47 replies to this topic

[flubsy]

My opinion on what the tier list is for 4th job classes (strictly 1v1, team pvp is much more dynamic and different as certain classes become way more powerful in a team setting).  I hope this will bring about good discussions or maybe no discussions and the list will change over time.  I will most likely make a graph later with match up ratios.

 

 

Top Tier

 

1. Invoker

2. Jumeaux

3. Earth Master

 

Mid Tier

 

4. Destroyer

5. Dragoon

6. Sentinal

7. Savage

 

Low Tier

 

8. Sorcerer

9. Overlord

10. Ninja

 

[Bustincaps]

I just want to get this issue out of the way before continuing on with anything else: putting ANY class lower on this list than Sorceror is ridiculous. Sorceror is literally the only class in this game that can't come even a little bit close to competing with any other class in 1v1 PvP. Everything else is debatable, except that. Their skills don't scale with Elemental Damage, and they have no actual catching skills except Time Freeze, which is horrible.

 

Now, moving on to the classes that can actually win a PvP match, the rest of the list seems weirdly ordered. Let's just come to agreement on the fact that the top 3 classes are obviously the three you have listed, just maybe not in that order, and there is no arguing otherwise. They're very overpowered and very broken; debating their order of 1v1 potential isn't really even worth doing, because I don't consider them to be real classes, in all honesty....lol. As far as the Mid Tier goes, Sentinel is definitely superior to Destroyer in every way. It's simply a better and more versatile class; it also has Wire Action, which adds to their potential to make use of superarmor. Dragoon should be much lower on the list and Ninja should be MUCH higher; I don't understand why it's ranked last. It's always been one of the top PvP classes in the game, and hasn't lost any of its power with the new evade cap.  Overlord is a very good class, but has a lot of skills that rely on low amounts of lag to be successful/effective, and also relies too heavily on flinches/knockdowns to be amongst the best PvP classes in modern Dragon Saga, considering all classes are beginning to use a lot of superarmor (or we even have Ninjas, who can just Ninja Frenzy to escape their catches, as long as it's not a stun). Both Thief classes should be ranked higher than the Warrior class, for sure, though. If you are playing with the typical rules (which in a PvP room, you should be), Thieves will typically out-class Warriors.

 

If I were to remake the list, here would be my order, after PvPing in this game for 7 years:

 

Top Tier (no order)

 

Jumeaux

Earth Master

Invoker

 

Mid Tier

​

​​1. Sentinel​

2. Destroyer

3. Savage

4. Ninja

 

Low Tier

 

5. Dragoon

6. Overlord

7. Sorceror

Edited by Bustincaps, 09 September 2015 - 08:54 PM.

[flubsy]

I can say the same thing about playing for 7 years.

You can never assume there are "rules" in pvp.  It's played however players want to play.  

 

 

Destroyer is ranked very high due to their chain combo pew pew spam.  1 flash bang and it's basically game over for most classes. They don't take reflect damage from revenge and one of the few classes that can put up a decent fight against twins and summoners.

 

A Dragoon with their impervion, revenge, roach along with super armor on several moves makes it much better than what most people assume it to be.  Also the amount of debuffs they can dish out in one sitting is ridiculous.  

 

Sentinel is good, but they get outranked due to the dps Destroyers do along with Goon's ability to just cut you out of the sky with 1 xcut or broom jab with their super armor.  If they could pew pew spam like destroyers, they would be ranked higher, but they can't and take reflect damage on revenge.  

 

Savage is basically a thief version of a dragoon with less amount of skills.

 

Sorcerer with enough atkspd and hp/mp can literally tank almost everything, one freeze it's gg.  And the rockets stacked with elements is game over if it wasn't already with freeze.  They also have the ability to heal with mp regeneration and take 40% less damage from attacks.  

 

Overlord's placement is debate-able with Sorcerers as they do about the same in terms of winning out versus other classes.

 

Ninja, the evade, aim, crit damage, crit rate nerf just horribly hinders this class from being better.  As they were designed with a low hlt/hp with high agi, they are significantly handicapped even with their Ninja Frenzy.  

[ohsnap]

Sorry but archers zone out warriors too hard with shootdown, sentinels especially with traps. Unless the dragoon can use time reverse and insta-cast spin it bear to catch the archer off guard it's almost impossible for them to win.  But it really depends on the player since I use to main pally and now sentinel so I know match ups all too well.-shrugs-

Let's not forget a mage's chain combo spam is pretty devastating to knock down and launch skills.

 

I also believe savages are the new dragoons now the passive super armor and the close range cc is annoying not to mention if you freeze them while they have headspin on it still launches you which is pretty annoying. 

 

I think what made dragoons fall off really hard is the restriction on barricade which gave dragoons the ability to remove debuffs and use the super armor to get outta sticky situations. The change to the share cooldown did make them a lot more viable now so I believe it beats out overlords, sorcerers(that don't chain combo spam), ninjas in 1v1s. But don't think they can touch archers, dragonkins, invokers, and savages now. 

[Agitodesu]

To be honest whenever an archer shoots down on me, it is probably the riskiest skill to use on me with me having the better outcome. I'd say 50% of the time I can preemptively catch an archer doing shoot down or about to use it. And boy when I do catch it's usually a KO or a chunk of health compared to the few hits I receive in return. I'd take an archer shootdown trade whenever. But by all means this does not mean that archers suck. Destroyers and dents have exceptional dps according to what happens ex: sent lock/destroyer snipe-xspam. But hey if they use shootdown it gives me a chance to kill them rather than KOing me with a flash x spam or walking into traps and getting myself killed. This applies to other classes with a decent amount of vertical hit skills.

[ohsnap]

Depends on how you're trading note that if you're a pally only real way to punish shootdown is insta bear or crosscut and even then you need a good reaction speed to punish with a crosscut. Against an overlord they tend to just do a cutdown and then punish even if you wyvern during shootdown both of you guys get launch and in 4 seconds they can land another before your wyvern cooldown comes up, Again it's just easy to zone out warrior classes with traps.

[Bustincaps]

You can never assume there are "rules" in pvp.  It's played however players want to play.  

 

Destroyer is ranked very high due to their chain combo pew pew spam.  1 flash bang and it's basically game over for most classes.

 

A Dragoon with their impervion, revenge, roach along with super armor on several moves makes it much better than what most people assume it to be.  Also the amount of debuffs they can dish out in one sitting is ridiculous.  

 

Sentinel is good, but they get outranked due to the dps Destroyers do along with Goon's ability to just cut you out of the sky with 1 xcut or broom jab with their super armor.  If they could pew pew spam like destroyers, they would be ranked higher, but they can't and take 

 

Savage is basically a thief version of a dragoon with less amount of skills.

 

Sorcerer with enough atkspd and hp/mp can literally tank almost everything, one freeze it's gg.  And the rockets stacked with elements is game over if it wasn't already with freeze.  They also have the ability to heal with mp regeneration and take 40% less damage from attacks.  

 

Overlord's placement is debate-able with Sorcerers as they do about the same in terms of winning out versus other classes.

 

Ninja, the evade, aim, crit damage, crit rate nerf just horribly hinders this class from being better.  As they were designed with a low hlt/hp with high agi, they are significantly handicapped even with their Ninja Frenzy.  

 

I still really disagree with all the points you're making. Of course you can never assume someone will play by the standard rules of pvp (common things like no spamming, no Shootdown catching, no Wyvern catching, no healing in 1v1, no Headspin catching, etc.), but why would you want to pvp someone who plays disrespectfully like that? And if they do play that way, are you going to stoop to their level and play like a noob?

 

As far as Destroyer goes, I don't see any real grounds behind your argument on them being better than Sentinel, apart from the fact that they do undeniably have a higher damage output per skill. Sentinels can CC spam just like Destroyers, but their DPS is lower, of course, due to the weapon difference and possible damage formula difference. Regardless, Sentinels have so many utility skills that they have no reason to CC spam. All they need to do is land a stun or Freeze Trap, then net you, and they can basically bring you to p00ntown. That being said, they obviously have far better ground combo potential, but also have better air combo potential along with a better defense through trap setting. The only problem is that I don't think this server has seen what a good Sentinel's gameplay looks like.

 

Moving on, Savage is 100% not out-classed by Dragoon, especially not in today's era of pvp. A Dragoon shouldn't be using Roach or Revenge in 1v1 to begin with, and if they do, Headspin catching is a simple solution (or it would seem to be, using the logic that players typically use on this server). I haven't lost to a Dragoon using Savage since they took their original nerf a long time ago.... even before they gave Savages their Final Decision back. Dragoon isn't an extremely mobile class, so it facetanks Claw Fishing like a pro and gets p00ned every time. I suppose their debuff stacking is something that can be brought up, but are their debuffs really that good? They are all such a short duration that they typically end before the combo is over (they're really not that great anyway), and the best one, Joint Suspension, applies superarmor to the enemy and releases them from your combo if you're not careful. I only know 1 or 2 Dragoons that use it properly in a combo without releasing.

 

Once again, regarding Sorceror, they have no effective catch skills. Don't be a noob and you won't have to worry about their Freeze or Missiles. xD It's not hard to watch where you're stepping and avoid big blue circles on the floor, or Penguins sliding slowly in a straight line. If they want to Slowheal, which they shouldn't be doing in 1v1, you can definitely play more unfair than they can, if that is something you choose to do (I know most players on this server would). This class is viable for BSQ or team pvp, due it's crowd control capabilities, but can easily be made to look foolish in a 1v1 match.

 

Lastly, Ninjas are not a squishy class. With today's gear, no class is squishy. It's a simple fact. If you build your character correctly, you will be a walking fortress. Ninjas can also Ninja Frenzy to gain M.Speed and glitch out of any flinch/knockdown, and have tons of "free catches" (homing skills, large and easy AoEs, etc.). With enough M.Speed, which they have no problem stacking, they can effectively Swift Attack and follow up with a combo before the enemy has time to roll. There's also the legendary Rocket Punch, and more unfair skills such as Perfect Strike, Throwing Dagger (spammable and fairly safe DPS), and other skills that I wont even mention due to them being too unfair for 1v1. I'd also like to bring up the point that they have some of the highest single-target DPS in the game, not counting the 3 broken classes or the ones that don't have actual catch skills.

Edited by Bustincaps, 11 September 2015 - 06:55 AM.

[Agitodesu]

What's a tank if you die in 2 seconds endgame from a summoner xspam?

Dragoons can simply auto attack once or twice then cc/broom to deny headspin/windmill/fd/claw fish/4th class skill.

Of course it is disrespectful to do what a class can do best which would most likely be a lock for a successful kill, but you are missing the point which flub was trying to mention, this is a class tier list. Keeping in mind with all possible ways to guarantee a kill. You could make a tier list on 1v1s with respectful play if you want to. And maybe a team pvp list.

Edited by Agitodesu, 13 September 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[Bustincaps]

What's a tank if you die in 2 seconds endgame from a summoner xspam?

Dragoons can simply auto attack once or twice then cc/broom to deny headspin/windmill/fd/claw fish/4th class skill.

Of course it is disrespectful to do what a class can do best which would most likely be a lock for a successful kill, but you are missing the point which flub was trying to mention, this is a class tier list. Keeping in mind with all possible ways to guarantee a kill. You could make a tier list on 1v1s with respectful play if you want to. And maybe a team pvp list.

 

Why bring up a broken class when speaking of 1v1 class balance? Your gear doesn't matter when fighting Drakans, in general. Invalid point.

 

As far as Dragoon countering Savages goes, only 2 out of the 5 Savage skills you mentioned could be countered/interrupted with Chaincombo, Spear Jab, or Cross Cut (Final Decision and Hellshouting). And if a Dragoon tries to take advantage of its superarmor vs a Savage trying to Claw Fishing them, they'll soon realize that Claw Fishing also has superarmor and will be seeing stars.

 

Next, let's bring up unfair play once more. Dragoon can perform an infinite lock with just 2 or 3 skills (or chaincombo stun on repeat). Savage can do an infinite lock with a wide variety of skills combined. Ninja can do an infinite lock with 3 skills. Overlord can do an infinite lock with just 2 or 3 skills (or chaincombo stun on repeat). Archers can airlock for full HP or perform chaincombo stun on repeat, and Sentinels can infinitely Netbind lock. Twins can infinite lock with I'm not sure how many skills, since I don't play the class. Invokers can infinite lock with just a few skills. Sorcerors can infinite lock with a fairly decent variety of skills (if they can catch you). Summoners can kill you in a few seconds with flinch-lock x spam. If you are going to consider all gameplay as fair, then it literally only matters who catches who first, as long as both players know how to do their class' lock (not hard to learn). Flub was clearly not basing his/her tier list off of this logic; therefore, this is a "tier list on 1v1s with respectful play".

Edited by Bustincaps, 15 September 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[flubsy]

 

You can never assume there are "rules" in pvp.  It's played however players want to play.  

 

I believe for me, the tier list was made via these factors.

 

1. How many viable skills do they have?

2. Ease of use.

3. "broken" skills

4. DPS

 

Regardless of the fact that everyone can lock, it's much easier for some classes to lock and stay alive longer than other classes. 

[StormHaven]

Destroyers surpassed sentinels in 1v1 pvp with the introduction of Sniping and attackspeed being more effective and more available to them.

 

As for the top of the top pvp class. It's Fighter, in no restricted no rules pvp Fighter's only lose when they want to lose due to infinite self revive on 0 CD due to broken skill.

[Agitodesu]

Ero can 5-0 any twins without set and maybe a handicap too. But twins are without doubt made soley for pvp. and likewise summoners are good at pve yet hold a really strong pvp foundation of both cc and dps.

[Agitodesu]

Bustincaps,

Broken class is correlated to how strong a class is and how strong a class is correlates to how good a class is compared to other classes. It is not invalid as it was used as a support detail to augment the fact that those "broken class" you mentioned are strong in pvp in general. If you can see some one dying in a few seconds and taking a long time to kill latter, there's a visible power difference between the 2 leading the winning class to a higher tier.
And as for your point of locking, it is true that you can lock with certain classes better than others, but you do not see or take note of how well a class catches in general. To think a warmage can infilock like twins, would it be top tier next to twins in 1v1? I don't think so. All classes can lock, it's how well they can sync into the locks. I am sure that a twin can lock an overlord before an overlord can lock a twin(in general).
Last thing is that you take the claw fishing skill way to seriously. If I do remember from pvping many of the little endgame savage pvpers, the claw does not have a 100% stun rate and can be canceled by a simple x. All super armor skills can be interrupted by a chain combo. It doesn't matter if it's ideal or not, claw fishing roots yourself and when a pally is so happening to use broomjab in your ideal situation yes. If a class just spams x to the savage and lands a hit when a savage uses a skill most of the time it will cancel the skill.

[flubsy]

Just because they're ranked lower or higher than another class doesn't mean that they are ridiculously better than the classes they outrank.  If anything the classes in the same tier are about same level.  The only one I would say that kind of doesn't fit is the Destroyer.  If anything Destroyer is somewhere in-between Top Tier and Middle Tier. Quite possibly in a tier of their own, High Tier.  As I as see them being almost as strong as invokers, twin, summoner, but not quite there yet while being way stronger than the other classes on the Mid Tier.

 

If anything, I would say the next best thing to do is make a match up chart 10x10 that shows basically the win ratios of each class.

[StormHaven]

Ero can 5-0 any twins without set and maybe a handicap too. But twins are without doubt made soley for pvp. and likewise summoners are good at pve yet hold a really strong pvp foundation of both cc and dps.

 

But how many twin's that actually pvp Ero abuse the 0 CD infinite self revive?

[sean718]

Skills only work if you've the opportunity to cast it. 

[Agitodesu]

I've witnessed the pvps and the moment one stands still they will die and barbarian casts through weave. Along from the moment they jump away the barbarian is likely to hit since they were grounded from cast. Along with casting light speed. Most twins run from ero rather than chase. The presence is way too strong. I have seen many twins who do abuse it in late game pvp. Will not mention names but approximately 4 twins. And I have also played twins at endgame which I got wrecked since I'm bad at pvp anyways.

Edited by Agitodesu, 16 September 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Bustincaps]

Bustincaps,

Broken class is correlated to how strong a class is and how strong a class is correlates to how good a class is compared to other classes. It is not invalid as it was used as a support detail to augment the fact that those "broken class" you mentioned are strong in pvp in general. If you can see some one dying in a few seconds and taking a long time to kill latter, there's a visible power difference between the 2 leading the winning class to a higher tier.
And as for your point of locking, it is true that you can lock with certain classes better than others, but you do not see or take note of how well a class catches in general. To think a warmage can infilock like twins, would it be top tier next to twins in 1v1? I don't think so. All classes can lock, it's how well they can sync into the locks. I am sure that a twin can lock an overlord before an overlord can lock a twin(in general).
Last thing is that you take the claw fishing skill way to seriously. If I do remember from pvping many of the little endgame savage pvpers, the claw does not have a 100% stun rate and can be canceled by a simple x. All super armor skills can be interrupted by a chain combo. It doesn't matter if it's ideal or not, claw fishing roots yourself and when a pally is so happening to use broomjab in your ideal situation yes. If a class just spams x to the savage and lands a hit when a savage uses a skill most of the time it will cancel the skill.

 

I said it was invalid because I don't disagree with you guys on them being top tier. They're broken and op, and play in a league of their own. I see no point in including them in the debate.

 

As far as the point of catching goes, that is what I was trying to say to begin with. You guys bring up the point of pvping without rules; I'm saying that all classes can lock for full HP, so playing without rules 1. doesn't make any difference and requires no skill apart from your first catch and 2. ruins the point of 1v1 PvP. If you read my first post in this thread, I discuss to some extent the catching ability of the classes (or lack of). While this still does all make a difference in your argument, you must also keep in mind the skill of the player. Stuff like Destroyer Chaincombo & Sniping is all linear. It's very easy to avoid and counter. In my eyes, skills like Headspin, Swift Attack, Sky Penetration, Wyvern, etc. are all superior to it. If Destroyer's Chaincombo were seeking, it would be a different story. In the end, though, for you to effectively spam Chaincombo at a speed that is deathly or even catch with Sniping, you need to be fairly stationary and be very prepared to get your butt out of there in a hurry when the enemy just runs above or below the attack.

 

And if you think I take Claw Fishing way too seriously, you clearly have not PvPed a good endgame Savage. xD That skill is every class' bane. Claw Fishing stuns, and most importantly, it moves your enemy, so it's not easily interrupted like other superarmor skills. You can't use Chaincombo while being moved; you can only use it afterwards, if the stun fails. You can literally spam Claw Fishing when being combo'd from behind by a Dragoon, and it will typically find a flinch-gap and stun them. Also, you can catch with Claw Fishing right through almost any class' attacks. I do it all the time; run straight up in someone's face, and Claw Fishing them right through their catch. It's Savage's most OP catch skill apart from Headspin... easily. Being rooted to the spot doesn't matter if you use the skill properly. It works in your favor. A class' catching abilities are to some extent only as good as the aim of the player using them.... just like the dangerousness of an enemy skill completely depends on whether or not you know how to properly evade and counter it. Something you find deadly and impossible to avoid, someone else might know a simple way to evade and counter.

 

I feel like I'm leaving out a lot of what I'd like to say in response, but there were too many replies for me to keep up with. :<

Edited by Bustincaps, 16 September 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[flubsy]

Are you a good end game savage?

 

I'd like to see it vs some players in debau, vg, era, outbreak, but most likely debau as I've pvped with them before and respect their skills.

[Bustincaps]

Are you a good end game savage?

 

I'd like to see it vs some players in debau, vg, era, outbreak, but most likely debau as I've pvped with them before and respect their skills.

 

I am still lvling my Savage on this server, but I've had capped Savages on many other servers and have mained Savage for about 5 years now (played for over 7, as I said before). I have a lot of PvP experience with every Human class, but Savage is my main class. As far as the guilds you've mentioned, I haven't met any good Savages thus far in the PvP lobbies here. Maybe they're hiding? I'm assuming you know I don't consider good gear an equivalent to gameplay skill, though. A player with OP gear is not necessarily a good player... especially on this server, it seems. XD No offense to you WarpPortal DS players....

 

On topic, though, I can respect your view on the tiers. I simply disagree with them; maybe it's because I come from different servers than you? I've learned that each server has its own type of PvP community, regardless of the fact that it's the same game.

[flubsy]

I was endgame IAH and Gpotato and Jap server where I was fairly well known among the pvp community in each of those.  I am assuming you're Gpotato english, and if you are, then I have played in your server.

Edited by flubsy, 20 September 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[checksome]

A player with OP gear is not necessarily a good player... especially on this server, it seems. XD No offense to you WarpPortal DS players....

 

Not all. Just want you to know that I dont have an op gears too lol. For sure you came from a private server.

If you are thinking correctly op gears will help you to become a skilled player.

 

Skill + no gears = trash. Someone can beat you easily with just decent gears.

[flubsy]

Honestly, if all skills were un-nerfed and brought to their original states with nothing being blocked in pvp/bsq, classes become more balanced.

 

The tier list would look more like:

 

 

Top Tier

 

1. Invoker

2. Jumeaux

3. Earth Master

4. Dragoon

5. Ninja

 

Mid Tier

 

6. Destroyer

7. Sentinel

8. Savage

 

Low Tier

 

9. Sorcerer

10. Overlord

[ohsnap]

Honestly, if all skills were un-nerfed and brought to their original states with nothing being blocked in pvp/bsq, classes become more balanced.

 

The tier list would look more like:

 

 

Top Tier

 

1. Invoker

2. Jumeaux

3. Earth Master

4. Dragoon

5. Ninja

 

Mid Tier

 

6. Destroyer

7. Sentinel

8. Savage

 

Low Tier

 

9. Sorcerer

10. Overlord

Prenerfed dragoon is almost equal to fighter imo. When I use to main dragoon I had a fairly good time against them. Barricade as soon as you spot ghost fighter, shouder tackle, skill animation cancelled sd's, aerial smackdown and spin it bear spams were pretty good counters against them we can also assume pally is using parry and impervious. Everything comes down to both players skill but prenerf dragoon definitely had the tools to fight them. 

[flubsy]

Another thing to note is pre-nerf did not have atkspd as a major factor as it does now as x-spam was not an issue.  If the atkspd buff/chain combo did not exist, then I would definitely say Dragoon would be above the twin and summoner.  Summoner would probably also drop a few ranks because of smart shot not being a factor anymore.