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Why are FQLs so expensive?


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#1 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:26 AM

To be honest, I don't know how getting a Level 4 Weapon from +9 to +12 warrants a price increment of 2b - 700m = 1.3b when +12 armors with the same refine success rates are selling for below 1b. Chances are the same so shouldn't just the cost of refining be added on top of the base cost of an FQL (500m)?
 
For example, if a +12 Immune Shield goes for 1b or less, with a base cost of 30m, then refining costs should be pretty much assumed to be at most 1b, or less. Otherwise there would be no point upgrading stuff and selling them if no profit could be made at a decent rate. So with that logic in mind, a +12 FQL should actually go for Base Cost + Upgrade Cost = 500m + 1b = 1.5b. At any rate, it shouldn't be going for the "market price" of 2b, no?
 
That logic only makes sense, or all useful +12 armors like Immune Shield, Cat Ear Beret and Red Pom Band for example, should also be going for 1.5b, which they clearly aren't. Yes, I understand the FQL is at least a billion times rarer than most armors, but that cost is already translated into the base cost. That is exactly why an FQL goes for 500m and an Immune Shield goes for 30m. It's like getting taxed double. First you pay for the rarity of the item, which is super logical. But then why do you pay extra for an upgraded one? Each +1 does not make its drop rate worse. It was already dropped at a crap rate (1% I think) and only after a lot of trouble and that's what made it 500m. But refining it to +12 does not alter the past and change that drop rate to 0.1%. Also, on a side note, I'm guessing maybe 99.99% of the FQLs out there are utilized only by Sins, which further disproves the price.
 
In conclusion, I agree fully that the base cost should be what it is, but getting it from +9 to +12 should definitely not make it 1.3b more expensive. Whether or not you agree, that's your own choice. I'm not forcing anything on anybody. I'm just trying to make sense of why +12 FQLs go for 2b. Lol. But if you can justify getting one at 2b, then I hope you have fun with it! Make that Zeny Zeny well spent!
 
P.S. I'd love to hear some reasons about why I should spend 2b on one!

Edited by Jigglebums, 08 October 2015 - 12:32 AM.

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#2 LegendaryTorgue

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:37 AM

 

To be honest, I don't know how getting a Level 4 Weapon from +9 to +12 warrants a price increment of 2b - 700m = 1.3b when +12 armors with the same refine success rates are selling for below 1b. Chances are the same so shouldn't just the cost of refining be added on top of the base cost of an FQL (500m)?
 
For example, if a +12 Immune Shield goes for 1b or less, with a base cost of 30m, then refining costs should be pretty much assumed to be at most 1b, or less. Otherwise there would be no point upgrading stuff and selling them if no profit could be made at a decent rate. So with that logic in mind, a +12 FQL should actually go for Base Cost + Upgrade Cost = 500m + 1b = 1.5b. At any rate, it shouldn't be going for the "market price" of 2b, no?
 
That logic only makes sense, or all useful +12 armors like Immune Shield, Cat Ear Beret and Red Pom Band for example, should also be going for 1.5b, which they clearly aren't. Yes, I understand the FQL is at least a billion times rarer than most armors, but that cost is already translated into the base cost. That is exactly why an FQL goes for 500m and an Immune Shield goes for 30m. It's like getting taxed double. First you pay for the rarity of the item, which is super logical. But then why do you pay extra for an upgraded one? Each +1 does not make its drop rate worse. It was already dropped at a crap rate (1% I think) and only after a lot of trouble and that's what made it 500m. But refining it to +12 does not alter the past and change that drop rate to 0.1%. Also, on a side note, I'm guessing maybe 99.99% of the FQLs out there are utilized only by Sins, which further disproves the price.
 
In conclusion, I agree fully that the base cost should be what it is, but getting it from +9 to +12 should definitely not make it 1.3b more expensive. Whether or not you agree, that's your own choice. I'm not forcing anything on anybody. I'm just trying to make sense of why +12 FQLs go for 2b. Lol. But if you can justify getting one at 2b, then I hope you have fun with it! Make that Zeny Zeny well spent!
 
P.S. I'd love to hear some reasons about why I should spend 2b on one!

 

 

1. Upgrade fail rate is high. chance of +9 to +10 is 10% (in my experience more like 5% or 1 in 20)

for upgrade to +11 = 1/10, +11-->+12 = 1/10 hence 1/100 chance, but for me its more like 1/20 x 1/20 = 1/400

 

2. Upgrade ores are not cheap.

 

3. Mvping is a chore. Some take a lot of time. Rare drops are rare.

 

4. GXs have insane DPS. Even more so for high end DD Crit. FQL is strongest main hand dagger at level 4, 2 slots, high attack and chance to cause earthquake.

 

5. Most importantly, if not happy, make your own.
 

No faceworm queens were harmed in the making of this post.


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#3 Demeris

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:37 AM

If you don't like the price. Just don't buy it at that price or try and haggle.

That's really the only logic you need to understand. I've overpriced items before and I never think about selling stuff as the "base price."

Regarding your +9 - +12 cost... lets just say that I've seen someone spend over 250 dollars just trying to get an item to +10 and still didn't get it. So people sell at the price they they think it's worth or feel they can get away with.


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#4 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:49 AM

1. Upgrade fail rate is high. chance of +9 to +10 is 10% (in my experience more like 5% or 1 in 20)

for upgrade to +11 = 1/10, +11-->+12 = 1/10 hence 1/100 chance, but for me its more like 1/20 x 1/20 = 1/400

 

2. Upgrade ores are not cheap.

 

3. Mvping is a chore. Some take a lot of time. Rare drops are rare.

 

4. GXs have insane DPS. Even more so for high end DD Crit. FQL is strongest main hand dagger at level 4, 2 slots, high attack and chance to cause earthquake.

 

5. Most importantly, if not happy, make your own.
 

No faceworm queens were harmed in the making of this post.

 

1) Yes, I understand that. I know everybody's "upgrading luck" is different. But your argument is valid for every other good Level 4 weapon or armor. Upgrade rates are same across the table.

 

2) Yes, I know they're not cheap. But the same exact ores are used for every other Level 4 weapon or armor.

 

3) Yes, I know MVPing is tough and tiring. I know rare drops are rare. That's why I said the cost of rarity is already translated into the base cost of 500m which is server-wide agreed to be 500m since that's what everybody sells them for. Which means they have taken into account all the work and costs of MVPing and getting the gear and worked it out to be worth 500m.

 

4) Yes, I know FQL is the strongest main hand dagger at Level 4, 2 slots, high attack and a chance to cause Earthquake. But just like in 3), players have worked all that out to be worth 500m.

 

5) I'm not saying I'm unhappy, I'm just saying why is FQL receiving biased treatment?

 

Lastly, just to emphasize once more, refining costs should be equal across the board since refining rates are same for every Level 4 weapon or armor. FQL is 500m (which I agree it should be) because of all the reasons you mentioned. However, you did not explain why refining a different weapon like an RTE to +12 only bumps its price up by Price - Base Cost = 900m - 20m = 880m but refining an FQL to +12 makes it 1.3b more expensive. That is a 500m difference in refining cost just because it's an FQL? What I want to know is whether or not "because it's an FQL" is a fair argument for its "more expensive" upgrading costs which should be similar to every other Level 4 Weapon or armor out there. Like I've said before, you only answered that the FQL is the best weapon out there, which I agree on, and which is why it's worth 500m (because of the time and effort consumed to get it, its stats, its slots, its chance to cause Earthquake).

 

But why is an FQL's refining cost worth more than others?


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#5 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:51 AM

If you don't like the price. Just don't buy it at that price or try and haggle.

That's really the only logic you need to understand. I've overpriced items before and I never think about selling stuff as the "base price."

Regarding your +9 - +12 cost... lets just say that I've seen someone spend over 250 dollars just trying to get an item to +10 and still didn't get it. So people sell at the price they they think it's worth or feel they can get away with.

 

Why is everyone misunderstanding me? Lol.

 

Obviously I understand that the sellers govern the price. But my question is why do the buyers agree to that price. I don't see people buying a +12 RTE for 2b. But it has the exact same chances of getting to +12 as the FQL.

 

Also, if I spent 10b on making something +10, it does not mean it's worth 10b. My upgrading event was probably an outlier. Just because I think it's worth 10b because I spent 10b on it, it doesn't mean the price should be 10b. Same as Spooktober. Imagine opening 50 boxes and not getting a Blood Sucker until the 50th box. Would that make the Blood Sucker worth 50 x 300KP = 15000KP = 1.5b? Nope. They pretty much go for 200-300m at the moment.

 

One last thing, I'm not complaining about the price because I won't buy it for 2b so it's not a problem for me. And yes, if that's the only price they're going for, I would make my own for sure. I'm just wondering why FQL gets a bigger return on investment than other things that are equally hard to refine.


Edited by Jigglebums, 08 October 2015 - 12:56 AM.

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#6 smackeruuuuu

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:56 AM

supply and demand.


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#7 Aizenath

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:57 AM

Because it's harder to get than other weapons? and it's more of a specialized weapon in some regards too.

 


Edited by Aizenath, 08 October 2015 - 12:59 AM.

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#8 Varmundt

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:59 AM

it's about the law of supply and demand. nothing else


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#9 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 12:59 AM

supply and demand.

 

Lol. Sigh. Once again.

 

Factors that increase base cost:

 

1) Rarity

2) Time/Effort Required

3) Stats

4) Slots

5) Chance of Earthquake

6) Supply/Demand

 

These 6 factors were the criteria on which sellers/farmers have decided the 500m base cost. If you're talking about supply and demand, the base cost would probably increase to 700m instead of 500m. But once again, I'm asking why a larger price tag is put on upgrading FQL to +12 and a smaller one on other gears that are equally hard to refine to +12.


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#10 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:00 AM

Because it's harder to get than other weapons? and it's more of a specialized weapon in some regards too.

 

That is exactly why other weapons have a base cost of 30m and the FQL has a base cost of 500m.


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#11 Varmundt

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:05 AM

those gears that you're talking about (+12 RTE for example) are equipments that were used to be the most in-demand item before the FQL patch arrived. therefore, those existed +12 RTE sellers make it much cheaper since the demand is low.


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#12 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:07 AM

it's about the law of supply and demand. nothing else

 

If the supply of cereal was much less than the demand for cereal, price of cereal would go up.

 

However, simply speaking, the supply of cereal being low does not make milk more expensive. The supply and demand of cereal does not affect cows. They produce the same amount of milk whether or not Cap'n Crunch has more demand than supply.


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#13 Nirvanna21

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:13 AM

Lol. Sigh. Once again.

 

Factors that increase base cost:

 

1) Rarity

2) Time/Effort Required

3) Stats

4) Slots

5) Chance of Earthquake

6) Supply/Demand

 

These 6 factors were the criteria on which sellers/farmers have decided the 500m base cost. If you're talking about supply and demand, the base cost would probably increase to 700m instead of 500m. But once again, I'm asking why a larger price tag is put on upgrading FQL to +12 and a smaller one on other gears that are equally hard to refine to +12.

 

If you try work out a formula involving base cost and upgrade cost then you will find it just doesn't add up the same each time.

 

A good example, a +11 IRE vs a +12 Drooping White Eddga, approximately 25m each as a base cost and worth slightly different amounts at later stages (+11 IRE = 900m, +12 DWE = 1.2b+).


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#14 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:14 AM

those gears that you're talking about (+12 RTE for example) are equipments that were used to be the most in-demand item before the FQL patch arrived. therefore, those existed +12 RTE sellers make it much cheaper since the demand is low.

 

Okay, so now DD Crit Sins are getting really popular so the weapon of choice for off-hand dagger would likely be a slotted Icepick.

 

They are the most-wanted off-hand daggers for these Sins. It's worth about 100m or so. If I got it to +9, it would probably go for 250m or so. But if I made it from +9 to +12, nobody would pay me 1.3b on top of the 250m.

 

A +0 FQL is 500m. A +9 one is 800m. So my question is, why do people pay extra 1.2-1.3b ON TOP of the 800m for an FQL getting to +12 when it costs the exact same for the Icepick to get to +12 from +9. Let's assume your luck is the exact same when upgrading both gears. I don't see people paying 1.2-1.3b ON TOP of the +9 item's price for getting something from +9 to +12. This only holds true for FQL.

 

That's my point. 


Edited by Jigglebums, 08 October 2015 - 01:15 AM.

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#15 Myzery

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:17 AM

The supply of cereal being low could actually affect the price of milk since most cereal is made from corn.
If there was a corn shortage, which is mostly the only thing fed to commercial milk cows, the price would go way up.

The price of gas would go up, the price of tons of things would go up because the world revolves around corn.

 

 

 

Anyway, it's high because the drop is rare and because it's a level 4 weapon, right?
You also need a party unless you have pretty decent equipment and even then you're using a fair bit of consumables.
Most people don't want to go through the hassles mentioned above, so the end answer is laziness.

Something is worth what people will pay for it. It used to cost a lot more.


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#16 LegendaryTorgue

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:19 AM

Because CORN, that's why.

 

Funny-corn-on-the-cob-cartoons.jpg


Edited by LegendaryTorgue, 08 October 2015 - 01:20 AM.

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#17 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:19 AM

If you try work out a formula involving base cost and upgrade cost then you will find it just doesn't add up the same each time.

 

A good example, a +11 IRE vs a +12 Drooping White Eddga, approximately 25m each as a base cost and worth slightly different amounts at later stages (+11 IRE = 900m, +12 DWE = 1.2b+).

 

But that's a little different because IRE gets the next bump at +13 so it has to be either +11 or +12. But DWE gets a bump for every refine rate, and that's why it makes more sense for it to cost a little more. But it's funny you should mention this example because if a +9 DWE is going for say 250-300m, why doesn't the price get bumped up to 250m+1.3b=1.55b like the way FQL gets bumped up?

 

i am talking purely about refine costs. I think everybody is misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I'm talking purely quantitative and not qualitative. 


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#18 Myzery

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:22 AM

Okay, so now DD Crit Sins are getting really popular so the weapon of choice for off-hand dagger would likely be a slotted Icepick.

 

They are the most-wanted off-hand daggers for these Sins. It's worth about 100m or so. If I got it to +9, it would probably go for 250m or so. But if I made it from +9 to +12, nobody would pay me 1.3b on top of the 250m.

 

A +0 FQL is 500m. A +9 one is 800m. So my question is, why do people pay extra 1.2-1.3b ON TOP of the 800m for an FQL getting to +12 when it costs the exact same for the Icepick to get to +12 from +9. Let's assume your luck is the exact same when upgrading both gears. I don't see people paying 1.2-1.3b ON TOP of the +9 item's price for getting something from +9 to +12. This only holds true for FQL.

 

That's my point. 

 

That's because icepicks are saturated everywhere and anyone can get them.
You also have to factor in the resale value. Icepicks, like you said, have recently started going back up.
When something topples the FQL it'll fall drastically too because people want what's new and hot.
Why do people pay hundreds for a new iPhone? There maybe be some new and convenient functionality, but for the most part, people want to keep up with trends.
A small damage boost may not be worth it to you, but totally worth it to the next guy. The guy after that may only want it because everyone else does or for the 420 blaze swag effect that he gets from bragging to his friends.


Edited by Myzery, 08 October 2015 - 01:23 AM.

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#19 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:25 AM

The supply of cereal being low could actually affect the price of milk since most cereal is made from corn.
If there was a corn shortage, which is mostly the only thing fed to commercial milk cows, the price would go way up.

The price of gas would go up, the price of tons of things would go up because the world revolves around corn.

 

 

 

Anyway, it's high because the drop is rare and because it's a level 4 weapon, right?
You also need a party unless you have pretty decent equipment and even then you're using a fair bit of consumables.
Most people don't want to go through the hassles mentioned above, so the end answer is laziness.

Something is worth what people will pay for it. It used to cost a lot more.

 

That's why I said "simply speaking." Lol.

 

Let me make it clearer. If SPECIFICALLY Cap'n Crunch has high demand but low supply (because of manufacturing reasons). Not corn. Price of milk would not go up.

 

Yes, but like I've said many times already, all that effort has already been calculated and translated into the base cost people are selling it for. It could very well be worth only 100m if some all-knowing being put a price on it at face-value. But because of all the trouble players have to go through to get it, they said "Yo, we deserve to get paid for labour. Let's smack another 400m on top of that 100m that people should pay us for because we did the quest so they didn't have to." 


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#20 Myzery

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:28 AM

Things in RO are generally sold based on the base price of the item.
It's not really fair and it's not very appealing to new players, but since it's a free market, there's not you can do about it.

In the end the buyer like you mentioned before is more to blame because they sell for that price over and over.
Most of them are also carded with MvP cards, so people want THE BEST and will pay anything under the sun.

 

It's quite impossible to apply logic 24/7 to RO.


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#21 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:28 AM

That's because icepicks are saturated everywhere and anyone can get them.
You also have to factor in the resale value. Icepicks, like you said, have recently started going back up.
When something topples the FQL it'll fall drastically too because people want what's new and hot.
Why do people pay hundreds for a new iPhone? There maybe be some new and convenient functionality, but for the most part, people want to keep up with trends.
A small damage boost may not be worth it to you, but totally worth it to the next guy. The guy after that may only want it because everyone else does or for the 420 blaze swag effect that he gets from bragging to his friends.

 

I actually really appreciate your replies because you're actually trying to contribute. Thank you for that.

 

Yes, Icepicks being saturated and easily obtained is a fact. But if I made the Icepick +12 and tried selling it to the guy who thinks the boost of 7 x 3 = 27atk is worth it, I'm 99.99% sure he wouldn't pay me an extra 1.3b on top of the 250m a +9 one costs. But he would probably say "Maaaan its an FQL though. 2b sounds about right" when it actually isn't right. Lol.


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#22 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:30 AM

Things in RO are generally sold based on the base price of the item.
It's not really fair and it's not very appealing to new players, but since it's a free market, there's not you can do about it.

In the end the buyer like you mentioned before is more to blame because they sell for that price over and over.
Most of them are also carded with MvP cards, so people want THE BEST and will pay anything under the sun.

 

It's quite impossible to apply logic 24/7 to RO.

 

Lol. That last line. I think you pretty much explained it.


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#23 xnatsumark

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:30 AM

Here, giving you my free post. *_* goes away


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#24 Myzery

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:31 AM

I actually really appreciate your replies because you're actually trying to contribute. Thank you for that.

 

Yes, Icepicks being saturated and easily obtained is a fact. But if I made the Icepick +12 and tried selling it to the guy who thinks the boost of 7 x 3 = 27atk is worth it, I'm 99.99% sure he wouldn't pay me an extra 1.3b on top of the 250m a +9 one costs. But he would probably say "Maaaan its an FQL though. 2b sounds about right" when it actually isn't right. Lol.

 

I mean, yeah, you pretty much have it.
It doesn't really make sense and it probably never will make sense. lol

If someone's friend paid 20m for something, that price is ingrained into their brains and they will USUALLY demand it for that price too.


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#25 Jigglebums

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:35 AM

I mean, yeah, you pretty much have it.
It doesn't really make sense and it probably never will make sense. lol

If someone's friend paid 20m for something, that price is ingrained into their brains and they will USUALLY demand it for that price too.

 

Lol! Even I am guilty of that. Haha. But it's never to the point where 1.3b is involved. Lol.


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