53 replies to this topic

[Saturn33]

With the Battle Tactics change somehow feels like waiting to eternity, here I have a suggestion on the change.
 
Structure:
Before we touch the core structure, I would like to let the Battle Tactics Skill Multiplier remain at the same value, i.e. 0.2% for Level 1, and 0.4% for Level 2.
 
Okay, let's start:
With this suggested change, Battle Tactics will now make use of both AGI and INT.
 
So how is the AGI and INT related in Battle Tactics?
Well, we will look into the core structure and formula now.
 
 
Core Structure of Battle Tactics:
 
Battle Tactics Effect = Battle Tactics Multiplier * Battle Tactics Index
 
Battle Tactics Index = (0.5 * AGI * INT)/(AGI + INT)
 
Battle Tactics Multiplier = 0.2% for Level 1, 0.4% for Level 2.
 
Critical Damage with Battle Tactics = 200% + Battle Tactics Effect
 
 
With such change, how we would make the best from Battle Tactics?
The core formula is the Battle Tactics Index. With this formula, the key to succeed in Battle Tactics is a balance between AGI and INT.
 
 
I will show some calculation here:
Let's say Raw Equipment, Acessories, Title, and Seed Rune give a player 1000 AGI and 500 INT by default, and he is on a Level 2 Battle Tactics.
 
Case 1:
In this case, he is going to add another 3500 INT all the way up with Bind Runes, Honing, Cards and Bonus Stats Points from default.
 
Now, AGI = 1000, INT = 4000.
 
Battle Tactics Index = (0.5 * 1000 * 4000)/(1000 + 4000) = 400
Battle Tactics Effect = 0.4% * 400 = 160%
Critical Damage = 200% + 160% = 360%
 
Case 2:
In this case with the new Battle Tactics change, he is now trying to max AGI and see how is the effect going, by adding another 3500 AGI from default.
 
Now, AGI = 4500, INT = 500.
 
Battle Tactics Index = (0.5 * 4500 * 500)/(4500 + 500) = 225
Battle Tactics Effect = 0.4% * 225 = 90%
Critical Damage = 200% + 90% = 290%
 
Case 3:
Well, he is not that satisfy with previous results. So now he is trying a balance approach between AGI and INT, by adding 1500 AGI and 2000 INT from default.
 
Now, AGI = 2500, INT = 2500.
 
Battle Tactics Index = (0.5 * 2500 * 2500)/(2500 + 2500) = 625
Battle Tactics Effect = 0.4% * 625 = 250%
Critical Damage = 200% + 250% = 450%
 
** Yeah, finally he got "The Result".
 
Case 4:
Instead of maxing Critical Damage, he is now thinking to improve his Critical Rate by invest more on AGI than INT, by adding 2000 AGI and 1500 INT from default.
 
Now, AGI = 3000, INT = 2000.
 
Battle Tactics Index = (0.5 * 3000 * 2000)/(3000 + 2000) = 600
Battle Tactics Effect = 0.4% * 600 = 240%
Critical Damage = 200% + 240% = 440%
 
** In this way, by increasing 500 AGI and decreasing 500 INT compared to Case 3, he have improved Critical, Hit, and Dodge by a slightly sacrifice of Critical Damage. This could be another good build.
 
 
Graph of Battle Tactics Index:

x = AGI, y = INT, z = Battle Tactics Index.
 
* From the graph, you could see by pushing a single stat (either AGI or INT) all the way just don't work well. You would need a balance between AGI and INT to get the best from Battle Tactics.
 
So The Key is now a Balance between AGI and INT.
 
 
Final Words:
Well, Battle Tactics is now more tricky with the change, you would have to adjust it with a balance between AGI and INT, or slightly more on AGI than INT. I believe this is better than the Current Battle Tactics System which is just mindlessly push pure INT all the way up. With the change and AGI involved, you will have the benefits of increasing Critical, Hit, and Dodge as well.
 
And for the Critical Damage with Battle Tactics, I wish majority of player will satisfy with the Damage Output, not too low and not too high like the Current Battle Tactics which can deal a Critical Damage of 1000% with 2000 INT or 1800% with 4000 INT. 
 
Thank you. 

Edited by Saturn33, 22 September 2015 - 12:14 AM.

[Greven79]

This concept is well-written, perfectly presented and creates a meaningful change. Well done!

 

I still hope you don't mind, if I comment a few points:

 

You wrote that you'd like to keep the existing 0.2% or 0.4% percentages, which is perfectly valid... yet arguable.

 

The skill description would have to altered anyways to highlight the relevance of AGI. So to me, there would be no significant downside to adjust the percentages as well. They are an essential part of your formula and therefore won't give the user much insight about the impact unless he knows the rest of the formula as well. He might ask himself: "0.4% of what"?

 

If...

 

crit_damage = 200% + (0.2% || 0.4%) * 0.5 * AGI * INT / (AGI + INT)

 

It would be easy to cut the 0.5 out and shorten the formula this way:

 

crit_damage = 200% + (0.1% || 0.2%) * AGI * INT / (AGI + INT)

 

So it might be even closer to the actual effect to mention 0.1~0.2% in the description.

__________

 

The next point isn't linked to your work alone, might sound as an offence, but surely isn't.

 

Over the past year(s), I've read many concepts and discussed this matter excessively. And it's at least really curious! Everyone seems to have his own idea about balance, yet the suggested bonuses differ greatly and are rarely reasoned. See, one suggestion limits Battle Tactics to +200% another to +1000%. And in the game I'm currently playing, a critical doesn't even deal twice the damage (i.e. granting a +100% bonus). So what to choose? How to argue about it? How could a response ever be anything but totally subjective?

 

How does it come that such an important question is left unanswered so often?

And how to value different concepts, if even the premise isn't clearly set?

 

As I've said, it's no offence! It's likely that there it no single, undisputable truth! But IMO there isn't much interest to search for one either.

__________

 

What I did in the past and would like to do here as well is to at least offer a basis for an argumentation:

 

Let's leave aside all the actual values and concentrate only on the wanted result!

 

This way, we might be able to at least limit the proper ranges! For example: I'd prefer, if a fight lasts for at least 10+ seconds (but no more than 30sec). This would allow me to use different skills and grant both sides enough opportunities to react in a unique manner, hopefully creating a both memorable and balanced encounter.

 

With such a premise however, I already limited the amount of damage an attack should deal. F.e. attacks should cause less than a 10% HP loss per second on average.

 

If the target would lose more than 50% of it's max. HP to an attack instead, a lucky x2 critical already results in a one-shot even without Battle Tactics. And the higher the BT-benefit, the lower the non-critical damage would have to be to prevent such an insta-kill. With a 400% crit. bonus, any attack that caues >20% HP loss would be already an insta-kill in case of a crit.

 

(Sure, some players might accept oneshots and there's no way to argue about preference, but I dare to claim that the higher the impact of sheer luck, the lower the general acceptance that it was 'fair' and enjoyable fight.)

__________

 

Aside from the question how much a specific attack should deal or not, it's also important to compare the skills towards each other. Here, I use values (the relations to be precise). F.e. no matter how much damage a normal 250% Bash deals in the end, a 1140% Rage Strike will deal 4.5 times as much instead (x6 against knocked down targets).

 

Add the benefit you want Battle Tactics to grant and check the maximum difference. F.e. let's assume a 400% bonus. Now, a critical Rage Strike would deal up to 24 times as much damage as a non-critical Bash. So independant of the actual damage, this scale now defines how valuable certain skills are. Because if you miss... you'll need many Bash strikes to achieve what a single lucky Rage Strike accomplished. Not hard to guess what players will focus on.

__________

 

Last but not least, it's rarely stated but always nice to know how marginal the bonus of Battle Tactics would have to be that players would consider not to spend any skill points on it. That then defines, whether a suggestion makes the skill optional or just a must-have that can lead towards "wrong-builds" or "mis-skilled" characters.

__________

 

To give a more precise answer: I pondered about all that above and my solution is that the BT-benefit shouldn't be much higher than 50% and that the difference between a basic attack and ultimate skill shouldn't be any higher than x4. A lucky crit. would then still be significant (x10 the damage difference) and would still result in noticable DPS increase, but wouldn't be unfair for my opponent or overwhelmingly crucial to the outcome of a fight.

 

That doesn't mean this suggestion is better than any other. But at least it's reasoned and that allows everyone to question the motives behind it.

 

Not long ago, I've heard of another idea:

 

Battle Tactics causes every attack to deal 30% more damage against knocked down targets. No special rules for Rage Strike.

 

Not my personal favorite, but it was reasoned as well. And because of that, it turned into a really good discussion.

Edited by Greven79, 13 September 2015 - 06:25 AM.

[Saturn33]

Yes, the Skill Description itself is the headache part, since a direct showing of formula is not preferable. But I still don't have any idea how to tell player about the form: { (xy)/(x+y) }.
 
 
Well, 0.1% and 0.2% sound more "Systematic" along with the Skill Level, can be a good change on this.
 
 
Yes, although the suggested change have bring down the Effects on Critical Damage, but certain Skill like Rage Strike itself already have a very high multiplier, which cause the Critical Damage still staying at a very high value, probably still a lot of work have to be done on balance issue.
 
 
And about the 450% Critical Damage Output is really a subjective matter, since certain player will feel it's still a high damage, certain player may complain the low Critical Damage Output ruined their class. There's really need a lot of testing and developer were to make the final decision.
 
 
Therefore, about the Battle Tactics Index formula:
 
Battle Tactics Index = (0.5 * AGI * INT)/(AGI + INT)
 
The (0.5) actually is a Parameter act as a "Scale" to adjust the Battle Tactics Index Level. I should have better to present it in this way:
 
Battle Tactics Index = (Scale) * (AGI * INT)/(AGI + INT)
 
To further lower down the Critical Damage Output, Scale can be set to 0.25, or even 0.1, or other value.
 
 
Well, let the Battle Tactics Skill Multiplier to remain at 0.2% and 0.4% is just to slightly reduce the work on developer side. But I feel 0.1% and 0.2% sound more systematic. 

Edited by Saturn33, 25 August 2015 - 10:34 PM.

[xkazehanax]

Couldn't agree more to this. But as we can see from Gravity's past practice - Buffing OP classes and nerfing weak classes since 2012.

 

[Saturn33]

Couldn't agree more to this. But as we can see from Gravity's past practice - Buffing OP classes and nerfing weak classes since 2012.

 

The SEA Legend is back. Boss, please advice. 

[xkazehanax]

The SEA Legend is back. Boss, please advice. 

 

Advice on what?@_@

 

As if I'm in any position to, haha. But am glad that people still remembers me :3

[Saturn33]

Advice on what?@_@
 
As if I'm in any position to, haha. But am glad that people still remembers me :3

 

Haha. 

Edited by Saturn33, 17 September 2016 - 07:35 PM.

[walk3r]

but i dont why ppl butthurt about swordies BT so much.

i dont mind nerfing BT, been using int after i hit lv 50 back then, is one of the skill that we hv. but is getting imba due to +50/+80 rune and honing, i wont deny that and again dont blame the class, blame the game for implement such item.

y no ppl talk about

> priest dot? even lvl 1 can kill u, war/sin/rogue dot? even maxed out also not as powerful as priest lvl 1 dot....

> sin/rogue can one hit 70k tank (fully refine and well geared)? yes war/k9 can one hit other with BT, but RS/shield cannon u hv to charge b4 u use it, but sin/rogue? do they need to charge b4 using their skill?

> OP crec pet system? 

 

if really nerf also ok fine oh wait dont nerf just remove it so all parties happy hahaha

so war can go back to agi build

[Saturn33]

Well, I believe all the imbalance classes will get an adjustment on their skills multiplier, by stage, just developer may start the workout with Battle Tactics first. The idea is they want a "change" on the Battle Tactics System instead of simply modify the skill multiplier, while other classes powerful skill like DOT probably can be balance out by modified the skill multiplier. 

[xkazehanax]

Nerf INT balancing for Knight/Warrior (whoever crit first win!)

Nerf DOT balancing for priest and crecentia (nuff said. 19k per sec DOT is haxor. Highest 10k still acceptable)

Nerf Assassin's shadow armor (Vigor sin just perma armor all the way, with GT 1 hit 10 kills all the time due to penetration buff)

Buff Beastmaster's survivability (They just roll into Knights and die from 1 crit, poor bears.)

Buff Wizard (wait, I don't even know in which way or how should wizard be buffed hahaha.)

Buff Rogue's dodge rate benefit from AGI for slight survivability since hit rate for everyone has been fixed or penetration. (or other skills... Rogue skills required too many skill points but too little benefit.)

 

Fix Shield Boomerang from bouncing into invisible characters around (this is just so lame -.-)

 

And then the game shall be balanced~

Edited by xkazehanax, 13 September 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[KuroiKoneko]

remove or nerf penetration for the god sake

[xkazehanax]

remove or nerf penetration for the god sake

IMO Penetration is working as intended, it also makes a certain class unique with its own respective use in some circumstances. It is also a stat that is very hard to obtain. Or else, nobody could kill a monk with 98.5% defense rate and 100k HP.

[sheenalee]

Well, I think everyone had the right to said about wht we think, here's wht I think of. There is no online game is balanced, I repeart again, there is no game is balance specially is online game. As a gamer n developer, tht is the issue tht keep players play your game if there is overpowering in each chareter which depands on the player to discover.
A balance game would be as boring as a chess game. Which was balance n boring.
Furthermore, player will gone as the changes of class is 2 often n mostly base on the feed back only here as most player is casual n semi hardcore player.
Pls reconsideration about this.

Edited by sheenalee, 13 September 2015 - 09:14 PM.

[Saturn33]

Well, I think everyone had the right to said about wht we think, here's wht I think of. There is no online game is balanced, I repeart again, there is no game is balance specially is online game. As a gamer n developer, tht is the issue tht keep players play your game if there is overpowering in each chareter which depands on the player to discover.
A balance game would be as boring as a chess game. Which was balance n boring.
Furthermore, player will gone as the changes of class is 2 often n mostly base on the feed back only here as most player is casual n semi hardcore player.
Pls reconsideration about this.

 

So the current Battle Tactics system actually working as intended to retain the player base? 

Edited by Saturn33, 13 September 2015 - 09:31 PM.

[xkazehanax]

Actually Battle Tactics are working as intended Pre-AOV patch. You still one hit people Pre-AOV with battle tactic if you have the right build and gears. As the time goes by and stats are easier to obtain (comparing +80 runes to +10 runes last time), while the skill remains the same, it has become overpowered. Anyone with the most basic gear can one hit anyone now. 

[sheenalee]

The game had developed rune +80 +50 and hone for all classes in ro2. Basically all online game was never be balance. Tht is wht online game all about. Tht is wht kept the player trying each new class over n over again where there is new way discover or not yet being define yet by the players.
As a result of nef or class balance issue was always meant to take away the old way of ppl playing the class to new ways. I believe 95% of the semi player who play sword class will be piss off n quite The game n wht u had to do was wait for another new player comes or sustainability the game by all this remaining hardcore player continue or vcr to given you massive idea on balance ( which online game will like to had unbalanced) to kept everyone happy.

[Saturn33]

The game had developed rune +80 +50 and hone for all classes in ro2. Basically all online game was never be balance. Tht is wht online game all about. Tht is wht kept the player trying each new class over n over again where there is new way discover or not yet being define yet by the players.
As a result of nef or class balance issue was always meant to take away the old way of ppl playing the class to new ways. I believe 95% of the semi player who play sword class will be piss off n quite The game n wht u had to do was wait for another new player comes or sustainability the game by all this remaining hardcore player continue or vcr to given you massive idea on balance ( which online game will like to had unbalanced) to kept everyone happy.

 

So the conclusion is:

 

An imbalance game is the way to retain the player base.

 

 

I think we should stop complaining about all the imbalance stuff, since it's the way to keep a player to stay in the game, which is what we want, we do not want to see ghost town everywhere. And VCR can take notes. 

Edited by Saturn33, 13 September 2015 - 10:40 PM.

[sheenalee]

This apply to all the game developers n other online game. A balance game meant only chessboard game. Tht is balanc game.
There is a great suggestions before where u vcr gm can Neff n change any status of this overpowering or balance issue. Just simple as below.

(1) remove the rune removal item n system from the game. Let the player can free input n out the rune of such status in all seed also to try out all your Neff or changes. So the player will very happy on each Neff or new Balance out to continually discover how tht class should be done.

(2) remove skill n status reset scroll from the game. As we all knw, each time rebalanced, this was wht most semi player face n hate all about. Remove this scroll n let the player to adjust their status n skill free and as many times as they was to suit their style in game.

P.s I am very sure the above-mentioned tricks can 100% success in game as u can always Neff n rebalanced the classes chareter. Furthermore, others online game do this now. ( blade and soul). Why dunt wp try it out? Others game they do had op n inblance, was tht is part of fun in game?.
Lastly, free ajust of skill n status n rune was the main key in solving this problem. Do considered.

Edited by sheenalee, 13 September 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[freakygin]

So the conclusion is:

 

An imbalance game is the way to retain the player base.

 

 

I think we should stop complaining about all the imbalance stuff, since it's the way to keep a player to stay in the game, which is what we want, we do not want to see ghost town everywhere. And VCR can take notes. 

[sheenalee]

Whtis vcr? Volunteer. The only few game where we still had this volunteer ppl who love the game lots which feel nice n great. But and a big but. Vcr is volunteer player. They are not real pro game tester but a feeback of advise n suggestions to the game designer
Their report n advice can be personalized, can be subjectively and also can be misfortunes.
Ro2 had loosen lots of player as it is because of the vcr comments which only gives input but no output blindly.
Lastly, no offense to any community, vcr program should also be adjustable ti more friendly player as the game no only seems rule by hardcore gammer where casual player as simply quite the game.
( simple question to vcr, you report the imbalance, did you considered how to aolve the problem or report the problem why player hate when u change the status

Firstly, rune removal. 2nd skill reset and status.

[KuroiKoneko]

IMO Penetration is working as intended, it also makes a certain class unique with its own respective use in some circumstances. I t is also a stat that is very hard to obtain. Or else, nobody could kill a monk with 98.5% defense rate and 100k HP.

You really don't know that actually def cap is 75% and more def protect you only vs penetration that thiefs and post-aov mobs\bosses have? lol
So classes without penetration hit 25% of dmg anyways

upd: or you think that if you got more than 100% def make you invulnerable? xD only dmg reduc can do so

upd2: btw FP mobs have 92300 def (95.8264%), Skull Knights have 13600 def (77.185%), Skull Archers have 9450 def (70.16%), osi mobs 3350 def (45.45% def), idk about jawaii mobs but guess even more

for 98..5% def you need to have 264000 raw def LOL

Edited by KuroiKoneko, 14 September 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[Saturn33]

(1) remove the rune removal item n system from the game. Let the player can free input n out the rune of such status in all seed also to try out all your Neff or changes. So the player will very happy on each Neff or new Balance out to continually discover how tht class should be done.

(2) remove skill n status reset scroll from the game. As we all knw, each time rebalanced, this was wht most semi player face n hate all about. Remove this scroll n let the player to adjust their status n skill free and as many times as they was to suit their style in game.

 
Yeah, we all want this.
 

Spoiler

Lol, end of story, I wouldn't want more player to quit because of the change. The player base is already a sad case, I wouldn't want it to get worse. 

Edited by Saturn33, 14 September 2015 - 04:50 AM.

[sheenalee]

Well is agreed n no doubt of the Def cap which was originally imposed by the community here where you all had complaints on the cost of infinium n refine eq to + 20. But, in a gd sign was, for new commers n player new to game. They nid not had to worry their eq refined as as long as you reach 80% Def ( which is normal for tanker class) u wont had to worry of refined eq or maybe just one or 2 only.
The totaly bad sign was, this really piss off for old player where we had used more effort n investment or resources in refine our gear +20 all where it doesn't given you the ultimate strength qe desire.

[Saturn33]

upd2: btw FP mobs have 92300 def (95.8264%), Skull Knights have 13600 def (77.185%), Skull Archers have 9450 def (70.16%), osi mobs 3350 def (45.45% def), idk about jawaii mobs but guess even more.

That bloody Defence Rate, no wonder my AOE like almost no damage on them. 

We are really sick of anything on DW, FP, and onwards. 

Edited by Saturn33, 14 September 2015 - 05:04 AM.

[Saturn33]

The totaly bad sign was, this really piss off for old player where we had used more effort n investment or resources in refine our gear +20 all where it doesn't given you the ultimate strength qe desire.

Can explain more on this? I couldn't get it.