19 replies to this topic

[Xellie]

See also : here and my posts from about 2 years ago.
 
Guild dungeons are used as the primary source of supply for guilds on iRO Classic. Whilst in itself this is sort of a flawed mechanic by giving the winners what they need to keep winning by blocking out new competition, it is made worse by the imbalances between the guild dungeons.
 
Here is the density data for the GDs (credit: Shomaye/Themes)
 
Luina : 60 total box dropping monsters, 7397 walkable tiles (200x200 total) ~123 tiles per monster
Valkyrie : 120 total box dropping monsters, 32340 walkable tiles (300x300) ~269 tiles per monster
Baldur : 60 total box dropping monsters, 27688 walkable tiles (240x240) ~461 tiles per monster
Britoniah : 57 total box dropping monsters, 24192 walkable tiles (300x300) ~424 tiles per monster
 
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that in Britoniah you have to travel far and wide to find one of the very rare spawning mobs that drop the boxes. The small GDs are populated with Lord Knights soloing, where as Britoniah would be great for other classes. (Baldur is kind of annoying for everyone, but it's very unfriendly toward mobbing). So party play isn't happening, nor is conflict.
 
Previously, the argument could be made based on which god item parts were available in that realm. But lets be honest. It doesn't matter. Interest and value of pieces has only declined over the years and there's little to no reward now unless you're in certain guild dungeons.
 
Guild dungeons are part of the reward for WoE and they should be equally rewarding, even if in different ways. Previously I suggested that different dungeons supply different items to open trade between players, but just being able to farm a roughly equal number of GSBs in the same amount of time would be great. Small guilds shouldn't have to fight big guilds in order to supply themselves.
 
Furthermore, the GDs could probably be made a bit more rewarding via exp buffing. It'd be nice to see them populated again.
 
Lastly, there's some weirdness going on with the drops. After some drop event a few months ago, buffs made to GSB rates were completely destroyed without warning and had to be fixed after much forum ado. It could be worth looking at the drop rates for certain items as they are listed at 0.00% on the official drop rate release for fansites.
 
The items in question are:
 
Ancient worm (1305) : Bowman scarf(2727) - correct drop rate would be 0.06%
Cremy fear (1239) : icarus wing (2726) - correct drop rate would be 0.06%
Gajomart (1309) : principles of magic vol1 (2131) - correct drop rate would be 0.21%

 

And I think there's one other based on this data but it escapes me.

 

lawl also at 0.00% in GD if anyone cares ( I know I don't)

 

zombie master :  legbone of ghoul - correct drop rate would be 0.02%

killer mantis : Loki's Nail - correct drop rate would be 0.02%

 

Note on those drop rates : low level equip items shouldn't really be dropping that low 0.02%, that's card rate and makes no sense for an item only used mostly by newer/mid-tier players

 
My best guess is these drops got messed with at the same time as the GSB drops got all weird.

 

Please look into it, ty.

Edited by Xellie, 14 August 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

Improvements should be made. I was against it in the past but have since tried to use the other GD's and they are a waste of time. It would be very productive to have them all useable. 

[Xellie]

I think the first thing I'd suggest is a straight up double of britoniah spawns. (minus GR/DI/DL)

[schia]

an alternative would be to increase the drop rate proportionally to their spawn density.  Not all classes can handle super mobby maps, let alone smaller guilds. 

 

Or we could vary the maps up, and have one dungeon have even lower spawns but buff up the individual spawns to be lower tier mvp levels in monster stats while increasing their drop rates significantly.  LIke 30 total mobs on the map all on a 30 minute respawn timer, each mob being like eddga to bapho in difficulty while doing some interesting skills that requires a small party to manage.

 

Better yet, just remove the stupid supply boxes and stop rewarding the winners.  Unlimited supplies to the winners of woe is hardly necessary when the bigger guilds have already done their best to stomp out any relevant competition.

 

But since i posted this, i'm automatically wrong so feel free to disagree with why adding variety is a bad thing.

[Xellie]

Or they could add a global GD style map so that WoE victory isn't a precursor to supply/pvp dungeon hunting.

 

The guild dungeons are, by design, pre-trans maps. The monsters are not difficult by any means and even with a density double in britoniah, the map won't be particularly mobby.

 

I think the gsb drop rates should be a thing for sources external to WoE. Bio3 for example is good, but out of means for start ups. TI reward options would be a better alternative.

 

I do believe the 4 dungeons should be equally difficult but with it's own rewards. And the reason for that is that the castles and the rewards from the castles are a factor too. With a guild dungeon with higher reward, you may end up with large guilds bullying small ones out of the realm. (Actually this happened on renewal in Luina)

 

@schia's last comment. Not necessary. It's possible to disagree with someone's idea for reasons beyond who posted it. I'd prefer it if you kept dramatic statements like that out of threads designed to discuss improvements for Classic. I respectfully read your posts because they are related to the topic.

Edited by Xellie, 14 August 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[Themes]

I donno about doubling the spawns in Brit, I'd rather we eased into it a little bit. I dont think just making their monster:tile ratio equal will actually make the maps 100% equal, their total size and layouts play a big factor. There's also the problem that if you bring the spawn rates up, you just move the LKs from Luina/Valk to the other maps as all they care about are super dense maps and monster type/stats really dont influence their choice at all.

 

We were talking about it like this the other night. Around each player you've got ~729 tiles in which a monster can render, so if you look at a dungeon like Luina you should see 5-6 monsters per screen if you were to randomly teleport around the map. The others are obviousy like 1-2 monsters a screen. It's a pretty big difference, even in Valk I find myself walking 2-3 screens to find a suitably sized mob to kill on LK, just because of how large the total mapsize it and by the time I'm done walking around the map things are packed incredibly tightly in the last couple of corridors.

 

I've mentioned increasing the drop rates before, but it's really hard to justify because when we get the huge rates piled on us (drops and VIP event) the drop rates are already quite high. It'd just be easier to make the maps a little more dense, but I'm not against one or two percent if the maps are going to stay emptier to give weaker classes/players a better shot.

 

The drop rate thing is nuts, I cant believe it hasnt been addressed in the amount of time we've known about it.

 

I will say though, I do like the idea of a smallish map with higher drop rate and actual PvP. Ideally you'd aim for something a bit harder than the current monsters to discourage people from easily just soloing it and to bring a friend or two, but you'd have to put a bit more thought into it as I get the feeling after long it'd just end up like the current dungeons and just solo farmed anyway.

 

 

Edited by Themes, 14 August 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[Xellie]

LKs will deplore brit because of the agi down spam / curse spam / JT spam / grimtooth. It's much more suited to exorcist priests and wiz/priest duos.

 

The issue is they can get better exp elsewhere, so making it comparable to magma for parties like that is what I'm thinking.

 

 

Similar thoughts on Baldur, tho I can see nothing good about more mobs that strip and break armor like crazy

[Rate]

baldur most fun

[schia]

Or they could add a global GD style map so that WoE victory isn't a precursor to supply/pvp dungeon hunting.

 

The guild dungeons are, by design, pre-trans maps. The monsters are not difficult by any means and even with a density double in britoniah, the map won't be particularly mobby.

 

I think the gsb drop rates should be a thing for sources external to WoE. Bio3 for example is good, but out of means for start ups. TI reward options would be a better alternative.

 

I do believe the 4 dungeons should be equally difficult but with it's own rewards. And the reason for that is that the castles and the rewards from the castles are a factor too. With a guild dungeon with higher reward, you may end up with large guilds bullying small ones out of the realm.

 

@schia's last comment. Not necessary. It's possible to disagree with someone's idea for reasons beyond who posted it. I'd prefer it if you kept dramatic statements like that out of threads designed to discuss improvements for Classic. I respectfully read your posts because they are related to the topic.

past trends has you and your followers disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing even when i state the exact same idea or proposals.

 

Also, what you suggested is exactly what i suggested in the past which resulted in you disagreeing with because whatever i don't care what your reasoning is.

 

So don't be fickle on your opinions based on who stated them. 

 

 

GSB style rewards for TIs would be the most open ended approach to solving the availability of GSB issue.  Giving players an option for exp or gsb tokens would give an incentive for partying while also opening woe supplies to lesser guilds.  It would also standardize the drop rates for supplies while also not penalizing players for not using VIP or gums.  You could then customize the quests amounts/cooldowns to control the rate of supply gain as needed.  Giving players an option of say, 1000 kill count TI with a weekly cooldown and scaled rewards might be more appealing to casual guilds due to time investment issues.  The same style of rewards can be shoved into other group oriented content such as a weekly reward for ET.  Probably 1, 2, 4, and 4 gsb token rewards per player for the 25/50/75/100 floor completed.  Perhaps tying this with ashes of darkness for a final modifier to reward/penalize full party wipes would also give more incentive for higher levels of play.

 

This would also always ensure that group play is always appealing regardless of the status of player/guild.  Concentrating players together would also give the illusion of higher server population and would hopefully solve a lot of the 'lol ded servar' complaints.  Once rates/quest rewards are fine-tuned, the only responsibility left would be to rotate the TI quests around for variety purposes.

 

 

Moving GSB's out of guild dungeons would also free up guild dungeons for more interesting options.  Perhaps an open pvp challenge dungeon might be interesting.  An announcer that announces when that map is active might also be interesting as currently guild dungeons are pretty much dead of any relevant fights.

 

TL:DR server reset.

[Gn1ydnu]

GD is still a good place to hunt. I like the optional TI ability for GSB. I would just want to see it at "higher" level areas to help prevent botting, which the GSB system has helped out a lot against. 

[Xellie]

Yup Schia.

[schia]

Yup Schia.

 

[Themes]

Yeah I was thinking about doing  the temporary type pvp enabled dungeon, you could have it open during set times each day and maybe have people activate it themselves for 30 minutes with some kind of a donation. It's an interesting concept to explore and could be a lot of fun if done right.

 

Definitely support the turnins for tokens/GSBs etc. It'd be a cool system to implement and you could add the tokens to all kinds of things. It's kind of what we were looking at for the proposed KVM system, having 3-4 different available from different sources all used to buy items. If we're not going to be getting New World it'd be a good way to make the gear available and encourage people to participate in a bunch of different areas of the game.

[Xellie]

omgosh a donation activated dungeon with pvp and gsb?

 

so in.

[Themes]

You'd probably have it open for an hour during peak hours for the servers main population bases then have people donate something (items? zeny?) to open it temporarily for maybe 30 minutes, that way if there's anyone trying to freeload you can just fight them. You'd want the map to be small-ish, probably no larger than Luina at 200x200. Not sure what you'd do about monster difficulty, but making everything in there Demi would be cool so people can wear their PvP stuff to juggle monsters and players.

Edited by Themes, 14 August 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[Xellie]

bio2 difficulty sounds about right if it's pvp enabled and use one of the top floor thana maps? or similar to the creation dungeon mobs

 

could make it opened for an hour at a time of choice w/ donation, but globally announced so people can come destroy you

Edited by Xellie, 14 August 2015 - 01:26 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

Loki has so much potential. That's why I love this serva.

[Themes]

Oh yeah it'd be 100% guaranteed to be global announced, you couldnt sneak it open to farm by yourself.

 

Bio2 stuff isnt that hard, but if you were swarmed under by stuff and had to handle PvP stuff too. Would you have one or two Boss property things to keep the stealth classes honest? It'd also be interesting to have a pseudo MVP that spawned every 5 hours (or whenever the dungeon was just naturally open).

[Xellie]

boss or demon

[Xellie]

this is need