regardless of what changes they make to these classes will not change much of anything due to elements. Sure you can change twin's weaves, summoner's summons, invoker's magnets, but with enough elements, YOU don't need skills to win. One catch and you're done is what I'm saying. I am happy to see the producer trying to make changes because a "certain class" is OP, but these classes have always been that way. We asked for changes back then, none was answered. So we lived with it, and eventually, we found ways to counter and fought back. Why don't you guys remove elements and see how weak invokers/summoners are? They'll just become a tank/supporter. I have no comment on twins, although I already fought it so many times to see the cons on them. 

[Fliederduft78]

Guys, can we please get back on topic?

 

 

Twin, Summoner, Invoker and their skills and our opinion regarding them. I think it is important to find our way back on topic. So the WP staff can focus on what the topic originally is about.

Thank you.

 

[5143121023173906760]

@ ohsnap : Some people went through wars, human experiments, killing to not be killed, ilnesses so fearsome you'd throw up just hearing about their effects on both mind and body.
Does that mean that we shouldn't do anything in order to avoid anyone else to suffer from these afflictions ? Certainly not.

Now then. Summoners / Invokers / Twin fighters aren't far too much of a plague for WP to handle their case, so please stay focused. Talking about balance, extend your senses and this kind of thing.

When anyone talks about real-life in a heroic fantasy game, this might be always bad.

Guys, can we please get back on topic?



Twin, Summoner, Invoker and their skills and our opinion regarding them. I think it is important to find our way back on topic. So the WP staff can focus on what the topic originally is about.
Thank you.

Well, what is making sumonner op is a little part because of his buffes (Passive and Bird) they are giving HUGE advantage for farming against other players.

Edited by 5143121023173906760, 03 June 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Homurasan]

I always am a bit extreme when comparing things, because I'm used to talking to dense people*. Also I only replied to a very short part of your message, so I can guess my point wasn't that clear. Anyway !

 

I believe Summoners wouldn't become anything like a support or tank class with the high damage spells they have. I mean they seem to be designed to be cast spells, so they would need to be especially powerful in order to compensate for this time during which you can't do anything except wait for your skill to effectively be cast. Now with a cast time reduction buff this sounds pretty powerful.

 

 

*Not talking about any of you, I swear.

[sean718]

I totally agree with this. People are just being lazy and wants everything the easy way. I know this is a thread about balancing summoners, invokers, and twin, so here's my thoughts. Why don't the producer work on something with the elements because i am almost 99% sure regardless of what changes they make to these classes will not change much of anything due to elements. Sure you can change twin's weaves, summoner's summons, invoker's magnets, but with enough elements, YOU don't need skills to win. One catch and you're done is what I'm saying. I am happy to see the producer trying to make changes because a "certain class" is OP, but these classes have always been that way. We asked for changes back then, none was answered. So we lived with it, and eventually, we found ways to counter and fought back. Why don't you guys remove elements and see how weak invokers/summoners are? They'll just become a tank/supporter. I have no comment on twins, although I already fought it so many times to see the cons on them. 

 

If you think I'm immortal now, wait until this happens. I will never die even if heals get nerfed. 

Same with sorcs and any class that stacks pdef/mdef and health.

 

-

 

The thing with change is that it is a chain effect.

 

Change this one thing, you may have to change another. The key is finding the correct things to change.

 

For summoners, Spirit Counter is one of them.

 

For Twins, Weave skills cool down and Ghost Fighter reaching you from across the map.

 

Those are undeniably the skills that should be focused on being fixed. The rest will come into discussion once these are addressed. 

Edited by sean718, 03 June 2015 - 12:35 PM.

[THQAiza]

Have you played summoners Homura?

[Homurasan]

I have back on the french server. Why do you ask ?

[Tirbing]

Have you played summoners Homura?

+1.

[ivey558]

One more time, leave summoners alone.

 

[Agitodesu]

I do not understand how this is working out at all. We are trying to balance class because of how they are stronger than certain classes. Now are we talking about non-stacked, stacked,or fully stacked? - And we are trying to do 3 if not 4(PvE) at once.

They are certainly different from each other and we are arguing mainly on why they are strong with elements.

Any class would be decent or strong with 6* cards.(not so sure about sorcerors but they are quite fat)

 

They are op because of time and effort spent by the ones who are dedicated enough to make their character stronger than others. Now if someone who barges into a conversation on why that class should be shot by Nerf gun because of damage, and they themselves don't know what they are talking about should first try stacking resist, and damage and see if they live longer than those who don't. I am pretty sure if a person walking in with secmathian gear or even a PoS set without well enough resists gets demolished by someone with a 6* and point out that class is really op doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

1 thing that is apparent is that faster dps classes like invoker and summoners can abuse elements well enough to be a debate.

I think the producers should maybe play around with the classes themselves and mix/match resist/atk and see how classes play out. But that's not an option

 

Maybe lowering total element damage put into the shots by a certain % or flat amount per hit would help, and will not effect PvE gameplay as hard as nerfing total magic atk.

 

I have made at least played through 4 characters of invokers and they do lack damage in pve sometimes. Going through underground graveyard is a pain spamming x entirely. even with a +5 weapon and I am certainly not going to +20 a weapon to do a dungeon I will level past within a day.(Exagerating +20 but +5 should be whats possible without spending a handful of gold on insurance scrolls and for that level it's not very easy to earn that amount of gold for new players)

 

Now in pvp the problem is when I walk up to someone press x a couple times and they die is probably a problem.

 

 

And for Twins, element is not a heated topic so it is mainly the skills. 

 

I do not use weave often in pve or pvp since the movement speed buff alone can let you dodge most skills that are not hit on cast.

Weave in my opinion should be limited to only 1 every few seconds. Not removed entirely or changed into a higher cooldown.

We should work on a class step by step instead of giant strides.

Why not increase cooldown by a couple seconds or limiting to 1 every 4-5 seconds

Instead of demolishing a skill in general to having have a long cooldown or remove it completely.

 

1 last thing, I try to involve pve into my suggestions because a lot of people complain about pve.

 

Edited by Agitodesu, 03 June 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[Agitodesu]

zzz apparently pressing tab makes me post stuff

Edited by Agitodesu, 03 June 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[sean718]

your suggestion will instantly kill players who have multiple hitting skills. 

 

some things to remember:

 

spirit counter effect is applied to summons only not the summoner.

summons have virtually no defense/resistances. the damage they take is similar to mob damage.

spirit counter works on a per hit basis, this applies to multiple hitting skills.

this is not a skill meant for pve use.

 

a more reasonable suggestion based on editable values:

 

level 1: 10% chance to reflect 10% damage

level 5: 15% chance to reflect 10% damage

 

 

 

 

client sided and dependent on the consistency of server=client communication of all parties involved. 

 

This is what makes the reflect damage so high. The fact that the summons reflect a % of the damage they receive when they're not much different than a normal mob in the damage they take. 

[ohsnap]

A thing to note is that a lot of these balance/suggestions and people complaining are coming from people who only pve, who only made classes for trials rather than actually fully mastering them, people who are bias and in denial, and only based on pvp experiences against these these classes. A class balance thread doesn't really work out without set criterias these three classes hit large power spikes with high element damage but a lot of balances and suggestions are made without this factor. So if a suggestion is made please consider whether it fills out a criteria that we should focus on. Classifying skills in PVP and in PVE or with or without element damage involved is a huge difference. When you guys say that this thread is a thread about balancing these three classes and taking the element talks elsewhere consider that elements is actually a huge part of why these classes are excelling so well right now. An end game summoner or fighter with all the elements and resist as well as +20s beats out an end game overlord or ninja with the same amount of gears. However without element in the factor there may actually be a good fighting chance between these match ups. 

 

All being said we need a certain criteria to follow for these balances: whether these classes are end game or not, we need non-bias views from ppl with real experiences with the classes to state any claims, and I feel the talks about elements is a significant factor and is part of the bigger picture into balancing these classes. If you're a pve enthusiast that's great and all but it's best if you understand the best of both worlds before you make blind criticisms or suggestions because trust me anyone who's great in pvp probably knows a thing or two about the pve aspect of the class they're just too lazy to grind mobs. 

[TinhLinhPC]

Hi, I have some idea
Summoner : Smart Shot no longer effect Atk Speed(Chain Combo and Non Chain combo are not effect Atk Speed .Smart Shot like Diffusion Cannon but Invoker dame only by spam X , Summoner dame by Skill ,Pet , and Spam X :| .Summoner is OP .Please nerf Smart Shot.
Twin:Reduce Skill Point Cost ,Remove :Breath Control because this skill made Twin Block all times.Increase Dame of Organge skill (Main Character),100% Twin player only use Green Skill :|.And Please make Twin can equip hat ,armor ,weapon like Main Character #10
Thanks for read.So my bad English

[flubsy]

Summoner: decrease the damage reflect values

Twins: Increase cool down of weaving/power weaving to 30 seconds like they did with burrow/shadow walk with ninja

Invoker: Increase cool down or decrease status duration for their status debuff/freeze

 

I think this is the simplest way to nerf these 3 classes from God-like status to well they'll probably still be God-Like but at least it won't be impossible to win status.

 

 

[Elijazz]

I do not understand how this is working out at all. We are trying to balance class because of how they are stronger than certain classes. Now are we talking about non-stacked, stacked,or fully stacked? - And we are trying to do 3 if not 4(PvE) at once.

They are certainly different from each other and we are arguing mainly on why they are strong with elements.

Any class would be decent or strong with 6* cards.(not so sure about sorcerors but they are quite fat)

 

They are op because of time and effort spent by the ones who are dedicated enough to make their character stronger than others. Now if someone who barges into a conversation on why that class should be shot by Nerf gun because of damage, and they themselves don't know what they are talking about should first try stacking resist, and damage and see if they live longer than those who don't. I am pretty sure if a person walking in with secmathian gear or even a PoS set without well enough resists gets demolished by someone with a 6* and point out that class is really op doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

~nuff said.