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diffusion cannon vs double shot w/elements


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#1 ManItsMike

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 08:20 PM

Hey everyone! My apologies for bringing up the age old debate, but I'd like to settle it once and for all.

From what I've gathered.. double shot is better for mobs, diffusion cannon for single targets. At least... this is what I've always followed. Last night I made a PoS weapon *special thank you to the folks who addressed my concerns in the other post I made*, and it got me to thinking: will diffusion cannon be better in PVE (single targets) than double shot, even without the elemental damage bonus? I'm thinking about elga specifically. If it helps, the equip difference is 3.7k magic attack, and the BDL is ice element.
Thanks for your time, friendos!

Edit: 27% critical rate and max crit damage as well

Edited by ManItsMike, 12 June 2015 - 08:23 PM.

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#2 Infin1te

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 07:44 PM

will diffusion cannon be better in PVE (single targets) than double shot, even without the elemental damage bonus?

 

 

From what I've gathered.. double shot is better for mobs, diffusion cannon for single targets. At least... this is what I've always followed

 
What? You answered it yourself

Edited by Infin1te, 14 June 2015 - 07:44 PM.

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#3 ManItsMike

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 04:43 AM

No. I did not. I was simply stating what I thought to be true.
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#4 Infin1te

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 11:07 AM

So you're not convinced about what you gathered.

 

Diffusion cannon is 3 balls per shot

Double shot is 2 balls per shot

 

In terms of % matk each skill uses, they seem pretty equal to me so 3 balls > 2 balls.


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#5 Homurasan

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 11:49 AM

Double shot's scaling seems to be way higher than Diffusion cannon's one though. Also you can hit 4 times with it (2x2), so at the very least 4 hits > 3 hits.


Edited by Homurasan, 15 June 2015 - 11:50 AM.

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#6 ManItsMike

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 03:21 PM

The following is what I wrote up today in a rough copy of the guide I'm trying to make. I assumed x=10k magic attack (as an average, for average hit) this is without critical hits. I really just want to make sure I'm on the right track so I don't misguide people.

Diffusion cannon (level 5, 3 hits): 3(0.78x + 50) = 3(7850) = 23,400 per x attack
Double shot ( level 1, 2 hits, single target): 2(1.12x + 40) = 2(11240) = 22,480 per x attack
Double shot (level 1, 4 hits, multi target) 4(1.12x + 40) = 4(11240) = 44,960 per x attack
In conclusion: Diffusion cannon is slightly better than double shot on single targets, even more so with a higher critical rate. Double shot wins hands down for mobs.
numbers seem slightly higher than this in practice, I'm glad I kept my old weapons to test it.
Let's toss element damage into the mix. Let's assume a nice round number, 600 damage on a BDL weapon (yes, I know they have a percent bonus as well, but let's not overcomplicate this) Element damage is added on at the end of the formula for each hit. so:
+1800 damage on diffusion cannon per x attack
+1200 damage on double shot (single) per x attack
+2400 damage on double shot (multi) per x attack
Basically, Elements change nothing, except widening the gap on the difference.

I then went to test this, very briefly, making a magma weapon, derping around with a few equips, and got myself to 10048 or something, and my average seemed slightly higher than these numbers but close enough to call it a decent rough estimate.
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#7 Infin1te

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 06:57 AM

From what I've gathered.. double shot is better for mobs, diffusion cannon for single targets....

 

will diffusion cannon be better in PVE (single targets) than double shot, even without the elemental damage bonus?

 

 

Double shot's scaling seems to be way higher than Diffusion cannon's one though. Also you can hit 4 times with it (2x2), so at the very least 4 hits > 3 hits.

 

His question stated PvE Single targets.

 

I never disagreed with, "double shot is better for mobs, diffusion cannon for single targets...."

 

After all this, you reached the same conclusion you had at the beginning of the thread. Good job.


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#8 Homurasan

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:19 AM

As for the elements : some bosses (Elga) have high defense and some weakness to a certain element, which makes them more resilient to standard attacks.

With your calculations, it could be something like : 

23,400 x (100 - [defense percentage])% + 3 x 600 x (100 + [weakness percentage])% for Diffusion cannon, against

22,480 x (100 - [defense percentage])% + 2 x 600 x (100 + [weakness percentage])% for Double shot.

 

Taking 20% defense and 15% weakness (must be around Elga's stats, feel free to correct me) : 23,600 against 22,000.

As you can see, the higher the boss' regular defense, the more efficient Diffusion cannon and elements will be. Diffusion cannon then seems to be a better choice when hitting single targets (also applies to PvP).

 

 

Now with critical rate involved : 300% critical damage, 30% final critical rate.

 

23,400 x (100 + 30 x 3)% x (100 - 20)% + 3 x 600 x (100 + 15)% = 43,000     (actually critical hit damage isn't calculated like this, but screw it)

22,480 x (100 + 30 x 3)% x (100 - 20)% + 2 x 600 x (100 + 15)% = 40,700 

 

23,600 / 22,000 = 107% and 43,000 / 40,700 = 106%. It seems like higher critical rate / damage only increases Double shot's efficiency compared to Diffusion cannon as long as elements are implied ; how did you come to the opposite conclusion ?

 

 

Now as for the 'old debate', with 20,000 MATK, set critical rate and damage, no elements implied :

 

Diffusion cannon : 3 x (0.78 x 20,000 + 50) = 46,910

Double shot : 2 x (1.12 x 20,000 + 40) = 44,880

46,910 / 44,880 = 105%

 

With the 10.000 MATK from before :

23400 / 22480 = 104%

 

We saw that, with set critical rate and damage, elements benefit more to the Diffusion cannon, and so does an increase in MATK, given there only is one target to hit.

From this comes that Diffusion cannon deals more damage to single targets, although not by far unless you have tremendous amounts of element attack.


Edited by Homurasan, 02 August 2015 - 03:23 PM.

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#9 sean718

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:23 AM

DS for mobs. DC for bosses.

 

There is no argument.


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#10 Homurasan

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 08:02 AM

I like to have some kind of proof before my eyes instead of just being told that it's how you do it when you're hype or high-leveled or anything else. There indeed are arguments, although they tend to show what already is "known" by most players.


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#11 TheCristall

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 08:22 AM

just a small point for elga (i often went elga with my invoker solo):

 

use double shot or use both weapons :Emo_13:

 

with ds your weapon hold longer than with dc, and/or you use the other as replacement in case the first breaks

 

also ds has way more range than dc, thats good especially for third form to attack the wall when he uses some attacks


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#12 noxis

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:06 AM

I like to have some kind of proof before my eyes instead of just being told that it's how you do it when you're hype or high-leveled or anything else. There indeed are arguments, although they tend to show what already is "known" by most players.

 

while his claim isn't baseless, you have every right to question it. some people just don't have the patience for explanations i guess.

 

so i will enlighten you- again.

 

it is a simple fact that mobs have lower hp so double shot is more effective, double shot also has an explosive range which allows it to deal damage to nearby enemies which makes it ideal for mob killing

 

diffusion cannon cannot do those things for the simple fact that diffusion does not have explosive range, but a wide range. diffusion cannon also is also capped at 78% total mattk which would hardly compete with doubleshot against low hp enemies. 

 

as for boss fights, doubleshot is not as effective as diffusion cannon, even with 40% critical rate and 300% cd cap achieved. this is due to the fact that bosses have higher hp thresholds.

doubleshot would surely out dps diffusion cannon if the hp was comparative to regular mobs, but that isn't the case. 

 

if you have a total of 30k mattk. you can expect your diffusion cannon to be doing about 23.4k x3.

in retrospect, if you take your 30k mattk and you use double shot, you can expect to be doing 33.6k x 2.

 

so you're looking at diffusion cannons 70.2k dps.

against double shots 67.2k.

 

yes. the argument is there that doubleshot's critical hits are harder.

diffusion cannons critical hits are weaker, but much more frequent.

 

1.5x more frequent to be exact. simple isn't it?


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#13 Homurasan

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:15 AM

May you please look up and see that I haven't asked any question and that I myself did some calculations as for how these spells work, along with elements and critical hits ?

I don't mind you trying to... help ? but you don't need to enlighten me. I'm quite brilliant myself.


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#14 sean718

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:17 AM

I like to have some kind of proof before my eyes instead of just being told that it's how you do it when you're hype or high-leveled or anything else. There indeed are arguments, although they tend to show what already is "known" by most players.

 

I'm lazy  :yawn: . Sorry if that inconveniences you.


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#15 noxis

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:22 AM

May you please look up and see that I haven't asked any question and that I myself did some calculations as for how these spells work, along with elements and critical hits ?

I don't mind you trying to... help ? but you don't need to enlighten me. I'm quite brilliant myself.

 

your responses are so paradoxical, save from it's possible truths; that i have to question as to whether you're really speaking to yourself or to others.


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#16 Homurasan

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:36 AM

@sean718 : so am I, but science and overall happiness of players are causes that are worth fighting for !

 

@noxis : supposedly I'm writing to you, but I indeed like writing and speaking to and about My Greatness, the One and Only being worthy to kneel down before, and the Reason to this world's existence.

Suzumiya Haruhi for you.


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#17 noxis

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 02:01 PM

@sean718 : so am I, but science and overall happiness of players are causes that are worth fighting for !

 

@noxis : supposedly I'm writing to you, but I indeed like writing and speaking to and about My Greatness, the One and Only being worthy to kneel down before, and the Reason to this world's existence.

Suzumiya Haruhi for you.

 

congratulations, i'm glad you've found your purpose in life.


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#18 ManItsMike

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 02:56 PM

I really appreciate the responses, folks. Thank you for your input.
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#19 sean718

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 07:37 PM

just a small point for elga (i often went elga with my invoker solo):

 

use double shot or use both weapons :Emo_13:

 

with ds your weapon hold longer than with dc, and/or you use the other as replacement in case the first breaks

 

also ds has way more range than dc, thats good especially for third form to attack the wall when he uses some attacks

 

This is good advice to conserve weapon durability. With enchant rates and insurance being more available to f2p players, it wouldn't be wrong to invest in a 2nd +20 weapon to farm elga with.

 

But I use diffusion cannon on bosses for groggy bar filling on mini bosses. It makes everything smoother. Elga can also be solo groggied by invokers in his second stage. Though you need a really good computer for that.

 

*I might upload a video showing this if requested. I am lazy though  :yawn:

 

**Changed my mind. Too much work.


Edited by sean718, 16 June 2015 - 07:43 PM.

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#20 ManItsMike

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:25 PM

I use two weapons for Elga, as well. My solos take forever, as my computer isn't the best piece of equipment (I think I ended yesterday's kill with 13 minutes left or so)

I've actually found a use for chain combo with this class thanks to black claw nest! I was never a fan of it until recently.
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#21 sean718

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 12:36 AM

I use two weapons for Elga, as well. My solos take forever, as my computer isn't the best piece of equipment (I think I ended yesterday's kill with 13 minutes left or so)

I've actually found a use for chain combo with this class thanks to black claw nest! I was never a fan of it until recently.

 

If you're considering an upgrade in the future I'd like to suggest buying/building a computer with a powerful CPU. This game is surprisingly CPU dependent.


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#22 Homurasan

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 06:51 AM

congratulations, i'm glad you've found your purpose in life.

 

Why, thank you ! >w<


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#23 ohsnap

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 02:19 PM

much weeb.


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#24 ManItsMike

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 08:48 PM

If you're considering an upgrade in the future I'd like to suggest buying/building a computer with a powerful CPU. This game is surprisingly CPU dependent.


Absolutely. Thanks for the tip! Saving for the new rig begins after I finish my solars. I had some put aside but my dog got sick, and she was much more important! :P
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#25 Vansir

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 02:24 AM

Hey, i just started playing monk and after i hit 40 lvl i got my double shot. But from what u say it should be able to hit 4 targets with 2 shots. Well it never happens. I tried on many targets standing on each other and nothing. Also no matter what i always get only 2 combo points per x and it's confirmation to my theory that double shot don't work like u said. Could any1 explain me this? Am I missing something?


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