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#1 Feuer

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 08:45 AM

So I counted each class + player on each team of 4 AA games. 

 

Here are the counts

Spoiler
 
Which results in these Class Percentages
 
36.94% Raiders
18.02% Scouts
17.18% Champions
9.91% Clerics
9.01% Bourgeois'
5.41% Magicians
2.7% Knights
.9% Artisans
 
For those who want a visual representation, here you go.
 
nc05xi.jpg
 
Anyone see anything wrong with this? 

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#2 bertkilo1

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 08:57 AM

so many raiders xD nice calculation Feuer. :D does this have a purpose vor something?

I thought there where stil many artisans they do lots of dmg  :o

if mage is only 5,41% they need an upgrade or raider down grade?


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#3 Feuer

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 09:01 AM

Raider needs a downgrade. This issue isn't classes not being capable of performing, it's the 3 dominant classes suppressing the other classes. Granted, there are indeed classes that really do need help. Sadly, it would take SO much more effort to actually calculate say Sword/Axe/Spear Champs separately, which is where some of those classes need help.

 

For example, out of all 20 scouts, none, not a single one, was a xBow when they were in there. Trust me, I looked for 3 Classes. Artisans, xBow Scouts, and Knights. Not a single player out of 111 wanted to play a xBow Scout in AA. 

 

I'm actually going to let the 'purpose' of this thread evolve on its own via casual conversation and hypotheses. Obviously I'm hoping more effort will be given by people to back up their claims. And if any 'class balancing' discussion is had, I'd most definitely expect you to back it up. 


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#4 CharasX

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 09:16 AM

4 AA games aren t enough to come to precise conclusions. In many of my games I observe for exemple way more mages / bourg / knights and clerics that u happen to have counted. 

 

I do recognize that those datas confirme the large popularity of raiders (mostly katars). But to be honest... katar raiders are very much overrated. Ofcourse they are good... but not "THAT" good. gun bourg for exemple will kill any of their targets more efficiently than any katar raiders out there.

 

When it comes to artis... well... for most poeple... they are just not a fighting class... xbow scouts are unpopular... not meaning they cannot do well, and knights... well when they were OP tanking 15 ppl they were everywhere, now that it s not the case anymore, ppl when bk to their DPS chars.

 

I believe the main problem comes from critical and the way the ratio is working. I posted it months ago, and I still believe it... critical should cap when it reaches 50% and all the stat going above the cap should be of no use. This way, it will definitly be doable for every classes to have builds countering critical heavy classes... making them less of a pain for them.

 

PS : I do still see many many many games with 2+ mages on both sides. Ofc less now that mana shield got nerved... but let me say it again, the problem with mages was never mana shield... but their overall AOE DPS, AOE stuns, and AOE mvt speed down capable of crippling a whole team.


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#5 Feuer

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 09:17 AM

Just so you know, I'm still collecting data, that's after day 1.

 


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#6 DoubleRose

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 09:42 AM

So I counted each class + player on each team of 4 AA games.

 
Anyone see anything wrong with this? 

 

Yeah, it's called sample size. I don't care that you are "still collecting", you shouldn't have posted until you had a reasonable amount of data.


Edited by DoubleRose, 11 June 2015 - 09:43 AM.

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#7 Skaduwee

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 09:48 AM

I think you all misunderstanding why raiders are the most playable class. It's not because it is the strongest, we are not THAT strong. The reason is more simple : it is funnier to play raider katar ...
Others classes are as strong as raiders, some are even stronger. Bourges gun are doing so good.

Please look at the points we have in AA, and what other classes have.
Reason why raiders are more funny is : we can cloack and not being easily target

What do you want to nerf? I dont get why u all hate so much on katar raiders, u just seem wanting to remove this class lol

Edited by Skaduwee, 11 June 2015 - 09:52 AM.

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#8 Feuer

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 09:56 AM

Coming from a Raider main, I won't take much of that to heart. I'm borderline not caring what the Raider community wants, the game and other classes deserve to be just as playable as a Katar Raider. 

 

I forgot to mention. I've heard the player excuse "they're not OP, they're just fun" more times than I care to make a chart for. The funny part is it's true, Top classes are fun to play, because they have a higher chance to win than lose. Obviously winning is fun. 


Edited by Feuer, 11 June 2015 - 09:58 AM.

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#9 Skaduwee

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:02 AM

Lol man i'm playing raider for 9years now, i'm playing it because it is cool (looks cool, and it's not a F1/F2/F3 aoe spam class, IT IS funny to run, attack and target some as a strategy, not going like a retard in melee) and besides that's all i know to play.

Once again, go check their points, and compare with other classes
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#10 Leonis

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:08 AM

I'm not here to rain on your parade, but to provide some actual statistics so you can make arguments with valid data. Sampling from your own personal observations isn't bad, but it leaves out all the matches that you don't get to see. That being said, here's a chart of all the Akram Arena match class compositions, since May 29, 2015. A total of 769 games.

 

Some more facts on this data sample:

1,196 unique characters

of these characters

2 are Visitor (0%)
63 are Knight (5%)
213 are Champion (18%)
91 are Mage (8%)
185 are Cleric (15%)
380 are Raider (32%)
168 are Scout (14%)
70 are Bourgeois (6%)
25 are Artisan (2%)

 

Attached File  AkramArena-ClassParticipation.png   28.2KB   4 downloads

 


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#11 Skaduwee

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:09 AM

A raider stand no chance vs a mage in 1v1.
I'm not ashamed to say that my raider would die (and he did several times against some mages like Alesso, or others that i don't remember their names).
Against Champs also it is kinda difficult to deal with their high AP, and that's the game, that's what their classes are supposed to be.
Our class is supposed to be like a "hidden killer" and AA is a perfect place for that, but still u can't say we are OP, it's just because we know how to play it and it is funny.

Again, mages are crying, and people yelling that raiders are way more OP than other classes.
And you're doing a fail study on how many classes are in AA, when (for a right balance) it would be to calculate how much each class are getting in AA, that's how you would be able to say that one or another are weaker/stronger.

The thing that can prove my words : we are 36.94% ok.. But we are gettibg half points than champs or gun bourges or whatever. But we are still that many... So why? It is pbviously because we find it funny, not OP, Or else we would have max points all over clerics with 500points+ and other classes.

Edited by Skaduwee, 11 June 2015 - 10:13 AM.

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#12 Feuer

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:13 AM

Hey Leo, that looks a whole hell of a lot like my chart don't you think. 

 

Essentially, I won't have to check data anymore. You just literally verified exactly what I thought was true. Hawkers and their second classes make up over 50% of the classes in AA. 2/3 of that being Raiders. And I'd bet my bottom dollar they're NOT dual wields lol.. 

 

The next step I'll have to figure out is average damage dealt + kill + death counts per each class. I would also add in the average Honor earned per class, but the Honor booster ruined that, but I can still figure out which classes perform at what average points, and see if that reveals anything further.

 

And you'd be right, I do this for free. Probably shouldn't, but it's not like they have an interest in these figures. If they do, they probably don't have time to incorporate them into the decisions for the future. 


Edited by Feuer, 11 June 2015 - 10:21 AM.

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#13 CharasX

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:16 AM

Just so you know, I'm still collecting data, that's after day 1.

well, that s indeed a good thing! I don't know where you find the motivation to do such things.... and that for free I assume....

 

But 1 thing that you must not forget, it is just impossible to reach a perfect balance inbetween classes that players decide to use... popularity is something you cannot control 100%.

 

Myself, I like katar raider "style" (animations... graphic design) very much... playing it as main class since 10 years... everywhere... but with the current skills and stats options available to them on this server... I tend to prefer going dual... or scout (even if god... they are seriously underpowered, their class balance was horribly made... good burst, very bad DPS, completly useless PVMwise). Duals and Scouts can somehow be efficient with several build variations, and this is smthing I appreciate a lot, but Katars... acc + crit + melee and that s it, I do not like that feeling to HAVE TO take a direction.. and only this one... if I want to not have a completly useless character.


Edited by CharasX, 11 June 2015 - 10:20 AM.

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#14 carlosrose

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:21 AM

A raider stand no chance vs a mage in 1v1.
I'm not ashamed to say that my raider would die (and he did several times against some mages like Alesso, or others that i don't remember their names).
Against Champs also it is kinda difficult to deal with their high AP, and that's the game, that's what their classes are supposed to be.
Our class is supposed to be like a "hidden killer" and AA is a perfect place for that, but still u can't say we are OP, it's just because we know how to play it and it is funny.

Again, mages are crying, and people yelling that raiders are way more OP than other classes.
And you're doing a fail study on how many classes are in AA, when (for a right balance) it would be to calculate how much each class are getting in AA, that's how you would be able to say that one or another are weaker/stronger.

The thing that can prove my words : we are 36.94% ok.. But we are gettibg half points than champs or gun bourges or whatever. But we are still that many... So why? It is pbviously because we find it funny, not OP, Or else we would have max points all over clerics with 500points+ and other classes.

 

With a proper build and skill timing a katar can easily kill a mage in 1v1 just sayin'


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#15 Leonis

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:38 AM

Hey Leo, that looks a whole hell of a lot like my chart don't you think. 

 

Essentially, I won't have to check data anymore. You just literally verified exactly what I thought was true. Hawkers and their second classes make up over 50% of the classes in AA. 2/3 of that being Raiders. And I'd bet my bottom dollar they're NOT dual wields lol.. 

 

The next step I'll have to figure out is average damage dealt + kill + death counts per each class. I would also add in the average Honor earned per class, but the Honor booster ruined that, but I can still figure out which classes perform at what average points, and see if that reveals anything further.

 

And you'd be right, I do this for free. Probably shouldn't, but it's not like they have an interest in these figures. If they do, they probably don't have time to incorporate them into the decisions for the future. 

It certainly is close. :) I just wanted you to have verified data, so anyone couldn't argue your numbers might not be true. Now they can't. The minor differences are what I was bringing up as a point, you can miss matches and it would alter the statistics based on the amount of sampling you have. Just trying to help you have accuracy to your arguments. I have no disagreement to much of what's being argued, but like I said, just wanted to help with actual numbers :)

 

Please continue the discussion. :) I'm looking forward to seeing what can be produced by it.

 

As for the average damage dealt, kill, death per class. ( I removed the Visitor, because it was throwing off the charts due to it being literally just 2 entries.)

 

Average Damage Inflicted per class

Attached File  Ave-Class-Damage.png   20.42KB   8 downloads

Average number of Kills per class

Attached File  Ave-Class-Kills.png   16.87KB   9 downloads

Average number of deaths per class

Attached File  Ave-Class-Death.png   16.76KB   7 downloads


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#16 Skaduwee

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:40 AM

Thank you Leonis

Edited by Skaduwee, 11 June 2015 - 10:42 AM.

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#17 Feuer

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:43 AM

So then do you have the verified data for sub-clases, or is this just the general 2nd trees. For example I see Bourge's punching the most average damage dealt, but which ones. Cannon or Guns. 

 

Another point just mostly for myself to note, Raiders have the same death ratio as Knights. Scouts are also only .1 behind that. While Bourges and Champions are in the 2.x values. Naturally Artisans die the most often. While pushing roughly the same damage as a scout. 

Let's say for example, just for now. Shouldn't a class that dies almost* twice as often, deal atleast more damage than the class that dies half as often as the Artisan? Once I get my figures and comparisons put together, I'll be able to clearly judge what classes need what. That was just an example. 


Edited by Feuer, 11 June 2015 - 10:47 AM.

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#18 bertkilo1

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:49 AM

Champ death 2.6 knight have more kils then champ? That is weird. Champ should get better def or more hp?
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#19 Leonis

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 10:56 AM

So then do you have the verified data for sub-clases, or is this just the general 2nd trees. For example I see Bourge's punching the most average damage dealt, but which ones. Cannon or Guns.

Unfortunately, that level of data is not tracked, so you will have to speculate from there.
 

Another point just mostly for myself to note, Raiders have the same death ratio as Knights. Scouts are also only .1 behind that. While Bourges and Champions are in the 2.x values. Naturally Artisans die the most often. While pushing roughly the same damage as a scout. 

Let's say for example, just for now. Shouldn't a class that dies almost* twice as often, deal atleast more damage than the class that dies half as often as the Artisan? Once I get my figures and comparisons put together, I'll be able to clearly judge what classes need what. That was just an example.

By that logic though, Clerics should never die because they deal such low damage comparatively.

 

There are many factors to consider, but having the data gives the ability to speculate further and provides better insight to where you may want to focus attention.

 

From these statistics, it seems there's no true dominant class when it comes to damage. The percentages are within reason with a slight favor to the Bourgeois. Being a ranged and damage design class, I think it's to be expected. It also goes a bit hand in hand with their higher kill average, because they can pick their targets from a distance. While another team member may have done the dirty work of keeping their attention, the final blow is what counts as the kill. I know not a perfect system, but it's been that way forever.

 

 


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#20 Feuer

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 11:35 AM

You'd actually have a special case for FS + BC. FS Death Ratio to Healing output [essentially their 'damage' figures but in reverse] is already close. Infact, can you provide the average healing for a Cleric class. I'd like to use that for their scenarios. 

 

However, I'd beg to differ. 

 

Another way to look at the data to support that some classes are indeed functioning significantly more effective than others would be the KD Ratio comparison.

 

Artisan Kill 2.2 Death 3.0

Dies significantly more often than kills.

 

Raider Kill 2.6 Death 1.9

Kills more often [by a large portion~] than it dies.

 

One of the best balancing figures in games is the classic KD. Granted, you need to know root reasons that affect that ratio to help adjust them. That being said, the best balanced MMO classes I've personally experienced were pretty damn close to KD 1:1. It meant each class [possibly via different mechanics] had equal potential to win or lose. 

 

Seeing classes with KD's all over the place, even if the damage is similar isn't balanced or equal term combat. It's favored combat. I'm going to have to rummage more. Hopefully coming to highly detailed proposed adjustments. So everyone knows what that means, Essay post incoming. 

 

 

[@Bert, champ kills more often, at the trade off of dying more often, compared to knight. It's a good ratio] 


Edited by Feuer, 11 June 2015 - 11:36 AM.

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#21 Castanho

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 11:37 AM

Welcome to Raider On Seven Episodes  :heh:  :heh:  :heh:


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#22 DoubleRose

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 11:38 AM

What does usage matter anyway? Usage statistics failed for competitive pokemon and for the recent smash brothers game. Anyone who knows competitive pokemon knows that smogon and its statistics didn't work so they switched to banning things and created a terrible reverse power creep sonwball effect.


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#23 johniscu

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 11:44 AM

Mages are damn near impossible to play rite now so id like to see that data from mana shield nerf up to a month and see how drastically it changes.


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#24 Feuer

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 12:12 PM

OK so, upon looking at your values closer, gonna need some further clarification.

 

For starters, a KD Ratio is a single number.

Example, KD 1.9 means for every 1 death, you average 1.9 kills.

 

So this leads me to think these values are based on an average sample size of total deaths/kills occurring in a match. If that's true, can we get the figures of the average deaths/kills being sampled from?

 

Because I'd have expected that the total Kills by all classes, would equal the total Deaths of all classes, which it doesn't. 

 

 


Edited by Feuer, 11 June 2015 - 12:13 PM.

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#25 iMatt

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 12:17 PM

My 2 cents to this discussion:

A lot of playstyles and strategies for PvP Arena Games require coordination and teamwork.

 

Raiders and Scouts excell in splitted teamfights or in uncoordinated skirmishes.

 

If you look at the current PvP World you rarely see even CLAN groups that work well as team together. Of course are Raider and Scouts on top when you run around without structure and not as a team. (They are supposed to be assasins and illusive)

But as soon as a team actually manages to play together Raiders (and Scouts to a certain amount) fall massivly behind.

A well rounded team (1-2 knights to distract focusdamage, 2 clerics+ for crosshealing, some champions for berserk burst aoe, 1-2 mages/launcher bourgs for range AoE, and gunbourgs to focus high priority targets from distance) is an unbreakable force if executed correctly.

 

There are just so many factors that influence this.

 

This "if you can't beat it cry for nerfs" mentality is sometimes really annoying - Should I start recording now what AoE spams do with Raiders? Or how Gunbourgs with (new) passive proccs demolish scouts in 0.5 seconds?

 

Apart from that is the extremly high overall damage also working in (Bow)Scout favor due to their burst potential.

 

I would love to see more details about the data:

 

- What is the KDA of Raider/Scouts as attacker compared to defender? (defending teams usually work better as team by nature because they usually group around the crystals)

 

- What is the winrate on Clerics solo compared to 2 support clerics? (because of the high damage clerics often die through burst, if there are two in one team it pushes the whole group to another level)

- What is the winrate of teams without support clerics vs teams with support clerics?

 

etc etc.


Edited by iMatt, 11 June 2015 - 12:58 PM.

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