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#1 Feuer

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 04:15 AM

So the buff system. We've all ignored it long enough and abused the hell out of it. So why isn't it fixed? Why has the staff allowed this 'feature' to become the defining, definitive and SOLE system used to determine battle outcomes?

 

Blow is a video just demonstrating this MASSIVE gap between having buffs, and not. I recorded this 8/10/2015.

Now, I'm commenting on the buff system AT LARGE. I'm not differentiating between Cleric buffs, Class Stat Buffs, Boosters or anything else. Simply, the feature of buffing itself. And I'm also not going to get baited by the whole class to class comparison. Everyone here is well aware now just how broken the buffs are, when even level 1's first mission is to find buffs. 

 

https://youtu.be/nMhFTHeEZ6A

 

Notice, he's literally toying with me. He's in absolutely zero danger and he knows it. At the very end, I attempt to actually take him down. I throw everything I can, chain stun as perfectly as possible, interrupt with sleep. I quite literally pulled ALL the stops and went to the wall with it for 37 seconds. Soon as he got bored, he destroyed my character in a matter of fractions of seconds [2.7 to almost be exact]. 37 to 2.7 = took him 7% at minimum, as I never actually killed him. 

 

The buffing system should not be the way it is, so massively imbalanced that without them on a level field you stand no chance against someone who does of equal skill. 

Right now, the buff system is a feature, when it should be a fraction of the total components that make up a battle's outcome. 

 

Feature

noun

1.
prominent or conspicuous part or characteristic:
Tall buildings were a new feature on the skyline.
 
Prominent:
adjective
1.
standing out so as to be seen easily; conspicuous; particularly noticeable:

 

Fraction

4. [first relevant]

very small part or segment of anything; minute portion:

 

Currently, Buffing is more important that Skills Learned, Stats Distributed, and Relevant gear combined. It has the highest importance of all systems in game when it comes to the determination of how combat proceeds and if victory is acquired. 

 

This needs to be fixed, and slated NEXT for adjustment. 

 

The staff should:

lower the %'s and #'s

cap out the #'s to prevent abuse

pick a 'maximum' they want the combat to be affected. A 20-30-40-50%+ shift in balance from 1 system when it's only 1 of 5 systems and 1 of 7 combat aspects is just atrociously and blatantly broken. 

 

Obviously it would seem I'm mad/annoyed/upset etc given I took this post fairly seriously. But really it's just the fact at hand, it's imbalanced. Pretty simple. 


Edited by Feuer, 10 August 2015 - 04:19 AM.

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#2 MarK1789

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 05:21 AM

unbuffed pro and fully geared for pvp VS noob w/ full cleric + stat buffs.. the pro will stand no chance, just by kiting the noob will toy with the pro with its massive mspd buff

 

in DG...

no cleric = leave or suffer until you finish DG

w/ cleric = easy GG WP

 


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#3 DoubleRose

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 05:36 AM

Yet another pvm nerf, so no. Why do this when there is a much easier option? Just add buffing npcs to pvp game arena.


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#4 Feuer

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 06:49 AM

Again, giving everyone the same thing is no different than removing it all together. And if PvM is scaled so much to the buff mechanics, that only proves my point even more. 


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#5 Fishnet

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 07:17 AM

I've been playing this game on/off since IRose days, so a very long time.  Cleric buffs have always been the number one thing to try and get. Back then I don't remember the buffs being this powerful. Buffs now seem way overpowering. Whether in PvP or PvM.

 

I agree something needs to be done about it. Specially now that more and more classes have their own buffs. It really takes away from the game. I always thought clerics should have the buffs and none of the other classes. By that I mean party buffs. One or two self buffs are fine. I think the buffs and their power is one of the biggest downfalls in the game. You don't have to work to level up and certainly don't use the worlds as I feel they were intended to be used.


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#6 Feuer

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 01:12 PM

This wasn't a proposal you idiots. 


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#7 Banrukai

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 01:20 PM

This wasn't a proposal you idiots. 

 

That one was obvious.

Seems to me that maybe you have been PvP'ing too much lately, and the outcome has not been what you want. Thus resulting in you being angry, and trying to find something to blame.

Maybe try some PvM man, or take a walk outside.


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#8 Feuer

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 01:28 PM

Entirely the opposite. Majority of my time is spent farming Dungeons, and trust me Dungeons are a painful experience without buffs, and many encounters impossible without them combined with heals. 

 

The impact on BOTH aspects of the game is obviously the definitive influence and it needs to be fixed, properly. Not a hot fix, not some lazy excuse. Take it apart, put in the limits and form the system around the intention, preferably one that combat doesn't shift more than 5-10% with buffs compared to without. 


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#9 DoubleRose

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 02:09 PM

Again, giving everyone the same thing is no different than removing it all together.

 

No, it's not. Having no buffs, specifically the movement speed buff, gives ranged characters a far greater advantage. To anyone who has ever played any pvp video game it is painfully obvious that mobility is far more important on melee characters than on ranged ones.

 

Both players are sped up by an equal amount, but that benefits melee characters which are inherently weaker because they have to commit to attacks while ranged can stand still while fighting from 40m away.

 

Without buffs a scout will be able to indefinitely kite you. The flat reduction on their movement speed slow will be significant against your simple base movement speed.

 

Buffs counter the ranged player who stands still and and fires at someone who is running in to attack. It is a zero sum change only while the ranged person starts running away or chasing. Even then it makes it a lot easier for the melee character to find a new target. Meanwhile the extra speed doesn't help the ranged character since they were already within range to attack someone new.


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#10 Feuer

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 02:42 PM

The flat reduction on their movement speed slow will be significant against your simple base movement speed.

 

Again, a part of the 'buff' system, a status down is just an inverse buff. If the buffs were removed, and the slow is proving to be a game break issue, then as part of the buff system overhaul it should be reduced. 


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#11 DoubleRose

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 04:43 PM

Your video evidence tells me very little because it's a single example. Also, there is no telling what gear discrepancy exists. I'm not going to pull up the exact thread, but you've previously said that your gear is not fully refined. You said to not bring up classes, but you cannot deny the fact that katar raider has the highest dps while launcher arti is a wonky class in terms of skills and items.

 

There is no proof that pvm has been ramped up to accommodate strong buffs, especially because buffs have always been strong. I think pvm is hard to make botting harder and to encourage leveling in parties.

 

All I said was pvm would be harder with weaker buffs. If you haven't noticed, all these pvp changes end up being pvm nerfs. Dual raider used to be a great pvm class, but nerfs across the board to their aoes and the gutting of freezing assault crippled their ability to fight mobs and to battle kings. Additionally, part of their power is now allocated to a skill that doesn't even work on monsters.

 

You said in your post that level 1s first look to find buffs. That tells us that people coming to this game with knowledge of rose in general- a returning player or someone from a pserver etc- remember buffs because it's an iconic part of the game. It's a tradition in all versions of rose and something that they accept. I know this has been said by other people but that only reinforces the statement.

 

It would annoy clerics who spent billions getting the right sets and clans who spent millions of cp on the charm passive.

 

Even if buffs were nerfed, I still think movement speed should not be touched for the reasons I listed before. Also, it is unique in that it doesn't affect damage or durability.

 

I agree that there is an inherent flaw when the power of your character is hardly under your control. You have no influence over buffs and they make players a lot stronger. Fixing this would of course be great, however, I still say it sounds like way more work than adding stat buffers to game arena maps. This needs nothing more than a band-aid solution because there are more important things to be done and limited resources in order to them. I'd like to see buffs fixed, but I'd rather see Orlo finished and artisans reworked.


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#12 MarK1789

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 06:45 PM

giving a temporary fix to this issue is good which is to put npc buffers that gives buffs equal (in terms of strength and cost) to that of those pvp battle pots, not only in GA PVP but also in towns or spawn points for the new comers, Cause face it, the current system failed to amuse newcomers and i honestly think it will take some time for the devs to make their decisions or to think about the fix in this issue.

 


Edited by MarK1789, 10 August 2015 - 06:47 PM.

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#13 TrollRose

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 08:04 AM

The problem happens if the group in action is small, but it isn't a big problem if the group is bigger because you will have a higher chance to see a cleric in your team, but I can't open my mouth anymore because forum mod will delete them for sure.


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#14 Feuer

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 08:26 AM

Your video evidence tells me very little because it's a single example. Also, there is no telling what gear discrepancy exists. I'm not going to pull up the exact thread, but you've previously said that your gear is not fully refined. You said to not bring up classes, but you cannot deny the fact that katar raider has the highest dps while launcher arti is a wonky class in terms of skills and items.

 

You cannot honestly expect me to believe I'm bringing this up as a new issue and that hundreds of examples haven't been experienced by players of every caliber. I don't exactly think I need to build an entire portfolio to prove something every person has experienced. It's common sense.

 

There is no proof that pvm has been ramped up to accommodate strong buffs, especially because buffs have always been strong. I think pvm is hard to make botting harder and to encourage leveling in parties.

 

No proof that it's been ramped up, but in the very next sentence you claim it's 'harder'. Compared to when? Before the buffs got increased? There's your proof right there, you just said it.

 

All I said was pvm would be harder with weaker buffs. If you haven't noticed, all these pvp changes end up being pvm nerfs. Dual raider used to be a great pvm class, but nerfs across the board to their aoes and the gutting of freezing assault crippled their ability to fight mobs and to battle kings. Additionally, part of their power is now allocated to a skill that doesn't even work on monsters.

 

So what? I'm tired of these bandaid fixes. If PvM becomes harder [which would be a blessing cause it's a joke anymore] and if it becomes TOO hard, then obviously it WAS based around buffs and should be PROPERLY* addressed. These little bandages patching up the system only leaves it frail to future changes. 

 

You said in your post that level 1s first look to find buffs. That tells us that people coming to this game with knowledge of rose in general- a returning player or someone from a pserver etc- remember buffs because it's an iconic part of the game. It's a tradition in all versions of rose and something that they accept. I know this has been said by other people but that only reinforces the statement.

 

What it reinforces is that they will literally refuse to play without them. Level 1 takes 30 seconds to hit 2. 2 Beans in fact. The fact they won't even kill those 2 beans to level without Buffs shows just how engrained the system is as a requirement for further content in game. That's what it proves. 

 

It would annoy clerics who spent billions getting the right sets and clans who spent millions of cp on the charm passive.

 

So what you're saying, is that it will irritate people because of a 'wasted imaginary currency'? ROSE is the only game where people actually will spend billions of currency on items that should have been LONG past obsolete. Most charm items don't even have a level requirement. Usable at level 1 with exception to the Doll, [some weapons] Jewelry. The rest is all Level 0. In any other game people accept that as time progresses, items obsolesce and lose value. This allowance that ROSE has to continue usage of items that are beginning game play is just a bad habit that needs to be corrected for a proper and healthy game environment to occur. 

 

Even if buffs were nerfed, I still think movement speed should not be touched for the reasons I listed before. Also, it is unique in that it doesn't affect damage or durability.

 

You're completely avoiding that Those ranged classes have access to movement speed passives that are stronger than melee range fighters.

Hawkers have a 150 mspeed passive.

Dealers have a 100 mseed passive.

And Mages have a huge mspeed proc from wind, and massive slows from Ice. Not to mention rampant stuns from fire + shock. 

Clerics also have an Mspeed proc from mana shield.

 

Soldiers being  'THE' melee class, don't have any movespeed pasives and only the spear has a proc. 

The base work for movespeed to allow kiting classes to maintain that function is already there. 

 

I agree that there is an inherent flaw when the power of your character is hardly under your control. You have no influence over buffs and they make players a lot stronger. Fixing this would of course be great, however, I still say it sounds like way more work than adding stat buffers to game arena maps. This needs nothing more than a band-aid solution because there are more important things to be done and limited resources in order to them. I'd like to see buffs fixed, but I'd rather see Orlo finished and artisans reworked.

 

What is more important than fixing the ground work that future content is placed on top of? Further level caps and higher stats on Gear are only going to continue amplifying this situation until it's completely incapable of being fixed with quickie patches and temporary fixes. You can only push a flawed system so far before it just implodes. 

 


Edited by Feuer, 12 August 2015 - 08:28 AM.

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#15 KatsuraKujo

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 08:50 AM

even with cleric as a main myself i cannot agree more to what feuer has to say, as much as don't want to as well.

 

Few questions to answer before anyone continues further

1. Is a dungeon run with no cleric able to finish the entire dungeon? (NO BUFFS) (no mage cuz i know if there's a few mage it is possible)  

2. Why is ANY pvp game in this case AA, noone goes fight if the other team is completely buffed with cleric?

3. Why are newbies having a hard time leveling?

4. Why does EVERY NEWBIE and i mean EVERY ask anyone with a wand for buffs?

5. WHY does people want to have buff stations in the 1st place in all maps?

 

The answer to all of this is so simple. 

 

I've already tried to suggest new ways to fix the issue with buffs, feuer didn't stand back at that either, he also has suggested some interesting concepts to clerics, and ALL of us know he hates clerics, so its something unique.

 

1. Mine is make the buffs cap off at a point of different levels for example the noob buff. The system would work the same only instead of lower get more its the other way around.

 

2. Lower buffs of all offensive types and some defensive type buffs (other than def, mdef, mspd) to a point pvp CAN be possible with or without cleric on either side of the teams.

 

3. in compensation to buff going down, pvm mobs WILL have to go down as well because all of it has to compensate with that the new system is. So yes, pvm will remain pretty much almost the same. The only effect is pvp, which is basically what most people wanted. 

 

I believe i said this somewhere before, so this would be my last time, so bored of the same kind of topic with feuer + random dude (sometimes me but i've come to realize crap) about buff systems. Like seriously


Edited by KatsuraKujo, 12 August 2015 - 08:53 AM.

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#16 Feuer

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 09:09 AM

Katsura, I just want to clarify something. I hate what the concept of ROSE Clerics are. I love healing specs in most games, but the Cleric doesn't feel like a hero, it feels like a slave to the system. That is why I hate ROSE Clerics, you're not free to play them the way you can freely play any other class. 

 

https://forums.warpp...and-1-big-post/

 

And that was my official proposition. 


Edited by Feuer, 12 August 2015 - 09:12 AM.

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#17 DoubleRose

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 09:51 AM

Sorry the quote function isn't working for me but I'll try my best to be clear.


Leo specifically said mobs are more dynamic and scale up in intensity when killed quickly. That is to counter people who stand in a single spot and aoe without ever changing their strategy (botters). Botting does not exist because of good buffs. Most botters I see don't even have buffs, and I see a lot of dead botters because without a human playing and without buffs the game is too hard. The cause of botting is that the levels after 200 are a hardly interactive grind which is definitely something that can be improved upon.

 

A level 1 will always be incentivized to get buffs even if buffs get gutted because the flat number on buffs will always be significant to someone who has minimum stats.

 

I avoided talking about classes specifically because your post said said "I'm also not going to get baited by the whole class to class comparison"

However, what you said about soldiers is wrong. Champions actually have two movement speed passives totaling up to 150 speed, champion's footing and champion's training, though the latter is unique.

 

You complained that most charm gear is a one time purchase. It's entirely possible that new end game charm gear will be released with the Orlo update. It would make sense to add because the currently optimal charm gear is IM. Doing so would make those IM items about convenience but not power because they would end up getting out scaled. That would be a good thing to suggest, though that was not part of your ideas.

 

Fixing ground work is incredibly important, but the dev team is small. Focusing on underlying problems means no new content which makes it hard for players to want to stick around. The npc buffers would be relatively easy to implement and would straight up fix the symptoms of the problem. There's nothing wrong with putting in a temporary solution and new content to give players things to do and enjoy while the devs examine how to change the buff system.

 

PS.

I'm not disagreeing with the results of your video, just your methodology. I guess it doesn't really matter, but I find suggestions much easier to implement if you can convince the devs that it is a good idea. I agree with your video and its message, but you might want to look up the definition of confounding variables. The video is presented as if it is some sort of evidence, but just showing a single video where there are other factors involved provides no data. How did you know he only took 7% damage? Did he tell you? If so, was he lying? Some of your other pvp videos have shown you pvping in GA events and the difference between when you are buffed and when you are not is quite clear. It's a more fair comparison because it is the same character in both instances.

 


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#18 Feuer

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 10:30 AM

Notice I'm not going to go for your botter bait. People bot because they're lazy urchins and want things for free. Nothing more.

 

And you're starting to direct the topic to the details. The point is they're imbalanced, and nothing is being done about it. They've had 2 chances now to replace the current CHA items with better End Game options and have refused to do so.

The 220 Exalted Release

The 220 Valor & Honor Release.

They're not going to replace one of their best profiting items for free, not unless they can find a way to make a new way to replace that income first.

And honestly, I don't care if they do keep that tactic, what I want them to do is reduce the power difference between buffed and not buffed to where it's not completely game breaking. 

 

I mean, look at what Katsura just said

Noobs immediately ask for buffs.

GA's are mostly impossible to run without Buffs/heals.

AA's people won't even pretend to fight against a team with buffs if they don't have them.

The reason CHA items cost billions, is because the system is over powered! If the system wasn't able to be manipulated like it is, the items never would have costed that much to begin with. 

 

It's all very obvious, and posting a video to remind people what it's like isn't evidence, it's jsut a reminder that this crap-tastic system still exists. 


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#19 DoubleRose

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 05:18 PM

Even if buffs weren't powerful I think players without buffs would still back down in in GA's because there's still the psychological effect of feeling disadvantaged. Same thing goes for noobs asking for buffs if they see a cleric. But I still think it's at least worth request charm substats on high level gear. Look at the change that happened to boosters- it came because there was a clear demand for it.
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#20 Feuer

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 08:09 PM

Now how would you know until anyone's tried it? We've had several chances where there were no buffers on either team, and honestly those matches were far more fun than what we normally have. 


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