241 replies to this topic

[Ambur]

Just to make it clear, the whole "your side APs our side doesn't" is why these discussions go no where and why so few people from the other side take it seriously to spam post the threads.

Edited by Ambur, 10 August 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[schia]

Spoiler

I can't answer that last question, I do not cheat. I have talked to guildleaders about it and they don't think they can stop it / tried to persuade me to do the same. My guild stamp their feet and say no. I'm bound by what they want.

 

As for the rest

 

- they want to win

everyone wants to win, but why would people choose to cheat to want to win?  Is there no other alternative to winning besides needing to cheat?

Some of them blame numbers, some of them just don't want to put in effort.

 

 

- it pisses off the other side (cheating to troll)

what caused them to feel like they need to troll the opposing side?

Probably human nature.

 

- there are no repercussions

why do they feel that there are no repercussions to cheating?  Are players not policing themselves?

Players are not and nor are the GMs. Picking up my ball and refusing to play with these people has lead to massive / public harassment, without a word from myself.

 

- they think it is a mechanic that should be in the game by default

what other game mechanics support cheating?  Too much supply?   Would addressing the infinite supply meta relate to autopotting?

Autopotting reduces the number of potions used, as they stop at a set hp % where as a normal player will blindly button mash.

 

- it is something they have used and is accepted on other servers

What led them to believe that rules for different servers are the same and that it is accepted on a different server?  Is there a lack of communication?  If so, why are both sides not communicating effectively.

We could use a set list of rules and consequences in plain view as reference. Other servers (such as fRO) do have these.

example : http://forum.ragnaro...2-ingame-rules/

 

- they believe the other side is cheating.

Are both sides cheating?  If not then why do both sides believe each other is cheating?  Is there a lack of effective communication or perhaps there is lack of trust?

Or they are just making excuses. There's no real "sides" anymore, since it's one guild vs server. And I know my side isn't cheating (for the most part, some do slip through, but people do get kicked out for it - this could also explain the size of valhalla vs other guilds)

 

- it's so endemic, that guildleaders are frightened to act as they will lose too many people.

Why?  Is the leadership poor and has no firm grasp on player retention?  Is there a lack of intra-guild communication here?  Perhaps there is a lack of respect of the leadership so community guidelines set by the leadership isn't followed.

Actually yes.

 

you realize that our previous discussion via PM's has you saying somethings contrary to what you have mentioned.  Both sides believing they are faultless and not willing to even analyze themselves of their own actions, both past and present, does not help in communications.

 

Everything you have said is essentially passing off the responsibility on the opposing side without even considering that perhaps something on your end could be done better to garner mutual respect and better communication.  Human nature or not, it is not natural for stances on cheating in game to be so fragmented.  The fact that each little clique constantly argues against each other for the sake of arguing, and purposely trolling each others and themselves just to start more drama indicates that there is something more than just a few people spoiling it for the rest by cheating at a game. 

 

So let me repeat myself again, cheating is a community driven problem.  Nothing will be done about it unless the community resolves it themselves.  Legalize autopotting today and tomorrow it'll be some other cheat, and the list will keep going on.  Both sides needs to communicate with each other respectfully, and that requires at least one person on one side to actually be willing to objectively analyze themselves of their current and past actions and be willing to discuss it.  If not then we're just wasting our times again.
 

 

EDIT: oh, and i know people will call me out on using the slippery slope argument.  To bad its relevant and is absolutely what is happening right now.  The same amount of drama and poo flinging happened during discussions of macros and autohotkeys legality in the past, and rcx.  First it was people pushing for macros to be legal, then it was RCX, and now its auto pots.  So yea TL:DR slippery slope, and we're sliding down it face first.  Non stop chant that i'm wrong and you're right all you want, but it still won't address any problems people are spewing.

 

Next time someone wants to start a public discussion on the issues of cheating, do it in a public place like the iRO community raidcall.  Not behind some personal teamspeak and only have your own clique show up by not letting anyone else show up because hurrdurrr private teamspeak info.  Set up guidelines for topics and stick to it instead of ramble and rant for 3 hours.  Be open to opposing views, and actually answer them legitimately instead of blowing them off.  Trust me, it'll take much more than 3 hours to fully communicate 1 aspect of why people are cheating so the list of things to be discussed  for each session should be extremely short.

Edited by schia, 10 August 2015 - 03:33 PM.

[Scuba]

Sounds like a personal problem

[kijudoav]

Pic Related.

[dzmL]

People use autopot. And despite all of the discussion and the explanation that it's against the rules, the behavior has not stopped.

In light of this, legalize it and work on a built-in autopot then call it a day. The point of these posts aren't to point fingers, accuse or generally be argumentative. The point is to explain the issues the players are seeing and the gm's are not able to rectify.

Legalize autopot. The lack of in-game moderation on this topic proves there is no 'viable' way to accurately detect and act upon the data. Legalize it and be done with this. Focus on the ndl, etc.

Edited by dzmL, 10 August 2015 - 06:37 PM.

[Noirfan]

Legalizing autopot is not an option, for various reasons!

 

First off, rules are made as a regulation for players based on what they're allowed to do or use and NOT of what's enforceable, 

this is NOT the way to go.

 

Secondly, there are still players playing this game honestly, investing time and money into it. Throwing those people of coz investigation

is a drag is not appropiate. Even as a player you're able to tell if a character is using potions manually or not and GM's are having far superior

possibilities.

 

Lastly, playing a game should be done by yourself, rather than having various programs running in the background, doing all the "hard work", coz this would be the first step to it.

 

Regards Noirfan

 

 

 

 

[schia]

The conclusion that it needs to be legalized is the result of exactly what you are talking about. Guildleaders tell eachother/accept it's out of their control.

 

if that is what you need to tell yourself then you have failed as a leader.

[schia]

Oh, so I should not listen to them.

 

Ok.

 

Being the leader of the biggest guild on Classic I think I'm doing fine. May I dare ask you to talk about the topic at hand rather than attacking me as a person?

 

i have, and i already brought up the points for the community to discuss.  Whether or not they choose to do so is none of my business.  If no one wants to discuss the reason why people feel comfortable cheating then just say so.  Make it known that no discussion is actually wanted at the start so the reasonable people that tries to help will know ahead of time and we won't need to waste our time and effort.

 

If that was the goal all along then well played.

[Quetzacoatl]

If a mod could clean out the off topic stuff, that would be great.

 

Most people don't quit RO because they want to quit RO, they quit because they can't stand the game and what it has become. They quit over poor decision making by staff, they quit over the community tearing at each other because they have nobody to guide them through a reasonable discussion. They're left to fight it out between each other with no staff input.

It's not pleasant.

 

I've stated repeatedly I don't like autopot, I'm not changed on that stance. But it is impossible for them to police. It is centralized in one group (lets not kid ourselves) and it's the same players every time. There are no/very few GMs online to catch them in real time. If we catch someone they turn it down because lol gms are coming. Notice, the word "down" not "off".

 

All things GMs can do to deliberately set off an autopot have the potential to interfere with the outcome of a battle. Status effects, HP buffs, HP/SP loss... And watching for it visually is hard  since players all stack up on top of each other, all bunch up, or other effects are masking the visual effects. Also not everything is visual (ygg seeds, woe pots, mastela fruit, panacea).

 

Combined with it only operating on certain maps/having a toggle on off/% setting, it's only ever really going to be caught by players who are actively playing and wanting to WoE, not play hall monitor (and with that everyone wants to play the same game).

 

The GMs could check the logs? There's randomization in the reaction times for that. Assuming the servers even log things in a usable fashion - and add in toggle off and on... there's nothing that can be done.

 

Like many people I wanted to see the GMs try. And even back when the old topic happened, I knew it was fairly common, but since then I've seen it being used in a much more prolific amount that I expected to encounter.

 

WoE is not a single instance of combat. There are long term gains and advantages people can gain from cheating in one woe and not the next. That's why it matters for enforcement to be fast. As it stands it appears to be not at all and people are reaping the rewards.

 

Ignoring the other stuff (ndl, maya purple) this is one thing that they CAN equalize very easily. This isn't about wanting / needing advantages, this is just about equality.

 

The personal side : people tell me to just cheat back. I make many videos, I livestream my play, I add a face to iRO to help bring people to the server, everything that goes through my client shows up for everyone to see. I would get banned and these other people wouldn't. So no, I can't/won't cheat back. If they legalize autopot, I'm going to be all over it, but it's not something I can do for now. And that kind of visibility goes for every Valhalla member who is a target because we are anti-cheat in public. We would all get report spammed and we know it. So it is unpleasant to play vs that. No matter how much the guild owner/leader/players assure us it's not happening, we uncover more and more each WoE and those people seem somewhat surprised to see it. I don't know how much of it is those people being naive vs outright lying, - but they haven't stopped just because they've been asked.

 

To those people : we're not going to keep playing against that sort of thing knowing that we're likely to get banned when we're the ones making videos and attempting to make iRO visible. I would personally rather not play due to the stress of the situation (as well as the other stuff)

 

So what I'm saying is, work with us, get the playing field even and everyone wins.

 

"Like many people I wanted to see the GMs try cry."  ?
 

[IronFist]

Its rather amusing because as far as i know... RCX is NOT allowed.

It was for a period of time but GM's have since refuted that statement.
Well at least from the topic's i have contributed that is the underlying tone.

(and no im not going to quote the mod/cm that said it, go search it urself)  

[Xellie]

Its rather amusing because as far as i know... RCX is NOT allowed.

It was for a period of time but GM's have since refuted that statement.
Well at least from the topic's i have contributed that is the underlying tone.

(and no im not going to quote the mod/cm that said it, go search it urself)  

 

http://forums.warppo...-party-program/

 

please stop trolling.
 

 

RCX in itself is fine, but if you are using the heal slave features (or any other feature that fits into the 3rd party program criteria), we will have no mercy on your soul account and you will not be given any "outs" because it was some other program. If we reprogrammed MS word to start botting for you we would ban you for using it, we are banning the activity not the actual program usage. If someone is using RCX for more legit tool usages then frankly we don't have a beef with those players. If they start using it to automate play, get access to information that is not presented to the player or to modify data to try and cheat then they will cope with the consequences that such activities carry.

 

 

I hope Heim randomly pops in and repeats himself for you. Maybe Oda or Campitor could do the job also.

[IronFist]

Started by Heimdallr, Dec 12 2012 04:42 AM

 

If this was still valid...

Why isnt the topic pinned?

 

Edited by IronFist, 10 August 2015 - 11:39 PM.

[Xellie]

Started by Heimdallr, Dec 12 2012 04:42 AM

 

This is the last post I'm making in response to you.

 

it is still pinned, it's listed here.

https://forums.warpp...ng-july-1-2015/

 

Heim > camp/Oda/GMs

 

Heim made that thread after someone got banned for using RCX to state that they weren't going to ban for it anymore.

 

it was illegal

then heim made it not illegal because of issues on classic.

and that has not changed since.
 

HEIM ODA OR CAMP

Please inform this dude so that he can stop derailing the topic. It's not really the job of your user base to clarify this kind of information; it should be highly visible and easy to access anyway.

 

thanks.

 

Edited by Xellie, 10 August 2015 - 11:50 PM.

[Themes]

ITS NOT REALLY THE JOB OF YOUR USERBASE TO CLARIFY INFORMATION THAT SHOULD BE HIGHLY VISIBLE AND EASY TO ACCESS.

 

But what would i post then?

 

As for actual content, my stance on legalising it hasnt changed. Knowing the GMs have been active but not making any impact leads me to believe that they currently dont have the proper tools or skills to take care of these problems. This is something we can solve. I never really expected the GMs to say "these are still illegal, we'll have people around watching" to turn into an instant ending of all forms of cheating. But they've had a few weeks to observe and nothing has been done, so it's time to put some pressure on them.

 

If you need help with what to look for or how/when to check we can help you out and provide you with solid examples. People are probably willing to be much more forgiving about not being able to place their firepillars if they see cheaters being removed and players being checked.

 

Edit: wow such a size changer.

Edited by Themes, 10 August 2015 - 11:55 PM.

[Xellie]

But what would i post then?

 

As for actual content, my stance on legalising it hasnt changed. Knowing the GMs have been active but not making any impact leads me to believe that they currently dont have the proper tools or skills to take care of these problems. This is something we can solve. I never really expected the GMs to say "these are still illegal, we'll have people around watching" to turn into an instant ending of all forms of cheating. But they've had a few weeks to observe and nothing has been done, so it's time to put some pressure on them.

 

If you need help with what to look for or how/when to check we can help you out and provide you with solid examples. People are probably willing to be much more forgiving about not being able to place their firepillars if they see cheaters being removed and players being checked.

 

Edit: wow such a size changer.

 

This or they need to admit defeat

[Kebtung]

Legalizing autopot won't end the problem.

Especially if 3rd party autopot is allowed instead of built-in feature in client itself. I assume there are many autopot programs out there, the speed and intelligence of each program are different and thus still give unfair advantage. People will cry over the forum because their opponent's autopot is better than theirs. And how could you prove further that their 3rd party autopot doesn't have other illegitimate feature that give players even more advantages over the other? Voila, a new problem which could be harder to handle arises. 

 

Also you seem to think only for WoE and forgot about the other bigger half picture of the game, PVM. Legalizing autopot is like supporting it. There's no way this couldn't affect the delicate balance of gameplay in PVM scene. For examples, autopot could reduce (although not completely negate) the importance of having high HP. At the same time, autopot could render players with higher VIT virtually invincible to monsters (and mobs are not intelligent enough to work around this).

 

[needmorezleep]

People will cry over the forum because their opponent's autopot is better than theirs. 

in the time autopot has become widespread in ro this has literally never happened ever so if it did which i doubt iro would be the first

[VModCinnamon]

A pile of posts was omitted from this topic, going to quote myself:

 

Any further none constructive/troll post or an attempt to stir drama will not be tolerated, stay on topic or risk your posting rights.

 

 

[Kebtung]

in the time autopot has become widespread in ro this has literally never happened ever so if it did which i doubt iro would be the first

That's because autopot is not yet legal. I don't think people will do that to expose themselves.

 

So far there's only people crying to legalize it.

Edited by Kebtung, 11 August 2015 - 01:33 AM.

[Xellie]

A pile of posts was omitted from this topic, going to quote myself:

 

 

Yeah I deleted my posts (that's me that deleted them, not you).

You should probably merge the two threads or make a new one. These aren't really redeemable / makes no sense to have two.

[rockymom]

You'll have a lot of people dying because they forget to turn it on, and the fact that the GMs are doing something will stop enough people already. Need a server announcement before woe along the lines of, "We're monitoring woe today, and we're serious this time." I don't know who would set autopot to below 20%. Players need to be able to cast a spell at least too. When there's no action they might want to do that.

I still stand by what I said.

 

If the point of GMs monitoring of WoE is to catch players using cheats, why would they announce that they're monitoring? Just to let the cheaters know they need to play legit for a change?

/shy
 

[VModCinnamon]

Yeah I deleted my posts (that's me that deleted them, not you).

You should probably merge the two threads or make a new one. These aren't really redeemable / makes no sense to have two.

 

Plus 13 posts made under other posters.

Will look into merging the topics shortly.

[Xellie]

Plus 13 posts made under other posters.

Will look into merging the topics shortly.

 

Thanks cinnahun

[squirreI]

If the point of GMs monitoring of WoE is to catch players using cheats, why would they announce that they're monitoring? Just to let the cheaters know they need to play legit for a change?

/shy
 

 

The point of GMs monitoring woe is to stop players from using cheats, not necessarily to catch them. A little announcement will give players warning, and some of them will stop. A few temp bans later, risk will be known. It is a bad idea to ban players unnecessarily. It is a good idea to do something to make most of them stop, and then catch the stragglers.

 

Players have been lead to believe that there is no risk to using autopot. Some of these players are good players that should be warned first.

[Xellie]

The point of GMs monitoring woe is to stop players from using cheats, not necessarily to catch them. A little announcement will give players warning, and some of them will stop. A few temp bans later, risk will be known. It is a bad idea to ban players unnecessarily. It is a good idea to do something to make most of them stop, and then catch the stragglers.

 

Players have been lead to believe that there is no risk to using autopot. Some of these players are good players that should be warned first.

 

Do, tell us how much of the previous AP threads / the fact it's been declared illegal in multiple places weren't enough warning?