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[We need Feedback] Class Balancing - Twins - Summoners - Invoker


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#151 StormHaven

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 07:05 AM

people don't seem to get, Invokers, Fighters and Summoners were godtier prior to elements ever existing in unrestricted PvP. They just have skill kits that are leave all 3 of them with next to no weaknesses.

 

Elements itself is a whole 'nother issue by itself. It's overly dominate in PvP and has next to no effect in PvE which is opposite of it's original intentions.


Edited by StormHaven, 01 July 2015 - 07:08 AM.

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#152 Rainnowx

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 11:32 AM

 

Elements itself is a whole 'nother issue by itself. It's overly dominate in PvP and has next to no effect in PvE which is opposite of it's original intentions.

 

Aww... Here's the first answer/opinion to a question that stayed in my mind before writing wrong lines in another topic.

I avoided a huge miss, thanks to you XD


Edited by Rainnowx, 01 July 2015 - 11:32 AM.

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#153 tZerot

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 09:35 PM

X-spam is the only real issue I can think of for mages (I'm sure there's more of course), and summoner and twin classes are so OP that I wouldn't even know where to begin as far as balancing is concerned, but lowering the twin's successful block rate during weaving would be a place to start.


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#154 flubsy

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 12:36 AM

Like I said before, just restricting twin's Weaving and summoner's Revenge in pvp like they did with Ninja burrow, Paladin barricade is the first step.  I think it makes the most sense.


Edited by flubsy, 16 July 2015 - 12:37 AM.

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#155 Agitodesu

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 02:14 PM

I have now seen the true powers of summoners revenge.

With Sorcerers I die instantly and with overlords If I land a critical strike on a summon my dear lord I take 100,000 damage back leaving me with 1k-5k hp left and hope another revenge doesnt hit me back finishing me off  or you know the other 100 homing balls they shoot that do a lot of damage.


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#156 Darkthed

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 03:40 PM

Twin i think if u fix the block u should make them more def because they weak with health and weaving should more 0.5s for the skill

invoker health, magnet and low health should be more time and ice fix them range


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#157 Coolsam

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 06:29 PM

So has there ever been any results of this? Any confirmations? Any expected dates? Or did you guys screw this up like every PvP balance thread?


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#158 Popcorn

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 11:01 PM

So has there ever been any results of this? Any confirmations? Any expected dates? Or did you guys screw this up like every PvP balance thread?

 

Balancing PvP is not easy. At the moment we have some "problems", we are limited to the following possibilities the time being:

 

- increasing/decreasing cooldowns (this affects PvE too, so only not PvE breaking changes are wanted by us)

- blocking complete skills from using in BSQ/EW

 

Touching the skills in any other way (nerf) would affect PvE in the exact same way and changing skills by a debuff is not possible until we're able to change the client. Some of the "bad" nerf examples were: Final Decision, the shared cooldown between CrossCut and SpearJab

We don't want such things happening again.

 

We are also aware, that there are problems with the implementation of the element system, but we can't change anything without changing the client in this case. 

 

So far we are thinking about following:

 

- Blocking Rebound (Twin) from BSQ/EW 

- Increasing the cooldown of Magnet (Invoker) by 3 seconds (we think this has no big impact to PvE)

- Blocking PowerWeave (Twin) from BSQ/EW

- Increasing the cooldown of Smart Shot (Summoner), so the cooldown is at least the same as the duration and setting casting time to instant

- Blocking Instant Heal (Monk) from BSQ/EW (but keeping all other heal skills)

- Increasing the cooldown to 120 seconds of Emergency Exit (Priest) or blocking it from BSQ/EW

- Blocking Exit (Bandit) from BSQ/EW because Shadow Walk and Burrow are blocked in PvP too

 

All these changes are not carved in stone yet. Opinions? We know especially the players of the affected classes may start to rage, but please see it from the point of view of the other classes which have no chance against some of these skills.


Edited by Popcorn, 06 September 2015 - 01:03 AM.

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#159 TheCristall

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 12:44 AM


- Blocking Rebound (Twin) from BSQ/EW 

- Blocking Resurrection (Monk) from BSQ/EW

- Increasing the cooldown of Magnet (Invoker) by 3 seconds (we think this has no big impact to PvE)

- Increasing the cooldown of Smart Shot (Summoner), so the cooldown is at least the same as the duration

- Increasing the cooldown to 120 seconds of Emergency Exit (Priest) or blocking it from BSQ/EW

 

-block rebound as long its possible to cancel this skill

-no point in blocking resurrection because you cant use it in either bsq nor ew

-increasing smat shots cooldown has no point at all since everybody i know cancel this skill and wont get any cooldown at all

to prevent prople from canceling, you need to decrease the cast time to instant

-dont increase cd of emergency exit, its usefull for PVE but not with that much cd, block it if you want

 

my opinion from a not so active pvp player


Edited by TheCristall, 06 September 2015 - 12:48 AM.

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#160 Popcorn

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 12:58 AM

-block rebound as long its possible to cancel this skill


What do you mean with "cancel this skill"?
 

-no point in blocking resurrection because you cant use it in either bsq nor ew

 

We weren't sure of this. So you're right, blocking is not needed then.

That's why everything takes a bit of time - there is no clue that this skill already can't be used in BSQ/EW.

 


Edited by Popcorn, 06 September 2015 - 01:00 AM.

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#161 TheCristall

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 03:56 AM

What do you mean with "cancel this skill"?

 

a lot skill in this game are able to be canceled (there are 2 types of canceling)

 

1st type:

rebound, at light speed, smart shot and a ton of other skills (nearly all drakan skill with cast time) have this glitch because the buff they cast is affected before the cast time bar is full and will trigger the cooldown, so if you press jump or anything else, you cancel the cast time bar so that the skill dont get any cooldown, but you already got the buff.

i dont know if spells of humans have this glitch too.

 

this could be "fixed" by making most spells of drakans to instant cast, but thats kind of pushing them even more than nerf them

 

2nd type:

some skills are able to be stopped while the animation is still running to be able to cast/move a new skill earlier

its very hard and only few people know how to do it right because trying this only works with the right timing but i know that magnet, crosscut and at least some other skills have this glitch.

 

 

 

to resurrection:

in BSQ players dont count as in a group and so they cant be revived

in EW i never tried but the player was dead, thats not like rebound, which saves the player just before he's dying so there will be no kill and all stuff related to killing sb in EW/BSQ


Edited by TheCristall, 06 September 2015 - 04:00 AM.

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#162 Precrush

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 03:59 AM

Well blocking instant heal would make it harder to play monks in the way I think they were intended to be played, as supports and debuffers. Most balance changes would require changes to the skills themselves.

 

Maybe you could block double shot in pvp and force people to use diffusion cannon which I think is a bit weaker, all though I'm not sure.

 

I seem to remember something about invokers auto attacks getting weaker if you spammed it in pvp being in place before, think that would be THE way to fix them but guess elements and you not being able to change much messes that up.

 

 

 

 


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#163 sean718

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 04:15 AM

 

Balancing PvP is not easy. At the moment we have some "problems", we are limited to the following possibilities the time being:

 

- increasing/decreasing cooldowns (this affects PvE too, so only not PvE breaking changes are wanted by us)

- blocking complete skills from using in BSQ/EW

 

Touching the skills in any other way (nerf) would affect PvE in the exact same way and changing skills by a debuff is not possible until we're able to change the client. Some of the "bad" nerf examples were: Final Decision, the shared cooldown between CrossCut and SpearJab

We don't want such things happening again.

 

We are also aware, that there are problems with the implementation of the element system, but we can't change anything without changing the client in this case. 

 

So far we are thinking about following:

 

- Blocking Rebound (Twin) from BSQ/EW 

- Increasing the cooldown of Magnet (Invoker) by 3 seconds (we think this has no big impact to PvE)

- Blocking PowerWeave (Twin) from BSQ/EW

- Increasing the cooldown of Smart Shot (Summoner), so the cooldown is at least the same as the duration and setting casting time to instant

- Blocking Instant Heal (Monk) from BSQ/EW (but keeping all other heal skills)

- Increasing the cooldown to 120 seconds of Emergency Exit (Priest) or blocking it from BSQ/EW

- Blocking Exit (Bandit) from BSQ/EW because Shadow Walk and Burrow are blocked in PvP too

 

All these changes are not carved in stone yet. Opinions? We know especially the players of the affected classes may start to rage, but please see it from the point of view of the other classes which have no chance against some of these skills.

 

Exit, as it stands is not overpowered. It simply allows the player to position their character to an advantageous position. I don't see being used often in pvp since it has it's trade offs.

Magnet cooldown increase. Please do.

Instant heal being removed from PvP? I approve of it. The idea behind nerfing it is obvious. It heals massive amounts of HP to a group instantly. Very useful for EW and solo purposes in BSQ. So long as other heals don't get dramatically nerfed, I can see majority of the PvP community looking at it approvingly. This skill is extremely interruptible though, just for informations sake. *I wasn't thinking broadly enough. I think reducing the heal effect would be a better option. Let it heal, at it's maximum level, only 30% Of the caster's maximum HP.

Emergency exit cooldown or removal. The current cooldown for this skill is fine right now, to me, that isn't the problem whether its an increase or decrease hardly makes a difference since it really is a skill thats meant to be used opportunely. My problem with the skill is that it affects everyone as a group within its circle rendering them temporarily immortal from damage. Here lies the problem. Some skills proc stuns or freezes based on damage. Wrath of lightning, blizzard, are some examples. When EE is activated those skills cannot activate since EE makes whoever is in the casters group immune to damage, which makes them immune to those skills. The tradeoff? EE barrier shield effect only activates when the barrier itself orbits the players. This takes 1 second to activate after the initial area of coverage is displayed. That means the priest is still susceptible to stuns, freezes, sleep, etc. Which will cut down time on EE since the priest is immobile. The opponent can still run away and wait for the effect to pass. This is harder to apply in group pvp because any teammate can simply jump on the sphere and help out the priest. I honestly don't see its removal in PvP as a bad thing, others might vehemently disagree with me when i say that since priests are technically a ground locked class. An increase in cooldown would't hurt but I would vote for more than 120 seconds. Maybe 180 seconds. If a removal from PvP does come into the equation more favorably than a cooldown increase then I suggest a trial run and see how the community reacts to it.

Smart shot cooldown. You have the right idea.

Rebound removal from PvP. I can agree but keep reading. I personally don't use it much since I find it confusing for my opponents to react to. It is a frustrating skill to fight against. But any decent PvPer would expect it to be active at all times. Another potential option that I favor more than its removal is to make it instant cast with a long cooldown and less HP restoration upon its activation. This would prevent skill canceling abuse and would make it a skill that's used more intelligently.

Power weave removal. My stance on skill removals from PvP isn't cut and dry. I'm not a fan of limiting the potential of classes unless there would be no other way to do it. Both weave skills can be fixed by increased cooldowns. I would prefer a substantial cooldown increase over a removal.

There are other skills that need to be fixed that I'll further go through when time permits.

I really would like to see the verdicts and implementations of skills that have come to a conclusion at an expedited rate.

Creating a panel of volunteers for a PvP balance project and supplying a test server would help.


Edited by sean718, 06 September 2015 - 04:40 AM.

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#164 checksome

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 04:39 AM

Balancing PvP is not easy. At the moment we have some "problems", we are limited to the following possibilities the time being:

 

- increasing/decreasing cooldowns (this affects PvE too, so only not PvE breaking changes are wanted by us)

- blocking complete skills from using in BSQ/EW

 

Touching the skills in any other way (nerf) would affect PvE in the exact same way and changing skills by a debuff is not possible until we're able to change the client. Some of the "bad" nerf examples were: Final Decision, the shared cooldown between CrossCut and SpearJab

We don't want such things happening again.

 

We are also aware, that there are problems with the implementation of the element system, but we can't change anything without changing the client in this case. 

 

So far we are thinking about following:

 

- Blocking Rebound (Twin) from BSQ/EW 

- Increasing the cooldown of Magnet (Invoker) by 3 seconds (we think this has no big impact to PvE)

- Blocking PowerWeave (Twin) from BSQ/EW

- Increasing the cooldown of Smart Shot (Summoner), so the cooldown is at least the same as the duration and setting casting time to instant

- Blocking Instant Heal (Monk) from BSQ/EW (but keeping all other heal skills)

- Increasing the cooldown to 120 seconds of Emergency Exit (Priest) or blocking it from BSQ/EW

- Blocking Exit (Bandit) from BSQ/EW because Shadow Walk and Burrow are blocked in PvP too

 

All these changes are not carved in stone yet. Opinions? We know especially the players of the affected classes may start to rage, but please see it from the point of view of the other classes which have no chance against some of these skills.

 

 

- Increasing the cooldown of Magnet (Invoker) by 3 seconds (we think this has no big impact to PvE) - good idea

- Increasing the cooldown of Smart Shot (Summoner), so the cooldown is at least the same as the duration and setting casting time to instant - good idea.

- Blocking Instant Heal (Monk) from BSQ/EW (but keeping all other heal skills) - good idea.

- Increasing the cooldown to 120 seconds of Emergency Exit (Priest) or blocking it from BSQ/EW - better block this skill in pvp , bsq , ew

- Blocking Exit (Bandit) from BSQ/EW because Shadow Walk and Burrow are blocked in PvP too - good idea

 

Btw I'm playing summoner and invoker 81+.


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#165 Popcorn

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 04:41 AM

As for the cooldown subject, we won't adjust cooldowns significantly until we can separate between PvP and PvE, because significantly changed cooldowns will affect the gameplay experience for PvE players.

 

 


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#166 TheCristall

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:08 AM

Let it heal, at it's maximum level, only 30% Of the caster's maximum HP.

 

My problem with the skill is that it affects everyone as a group within its circle rendering them temporarily immortal from damage [...] This is harder to apply in group pvp because any teammate can simply jump on the sphere and help out the priest.

 

the first point is okay, if it would be only pvp, because you already have more hp in pvp but in pve that would be a hard nerf especially for people around 40-60 p.e. doing 3rd jobchange, because its max hp of the caster, so for hp stacked people and a less hp stacked priest its not that much.

 

 

in bsq people doesnt be considern as a group so it wont affect other people there, only the priest casting it, while in EW this is really strong to teleport everybody in range, so maybe something like a maximum amount of player that get the block status would be the best way to nerf it in EW.


Edited by TheCristall, 06 September 2015 - 06:08 AM.

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#167 checksome

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 09:44 AM

also block the summons revenge in BSQ, PVP and EW.


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#168 Precrush

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 10:56 AM

Might not be a too popular opinion but I think balance in games is best achieved by making each class ridiculous in their own way. Although this would require changes I don't think we would ever get I'll make a few suggestions:

 

Ninja: Bring back the dodge, fits their class and is op.

 

Sentinel: MS + Aim, a counterpart to ninjas pretty much.

 

Overlord: Highest single hit dmg out all classes, and why not add some crit in there too.

 

Destroyer:Make their little gadget things such as the turrets really op and add a few more.

 

These are just some dreams I have I thought I'd share for fun. I think this is how the devs wanted it to be from the start since we kinda have things going in that directions, but clearly were too incompetent to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#169 5143121023173906760

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 11:37 AM

Might not be a too popular opinion but I think balance in games is best achieved by making each class ridiculous in their own way. Although this would require changes I don't think we would ever get I'll make a few suggestions:

Ninja: Bring back the dodge, fits their class and is op.

Sentinel: MS + Aim, a counterpart to ninjas pretty much.

Overlord: Highest single hit dmg out all classes, and why not add some crit in there too.

Destroyer:Make their little gadget things such as the turrets really op and add a few more.

These are just some dreams I have I thought I'd share for fun. I think this is how the devs wanted it to be from the start since we kinda have things going in that directions, but clearly were too incompetent to do so.


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#170 flubsy

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 11:48 AM

also block the summons revenge in BSQ, PVP and EW.

 

I don't see the reason to do this, the cool down for summons is long enough that if you kill it fast enough, even if you die, the summoner is basically "naked" in a sense.  This also depends on the build of the summoner as well.  As a lot of SP is needed in order to build their tree 100%.  Building one tree vs another creates a completely different style of summoner.  I have two summoners, one that is purely dependent on summons for offense and defense and one that is pure skills.  

 

This is my reasoning for not needing it.  Basically a mage completely destroys a summoner since it can heal itself and freeze all of them easily rendering them useless.


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#171 ivey558

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 12:33 PM

Is there a reason for decreasing the damage of invoker's diffusion/double shot x-spam over time but not summoner's smart shot x-spam over time?

Let's hear your opinions.
 


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#172 checksome

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 12:47 PM

Like I said before, just restricting twin's Weaving and summoner's Revenge in pvp like they did with Ninja burrow, Paladin barricade is the first step.  I think it makes the most sense.

 

 

 

I don't see the reason to do this, the cool down for summons is long enough that if you kill it fast enough, even if you die, the summoner is basically "naked" in a sense.  This also depends on the build of the summoner as well.  As a lot of SP is needed in order to build their tree 100%.  Building one tree vs another creates a completely different style of summoner.  I have two summoners, one that is purely dependent on summons for offense and defense and one that is pure skills.  

 

This is my reasoning for not needing it.  Basically a mage completely destroys a summoner since it can heal itself and freeze all of them easily rendering them useless.

 

 

What?? Your argument is contradicting.


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#173 flubsy

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 02:27 PM

Opinions change after time now that I've actually spent more time playing the classes and seen how to counter certain things.


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#174 checksome

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:20 PM

Opinions change after time now that I've actually spent more time playing the classes and seen how to counter certain things.

:yawn:

 

Because you know and understand that  the skill is OP and taking advantage of it. Troll.


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#175 Coolsam

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:27 PM

also block the summons revenge in BSQ, PVP and EW.

 

This is probably the best option WarpPortal can do with what they're limited to be able to do for Summoners. Considering what skills get reflected are a very broad list and the summons take PvE damage and are very often in the AoE of our skills. No one can really complain about no reflect as they still have many other benefits for keeping summons out like Cast Time reduction, Dark Knight's high damage, Golgon's crowd-control, ability to heal the summons, etc.


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