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Where are all the clerics?


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#1 pdfisher

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 12:17 PM

I have noticed the complaints about the lack of FS clerics, and so I have a question for the community. Why have the number of active FS clerics dropped so much? What is the reason that people have people stopped playing them? If you used to play an active FS cleric, and stopped, please feel free to post why. I am curious as to if this is something that can be fixed. I will start. I used to play a FS cleric, and stopped when it got to the point that playing CD on her was too stressful. I would have a team of about 10 or so, and they would all run off in different directions, then yell at me to heal or res them. If I failed, they called me names. So I switched to Champ.


Edited by pdfisher, 01 September 2015 - 12:19 PM.

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#2 TaeNiMiku

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 12:20 PM

I heard some people saying it's stressing, especially when they get left behind and nobody cares after receiving buffs (AA situation I heard from some friends).

 

I wouldn't know much though, since mine's not maxed yet, hence no AA and only a few DG.


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#3 kumpiakot

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 12:38 PM

hi pdfisher do you still play actively like joining AA as cleric or other class? ign of your characters please thanks

Edited by kumpiakot, 01 September 2015 - 01:12 PM.

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#4 Feuer

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 12:44 PM

Clerics are almost no longer an enjoyable experience. They're demanded to build how the community of other classes wants them built. They're disrespected if they're not up to maximum standards. They're mocked if built for anything other than strictly Buffing as a main priority and Healing as a mandatory second. They're flamed if they can't keep up with the DPS in PvPs. Raged on if they don't res people who put their own character on a pedestal above the team [happens a lot]. 

 

Over-all, Clerics have become slaves to the system, this is why I deleted mine. Several Times. and will now Permanently refuse to play one until they are given to chance to not be slaves to this buffing system anymore, and can have truly flexible choices. I mean, Clerics have a TONNE of unrestricted skill build potential and can use NONE bu one of those options without being treated like the village leper. 

 

You want to know why the Clerics are vanishing? Look around at the world they have to play in, and you'll get it instantly. 


Edited by Feuer, 01 September 2015 - 12:45 PM.

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#5 TaeNiMiku

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 12:53 PM

Dumb suggestions:

 

For AA, try giving all game arena games a version where Clerics aren't allowed to join. (It'll hurt BCs though)

 

For everything else, let's let the Clerics have a special privilege to be protected from all bad-mouthing; any complaints to any Cleric can be punishable, or reported.

 

Take away all the party versions of all the buffs (and heals too if you want).

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Feel free to delete this post. It's just full of ramblings of a sleepy guy.


Edited by TaeNiMiku, 01 September 2015 - 12:55 PM.

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#6 Necromancer27

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 01:29 PM

Really nice post....i want to know the reasons too...


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#7 MarK1789

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 02:03 PM

the clerics ain't vanishing i think, but they don't join GA PVP's too, for many reasons.

 

I also think that clerics w/o end game gears are crap in GA PVP it's either you get your max upgrade end game set or be one the the most disrespected cleric inside GA PVP


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#8 MonnaLise

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 02:17 PM

I was playing my cleric activelly few months ago. Actually I geared up my cleric because "there was no cleric " in games when I play my fighters, so I wanted to play one. FInally I got a 220 set for it now. I don't play it often now because I want to gear my raider and champion. Thats all.

 

Its stressful, depends on your team and the opposing team. I dont get bad mouth when I play cleric, I do it when all my team mates run away from me and nobody caring to protect me :P


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#9 Bendersmom

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 02:26 PM

Wow, I tend to agree with Feuer lol.  The FS cleric is boring actually too.  

1. You run the slowest of all classes, yet are supposed to keep up with everyone.  Knights outrun FS clerics often.  Most FS clerics resort to using mounts to try to keep up but you are very vulnerable on a mount.  

2. No one protects the cleric unless you get to play with a group of people that you know and ask for help.

3. There are a ton of skills available for clerics but to be a FS cleric that indicates that you can fully support your team.  To do that you have to spend all of your SP on full buffs, heals, purify, res, bonfire of some kind, etc. and then try to have enough SP to get defense and block to try to survive a short time longer to heal ppl.  No room for extra skills.

4. AA I did on Sunday Attacking side, me as only FS cleric - Buff all up in charm gear.  Change to fighting gear, look around and all are already on their way to the side xtal.  Run after them, get attacked by 3 raiders because you are alone. Die.  Respawn and change to charm gear, buff up. change back to fighting gear.....but wait a team member or two just respawned...back to charm gear.  Buff everyone and change to fighting gear.  All have left you again.  Group members are yelling for heals in chat.  Take the time to explain that you can't leave the respawn because raiders keep killing you.  Group members die and need buffs, but you are now at the edge of the respawn area about to jump down, but group member yells at you for being waayyyy up there and not at the respawn spot so they can get buffs.  Wait for them, not taking the time to respond, change to charm gear, buff them up.  Jump down with them and change to fighting gear on the run.  Raiders attack again before you can get to your group but heal though it and keep plodding along.  Get to group, heal as can for a few min until ganged from all on opposing team, die.  Respawn and read in chat how the cleric has to help them or they can't win.  Reply something about FS clerics needing some protection to stay with them.  Get response that I should not play in charm gear and to change to good gear so I can heal them.  Really??? Ok all are buffed up and we wait to all go together.  Run to xtal area, hide in wall as I can or hide among my group, get off some heals and even a res with a few buffs then the group spreads out more and I get targeted by 3 raiders from the back again. Try to heal but crit locked or something, can't skill, can't heal, no help from team.  Die. The rest of the match was a repeat.  

does that sound like a fun way to play?  I did not see anyone else getting beat up by the rest of the group for not doing their part.  At no time did I feel as though I was a part of the fight really.  I was there to buff and heal if I could.  

 

5. Our FS cleric buffs are nothing compared to class charm buffer buffs. Personally I think classes should have the buffs with buffs spread out between all of the classes.  Give some to FS cleric obviously too but without so many buffs we could actually get some defensive and offensive skills and still have heals as our main skills.  

 

I would love to hear what other FS clerics feel but in general the character used to be a lot more fun to play.  At this point I have tried a lot of variations but I think being a buff slave is more the norm now than it even used to be.  A lot of that is probably the fault of the FS clerics but in general I think the attitude of players in game has really changed over the years.  


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#10 KatsuraKujo

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 04:02 PM

Same here, i agree with feuer.

I rarely play my FS anymore cuz, well people tend to be disrespectful when i play it. If i can't keep them alive they go "no heal?" if i can't go fast enough to heal them they scold me for being slow, if the whole team die due to stun spam and they themselves don't have enough def against it i get scold... People questioning my build for not having mana flames saying, "what the hell kind of build is that?"

So how am i suppose to enjoy playing it? ^^lll

So far i only actually play my fs with people i know, cuz truthfully, its god damn annoying to listen to people saying you're a noob when you've played so long.

Plus if any dungeon has a really good tanker already, the only need for me is to keep that person alive... not much a challange in that, and its too boring. I'll rather play my mage because that's more of a challange to keep alive because you really need to focus


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#11 pdfisher

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 05:12 PM

hi pdfisher do you still play actively like joining AA as cleric or other class? ign of your characters please thanks

 

Yes I still actively play on my champ, Gideonara. I don't do AA much, as I am more of a dungeon rat. As my original post said, I quit playing Cleric in PvP games, back when CD was still popular, and before the int to charm thing. I found then that as cleric I was considered nothing but a slave to my team mates, and disrespected horribly if I could not live up to their standards. I never received any protection, even though they knew the enemy would focus on me. Yet I was still supposed to buff, heal, purify, and res them. The stress was just too much, it wasn't any fun, so I quit. Now I only play cleric to help my friends.


Edited by pdfisher, 01 September 2015 - 05:14 PM.

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#12 DestinyDeoxys

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 05:25 PM

I never received any protection, even though they knew the enemy would focus on me. Yet I was still supposed to buff, heal, purify, and res them. The stress was just too much, it wasn't any fun, so I quit. Now I only play cleric to help my friends.

 

Buff plz tyty :p_idea:
 


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#13 lala09

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 09:41 PM

Back in the day, clerics were worshipped as gods (kind of)..... I remember when doing dungeons, whenever we got a cleric or two... we'd be the happiest party members in the universe, because we knew we had a higher chance of surviving... compare our party to other parties who didn't have any cleric members. 

 

Nowadays, I play my cleric, I'd camp in adventure plains and wait for newbs to come so I can give them boosts. Sometimes I like to roam around (from AP to Zant and Junon) searching for adventurers.  It's fun helping out others... but sometimes... it gets irritating to see people disrespecting clerics.


Edited by lala09, 01 September 2015 - 09:42 PM.

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#14 kwayan19

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Posted 01 September 2015 - 11:12 PM

If they nerf those stat buffs maybe ill play fs more... how can a group with puny cleric buffs compete with a full stated buffed group?

Also pts given to fs are low... I get more pts playing an offensive class... to get good pts in AA you have to deal at least 2m to 3m of healing inflicted
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#15 Bendersmom

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 01:23 AM

I don't want the cleric to be "everything".  I have played it for 10 years as my main.  But the present FS cleric has flatlined.  We used to get decent points in AA but now we die so fast if not on the more OP side and not protected. We get really low points because we are not a part of the action.  We are sideline players mostly there to buff.  We can't even get enough heals out to score points before we are killed.  Raiders pick us off so fast (I know that is the raiders job).  If we are a part of one side that is OP then we have a bit of a chance to get points and participate.  

 

So the big question is what is the answer?  What needs to change in game, to the class, to other classes to make the FS cleric more fun to play again?

 


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#16 pdfisher

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 05:50 AM

Well that is what I was aiming for. I discussion on what could be done to make the FS cleric fun again. I realize that changing people's attitudes is not up to the devs. or even us. Perhaps if they deal without us long enough, they will quit abusing us, but I doubt it. So that leaves gameplay, skills, builds, and equipment.


Edited by pdfisher, 02 September 2015 - 06:07 AM.

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#17 Tormented

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 05:53 AM

.........I used to play a FS cleric, and stopped when it got to the point that playing CD on her was too stressful. I would have a team of about 10 or so, and they would all run off in different directions, then yell at me to heal or res them. If I failed, they called me names. So I switched to Champ.

 

 

I heard some people saying it's stressing, especially when they get left behind and nobody cares after receiving buffs (AA situation I heard from some friends).........

 

 

Clerics are almost no longer an enjoyable experience. They're demanded to build how the community of other classes wants them built. They're disrespected if they're not up to maximum standards. They're mocked if built for anything other than strictly Buffing as a main priority and Healing as a mandatory second. They're flamed if they can't keep up with the DPS in PvPs. Raged on if they don't res people who put their own character on a pedestal above the team [happens a lot]. 

 

Over-all, Clerics have become slaves to the system, this is why I deleted mine. Several Times. and will now Permanently refuse to play one until they are given to chance to not be slaves to this buffing system anymore, and can have truly flexible choices. I mean, Clerics have a TONNE of unrestricted skill build potential and can use NONE bu one of those options without being treated like the village leper. 

 

You want to know why the Clerics are vanishing? Look around at the world they have to play in, and you'll get it instantly. 

 

 

the clerics ain't vanishing i think, but they don't join GA PVP's too, for many reasons.

 

I also think that clerics w/o end game gears are crap in GA PVP it's either you get your max upgrade end game set or be one the the most disrespected cleric inside GA PVP

 

 

I was playing my cleric activelly few months ago. Actually I geared up my cleric because "there was no cleric " in games when I play my fighters, so I wanted to play one. FInally I got a 220 set for it now. I don't play it often now because I want to gear my raider and champion. Thats all.

 

Its stressful, depends on your team and the opposing team. I dont get bad mouth when I play cleric, I do it when all my team mates run away from me and nobody caring to protect me :P

 

 

Same here, i agree with feuer.

I rarely play my FS anymore cuz, well people tend to be disrespectful when i play it. If i can't keep them alive they go "no heal?" if i can't go fast enough to heal them they scold me for being slow, if the whole team die due to stun spam and they themselves don't have enough def against it i get scold... People questioning my build for not having mana flames saying, "what the hell kind of build is that?"

So how am i suppose to enjoy playing it? ^^lll

So far i only actually play my fs with people i know, cuz truthfully, its god damn annoying to listen to people saying you're a noob when you've played so long.

Plus if any dungeon has a really good tanker already, the only need for me is to keep that person alive... not much a challange in that, and its too boring. I'll rather play my mage because that's more of a challange to keep alive because you really need to focus

 

 

Back in the day, clerics were worshipped as gods (kind of)..... I remember when doing dungeons, whenever we got a cleric or two... we'd be the happiest party members in the universe, because we knew we had a higher chance of surviving... compare our party to other parties who didn't have any cleric members. 

 

Nowadays, I play my cleric, I'd camp in adventure plains and wait for newbs to come so I can give them boosts. Sometimes I like to roam around (from AP to Zant and Junon) searching for adventurers.  It's fun helping out others... but sometimes... it gets irritating to see people disrespecting clerics.

 

 

Agree with all the main points from everyone above :thumb2:

 

Players forget they are in a party, a team - as you say they just go for broke and go for glory as individuals - forgetting all about the cleric.

 

They don't protect the cleric, go fighting before the cleric is ready herself/himself, run away too far for the cleric to help them - basically there are an awful lot of players that are just plain bad players or too self absorbed to be helpful in a party etc.

 

I no longer party players that are like that - I put up with it for so long, then will just leave the party and leave them to it. They can try bullying someone else.

 

As for builds I only have one or two clerics built to other players/recommended specs, but as they're not full lvl etc they are still as you say disrespected.

 

And that is why all my other clerics are having different builds etc mainly for MY playing of the game - not the wasters and bad players that just want you to continuously buff and heal them, despite them not looking after the cleric and helping the cleric stay alive.

 

So some of MY clerics that are built for soloing have no heals etc as they don't need them - it's surprising how many points that frees up :wink:

 

Some of my clerics are built purely for the support of my other characters - so the skillsets are different depending on who my cleric will be partying with from my other accounts.

 

I generally just pvm with no pvp etc - simply because of the other players attitudes and abuse they give out to the clerics, as well as their bad gameplay which cause the cleric major problems with the usual end result of the cleric dying and losing their xp.

 

When a player dies and loses xp we never hear the last of it - but when we tell them we died because they didn't do their job they just don't want to know and couldn't care less about our lost xp.

 

Yes, too many self absorbed players that think they are such good, fantastic players that can do no wrong :bang:

 

If that were true we'd have no problems as clerics and there would be more on show playing the game :blaugh:


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#18 Feuer

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 06:45 AM

I know I got some heat for it before, but my full vision is about to unfold. 

 

Remember back when I said clerics needed to be more restricted? To Having to choose either buffs or heals and not both, and everyone flipped out? I had a reason and I think I can safely say why. If you look around, people became used to them having both. In fact, in today's gaming environment on ROSE, they EXPECT it without question and take it for granted. 

Back when I pointed out that I had a feeling they should only be a healer, or only be a 'status support' and not both -at the same time**-, that was because of this situation. Clerics just aren't fun, they're buff sticks that people consider a part of their build, and act as if you not doing what everyone expects you to do, that you're somehow disobeying them and costing them their efficiency. It's so expected in fact, that most builds these days for PvP are built around the buffs they expect from a cleric. 

 

I really wanted to prevent it, and I did try to speak my piece. Now, we're at this very awkward phase and we can't exactly just 'back out', because even the clerics have become accustomed to having both sides of the support coin. So now we have to figure out how to even the playing field or at least drastically reduce that power gap between stat buffs and cleric buffs. In fact, dropping the cleric buffs down a small fraction of current stats, then mimicking the stat buffs to the newly formed cleric buffs, with a very small advantage [I'm talking like 1-2% more...] is probably the only way to get the results we actually need.

Less reliance on buffs.

Less EXPECTATION of buffs.

Less expectation of maxed buffs.

^ for ALL classes though.

 

I think that the real problem stems from that one core problem, people just expect to get the best, and have been for so long that they now take it for granted. Of course, there might be other ways to fix that problem, this is just what I had thought about almost 2 years ago now. But that is the core problem, people just expect too much, expect 1 person to carry a whole team while providing them the best buffs possible on demand. And when they don't get it, they rage and disrespect a player who's only trying to enjoy playing a game and have fun. And that's wrong. 


Edited by Feuer, 02 September 2015 - 06:48 AM.

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#19 pdfisher

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 07:11 AM

We have to try and come up with a way for Cleric to be fun again. You obviously gave this a lot of thought, and I like your idea Feuer. I think stat buffers are too op as it is, so this is probably the way we should go.


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#20 IAfjiBa

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 08:47 AM

My experience about playing as a Full support is.

 

1 - Sometimes I get negative feedback at me as ''No Heal!'' when I get this kind of feedback I always have a good answer. ''If you didn't get a heal its becuse am to busy healing my self, becuse there was no protecting.'' and no one comments aginst it. If people run away, am not gonna run after them. Am not their personal heal slave.

 

2 - Sometimes the survival side of Cleric are sometimes good and sometimes it's totaly worthless, but I heard a sentance and I got a very big tought about it and the sentance was ''Even if you max out your defensive skills on Cleric, you still die kinda fast.''. So I attacly gear differently and I think it's going even better now with my new build.

 

3 - The part of Cleric is a buffslave, sometimes happends to me also. Someone comes up to me and say ''Buff'', like am a automatic robat? Really? I just say ''Say the magical word'' and they say ''Please'' and then I will buff them. 

 

4 - 

 

 

They're demanded to build how the community of other classes wants them built. They're disrespected if they're not up to maximum standards.

 This quoute is pretty much the truth, one day I was doing some Game Arena (PVP) on my BC and I got so much hate. People said ''Fake Cleric!'' and that is so disrespectful. 

 

5 - It's a stressful work to be a Cleric, but I like to busy so maybe this is one of many reason why I like to play Cleric.

 

 


Edited by Buffiies, 02 September 2015 - 09:01 AM.

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#21 TaeNiMiku

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 01:27 PM

All I can say is that when in PvP Arena I do all I can to protect the Cleric. Not just with Protection, but to use all Taunt skills available to anyone targeting the Cleric. Sometimes though, it's either I'm a bad Knight or it's not enough that's why the Cleric gets killed.

 

I have been in too many situations in both AA and CD before that I always stay with the Cleric (even though most of the time I'm left behind since I'm slow, haha), but then It gets me frustrated when people, after receiving buffs, go like hell, all wanting to greedily get a kill.

 

Man, people sure have broken taste of fun nowadays. Sure I only get 0-120 pts at a time, but hey, I love my job. I do wish it will be that way again for the Clerics as well.

 

 


3 - The part of Cleric is a buffslave, sometimes happends to me also. Someone comes up to me and say ''Buff'', like am a automatic robat? Really? I just say ''Say the magical word'' and they say ''Please'' and then I will buff them. 

 

 

When I play as my Cleric during level up sessions, I really am annoyed when people do say like "buff" and the sort. Like what the heck? Don't they have an idea that I might be busy doing something, like, say, ADDING them to the group? Ahh boy. When this happens in dungeons or PvP arenas, I get both embarrassed and annoyed at the same time.
 


Edited by TaeNiMiku, 02 September 2015 - 02:47 PM.

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#22 Feuer

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 01:52 PM

All I can say has mostly been said, but on a side note: Miku, standing near the cleric is like the BEST way to generate points on a Knight. Whenever I'm playing a Knight in AA, I stay near the Cleric spamming all AoE taunts, Damages and Debuffs that I have. and since people are cluttering around the Cleric, pfft they start hitting me and reflecting damage to themselves just giving me more points. If built for actual skill damage etc, you are more effective over-all to the team instead of these weird meleeing Knights... 


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#23 Bendersmom

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 01:53 PM

In my mind there are a few things that I think we need to have happen before we can really make a lot of suggestions.

 

1. is that someone that has class stat buffers with max charm needs to do a comparison and post it here.  Compare the mspd buff from a FS max charm cleric to a class max charm buffer mspd, then aspd, etc.  once we know the differences it will help the game in general and then we can see where the main issues are coming from.  I think the stat class buffs are throwing things off even more than usual.

 

2. someone that has the various classes built for PVP fighting but also with max class stats (with what you use for buffing other players and yourself during AA) and compare them to the max charm FS cleric buffs as above.

 

3. try to figure out what, exactly, is making it less fun to play FS cleric and then what we can do to change that.

 

some of my suggestions for now:

I for one think that if the dex, aspd and crit stay as they are with the ability for class max stat buffers then the FS cleric definitely needs more def and block rate.  Everyone in game is dying faster but the muse classes die extremely fast. 

 

Cleric mspd has to be increased as a base stat.

 

There  is something (a lot of people say it is crit lock and I believe it is) that stuns us or makes it so that we can't even heal ourselves, that does not show up as a debuff or anything.  It happens often when being ganged by 2-3 raiders.  We are absolutely helpless then.  There is really no way for a FS cleric to counter act the hidden 2-3 raider attack.  We can't run even half as fast as them, we are crit locked and can't heal, and no one is usually around to help us.

 

I still think that the answer is to divide the buffs between all of the classes so that you would need a team to get all of the buffs.  The buffs can be distributed redundantly with more than one class having say the mspd buff, the aspd buff, etc. so that if you do not have one class in your group you should still be able to get all or most of the buffs.  Then the FS cleric will be a support cleric with heals and some class buffs.  But then be able to build their character a bit differently depending on what is important to each cleric.  I don't think we should be built offensively but we could add more def, block rate, and even have an offensive skill or two that would help the team like the sleep AOE.  Plus that way we could use the same char for PVM and quests solo.  That would leave healing as the special skill that clerics have.  Like Knights have tanking and raiders have the stealth.  


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#24 TaeNiMiku

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 02:09 PM

All I can say has mostly been said, but on a side note: Miku, standing near the cleric is like the BEST way to generate points on a Knight. Whenever I'm playing a Knight in AA, I stay near the Cleric spamming all AoE taunts, Damages and Debuffs that I have. and since people are cluttering around the Cleric, pfft they start hitting me and reflecting damage to themselves just giving me more points. If built for actual skill damage etc, you are more effective over-all to the team instead of these weird meleeing Knights... 

 

Haha, same thing here. I just really feel guilty if they still are able to kill the Cleric while I'm around. I'm not much for points really; I just want to do my role (as heck it's fun to tank and annoy Raiders especially when you have reflect on, then like stun them when they get close), so it feels bad when they're killed while I'm still around.


Edited by TaeNiMiku, 02 September 2015 - 02:13 PM.

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#25 Feuer

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Posted 02 September 2015 - 02:15 PM

I actually made a proposal in the 'I WISH' thread that gives Knights skills that are truly centered around group support [they're like a 3rd class/advanced class idea thing we were discussing]. You might like it. Here's the post. 


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