96 replies to this topic

[sigeel]

Personally im still for nerfing the hell out of F7 while boosting EXP gained from f6 a lot and making dungeons(Elements,Galaxia,Van Cliff,Black Claw Nest etc) give the highest exp/run in the game.

 

if that were to happen, what would be the purpose in having f7 in the first place in the game then? 

 

when it first arrived it had a possibility of dropping loot from the mobs but that was removed when people found this an efficient way to farm. nowadays this is the primary place to lvl your characters so taking that away from f7 will make this map completely lose its purpose. 

 

I am not against boosting exp on other places mind you, it would be refreshing to lvl by doing something else, but think of it like this.

boosting exp gain in f6 might affect people farming rings, not to mention dungeon farms. for instance if I farm alexion rings on my lvl 65 character which I like keeping on that lvl, it will be absolutely inconvenient to get out of that map every 3 runs or so to kill off my character, so you can imagine what dungeon boosts might do to a character who does continuous element farming for instance, or even a character that has to be kept on lower lvl if they want devil essences to drop on those three bosses before elga.

 

I think as much as f7 is not liked my most, it is a perfect place to lvl, because it is a map specifically aimed for it. when people ask to do f7 everybody automatically knows they are off to lvl their character, which in theory attracts other people who want to lvl as well while leaving farming places with moderate amounts of exp for people who perhaps do not want to lvl as fast as that.

 

In my opinion, f7 exp should be boosted (it is afterall a map without any significant drops- aside from armor and weapon powders) to help people reach their desired lvl faster so they can focus in doing things they want in game.

Edited by sigeel, 01 November 2015 - 06:43 AM.

[Popcorn]

if that were to happen, what would be the purpose in having f7 in the first place in the game then? 

 

What is the purpose of calling this game an MMORPG then? Maybe we should rename it to "Tower Defense Game"? We also have quests in the game. I understand that from Lvl. 60+ it's hard to level without F7 the time being, but standing around in F7 only from Lvl. 42+ can't be the purpose of F7 and also not the purpose of playing this game.

 

What is F7 about? One builds and 3 others are standing around AFK while doing other things. Do you think that should be the purpose of having F7 in the game?  

 

We can directly stop discussing about higher EXP in F7 - this won't happen. Everyone in the production team agrees that F7 is boring and long-termed something must be done to get the players out of F7 by giving alternatives. And that the forcing of F7 for main levelling must change to something you can do if you like F7 but not be forced to do only F7.

Edited by Popcorn, 01 November 2015 - 07:01 AM.

[sigeel]

What is the purpose of calling this game an MMORPG then? Maybe we should rename it to "Tower Defense Game"? We also have quests in the game. I understand that from Lvl. 60+ it's hard to level without F7 the time being, but standing around in F7 only from Lvl. 42+ can't be the purpose of F7 and also not the purpose of playing this game.

 

What is F7 about? One builds and 3 others are standing around AFK while doing other things. Do you think that should be the purpose of having F7 in the game?  

 

We can directly stop discussing about higher EXP in F7 - this won't happen. Everyone in the production team agrees that F7 is boring and long-termed something must be done to get the players out of F7 by giving alternatives. And that the forcing of F7 for main levelling must change to something you can do if you like F7 but not be forced to do only F7.

 

 

I don't really care what happens, I was just suggesting an alternative point of view that was opposing boosting exp on actual farming places. 

 

Edited by sigeel, 01 November 2015 - 07:16 AM.

[Popcorn]

I don't really care what happens, I was just suggesting an alternative point of view.

 

And I appreciate this, but please excuse me if I immediately stop this idea because I know that this could lead to discussions which are getting out of hands again. However, thank you for stating your point of view.

[SoulSight]

... Like I said, if F7 were nefted, people would still go F7 for enchant dust.

[Popcorn]

... Like I said, if F7 were nefted, people would still go F7 for enchant dust.

 

First, no said F7 will be nerfed so far. I just said the EXP won't be increased. Also playing this for farming the dust is just fine. But at the moment many players are standing in F7 from Lvl. 40+ and then complain about not having any equip for their levels, complaining about not having any clue how to play, complaining about how boring F7 is - and this must be changed. We have to offer alternatives - especially from Lvl. 60+. If it will finally be nerfed or not isn't decided - and won't be decided as long as there's no alternative for levelling.

[Laburey21]

I am not against boosting exp on other places mind you, it would be refreshing to lvl by doing something else, but think of it like this.

boosting exp gain in f6 might affect people farming rings, not to mention dungeon farms. for instance if I farm alexion rings on my lvl 65 character which I like keeping on that lvl, it will be absolutely inconvenient to get out of that map every 3 runs or so to kill off my character, so you can imagine what dungeon boosts might do to a character who does continuous element farming for instance, or even a character that has to be kept on lower lvl if they want devil essences to drop on those three bosses before elga.

 

This line of argument has a pretty strong I-want-to-have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too flavour to it. Most people who decide to level-camp realise that there will be certain trade-offs, because they are basically doing something an RPG isn't designed for. For example, the F6 ring system was never designed for perpetual farming at a particular level, that's why you can exchange rings from lower levels to higher levels.

 

Personally I don't think Popcorn and the team should cater to level-campers, rather their goal should be to eliminate reasons for level-camping.

[sigeel]

And I appreciate this, but please excuse me if I immediately stop this idea because I know that this could lead to discussions which are getting out of hands again. However, thank you for stating your point of view.

 

ah ok no worries

 

hmm this had me thinking.

If you do increase the amount of exp in other places, (and given that those minus exp potions or accesories would not be a good idea) would it be possible to maybe create a mission map or something similar that would be an insta-death for lvls 65-85? 

similar to what you have implemented with MM for lower lvls who try entering a highr lvl maps. It doesn't have to have actual maps or mobs, just a map that kills you upon entering.

 

I am asking this because to regulate my lvl I usually go to die in nail hill which teleports the character back in ellora camp. But if you have a character with very high health even with all your equipment unequipped it takes a really long time for a mob to kill you.

Edited by sigeel, 01 November 2015 - 07:45 AM.

[SoulSight]

I'm really confused because I'm confusing myself with these thoughts.
Before F7, F6 was originally meant to level but since F7 existed, nobody went F6 again from 4x to 6x EVEN THOUGHT THERE IS A DAILY QUEST FOR F6.

Before F7 level limit, it took days to level up! The Arka map (I don't remember the name) was very popular. (yeah, this is tough time) So F6 was not recommended.

People in F7 are afk because 1 person can handle everything but if 1 person goes alone, it consumes the fatigue quickly, plus no boosting. (maybe they made a deal! "I boost, I afk, you handle everything")

Taking people's advantages and appreciation away is always frustrating. This is kind of one of the hardest feelings.

[sigeel]

This line of argument has a pretty strong I-want-to-have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too flavour to it. Most people who decide to level-camp realise that there will be certain trade-offs, because they are basically doing something an RPG isn't designed for. For example, the F6 ring system was never designed for perpetual farming at a particular level, that's why you can exchange rings from lower levels to higher levels.

 

Personally I don't think Popcorn and the team should cater to level-campers, rather their goal should be to eliminate reasons for level-camping.

 

maybe i intend to equip those rings on that very lvl 65 i am farming them for?

since on lvl 65 you can farm so much more stuff than on lvl 70+  

 

for instance i came back here from guild wars where after you reach max lvl, the game adjusts you to any lvl maps you choose to go so you are able to farm anything you want.

 

since this is an older game and this kind of system was never even considered, i was simply making suggestions keeping those limitations in mind.

some people still need to keep their character on certain lvl to farm goods. 

Edited by sigeel, 01 November 2015 - 07:42 AM.

[Laburey21]

Taking people's advantages and appreciation away is always frustrating. This is kind of one of the hardest feelings.

 

Indeed, it's much worse to give players something and then take it away, rather than not giving it to them in the first place.

 

I always thought F7 was a crappy and lazy design choice by the Koreans. I wish it had never been made but it's there and to nerf it would just annoy a lot of players to no end. So it should stay like it is now.

[Laburey21]

since on lvl 65 you can farm so much more stuff than on lvl 70+  

 

the game adjusts you to any lvl maps you choose to go so you are able to farm anything you want.

 

some people still need to keep their character on certain lvl to farm goods. 

 

This was exactly what I meant with my last comment. These are the problems and ideas that should be looked at, so that people won't feel the need to level-camp.

[Popcorn]

Indeed, it's much worse to give players something and then take it away, rather than not giving it to them in the first place.

 

I always thought F7 was a crappy and lazy design choice by the Koreans. I wish it had never been made but it's there and to nerf it would just annoy a lot of players to no end. So it should stay like it is now.

 

So we should just add 5 new F7 maps (hypothetically) and you're satisfied? Because if the F7 maps stay like they are there's no need to make thoughts or plans for updating/adding content between lvl. 60 and 85. That safes time and work. Maybe we can then remove all the non-F7 content Level 42+ because F7 seems to be enough, because as SoulSight says "it's an advantage". But what advantage can it be playing a game just with standing around in a tower defense game bored as hell or standing around AFK doing other things? Sorry, I don't get it. I see no advantage here.

Edited by Popcorn, 01 November 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[sigeel]

This was exactly what I meant with my last comment. These are the problems and ideas that should be looked at, so that people won't feel the need to level-camp.

 

if this kind of thing was possible i think that would awesome for everyone.

[Laburey21]

So we should just add 5 new F7 maps (hypothetically) and you're satisfied? Because if the F7 maps stay like they are there's no need to make thoughts or plans for updating/adding content between lvl. 60 and 85. That safes time and work. Maybe we can then remove all the non-F7 content Level 42+ because F7 seems to be enough, because as SoulSight says "it's an advantage". But what advantage can it be playing a game just with standing around in a tower defense game bored as hell or standing around AFK doing other things? Sorry, I don't get it. I see no advantage here.

 

Believe me, I see no advantage either. As you said, people reach the level cap and have no equipment and have never learned how to kill monsters effectively. It's not my idea of fun, but to each their own.

 

StormHaven had the idea of making F7 event-only. I think that could be something for the future. Cookie Factory twice a year, Christmas F7, maybe there are more of them and I forgot. Only keep Pegasus as regular content. 

Edited by Laburey21, 01 November 2015 - 08:12 AM.

[Popcorn]

I think it's way to early to discuss what could be done and what not, because we aren't at the point to change this kind of content yet. Sadly we still have to be patient. But it's moving on... This is what I can ensure you.

 

[Precrush]

I think this is the perfect time to discuss what to do when you changes are able to be made, since if we (you) get the decisions parts out of the way now rolling out those changes will be much quicker.

 

What would be the place of f7 in a world where other means of lvling gave more exp? Well it is a very easy,  monotonous way to level up, which would be it's function it this case. A place where you didn't necessarily have to do anything much actively to gain exp, for those who want that. That to me is good enough of a reason. In this case f7 could even be made more afk-able, with the cost of giving less exp of course.

 

When it comes to capping it is indeed a very interesting issue. I agree, a game shouldn't cater towards cappers, and the issue is not the existence of cappers but the reasons why they exist. I see 2 main reasons for this:

 

1. Some pve content is most efficiently done with a character of a certain lvl, some content is impossible to do if you are over the desired lvl (wanted quests). In away it makes sense that van cliff only drops his loot to players around a certain lvl, it prevents much more powerful higher level players from being more effective at farming it, which would in a way be unfair. This is an issue that like sigeel ponted out, is fixed in some other mmo's, most notably Guild Wars 2, by changing the power level of your character to better match the level of content. Any proper fix for this reason would require some bigger changes. Personally I think having bone items drop from van cliff to players of all levels for example would be better then the way it is now, but that's debatable.  When it comes to those wanted quests, never liked it, the whole thing is a mess and maybe the way those cards are gained should be changed completely someday.

 

2.Pvp, most notably bsq. Here it's all about the power fantasy and perhaps the feeling that high level bsq is too hard due to all the stacked players. The need for this capping can be fixed by balance adjustments and perhaps some changes in the game mode itself, things that have been discussed elsewhere.

 

Easiest fix would be to allow people to cap infinitely at a lvl by preventing exp gain, tho this change probably also couldn't be made anytime soon and I don't really know if it is a good idea, I'd rather see those people up at the 80's doing pvp and such. Admittedly almost every capped player also has a high level character. Though even with that being said they don't play those as much due to this issue. Meh, It's complicated, my final concencus . But ye changes to exp gain shouldn't take to account cappers imo.

[Agitodesu]

Considering how people here are convinced to make F7 an event, that means the exp given from it is way too high albeit being the fastest known and method of leveling. Keeping the Pegasus as the normal once a week or pay to level on other days can be debated later on. Raising exp gained in other ways can decimate players who farm gold and items both in pve and pvp aspects by players who will be doing drive by leveling. If we must come down to adjusting exp regardless of campers or not, I would like to propose exp bank cards which stores experience gained on your character to prevent yourself from leveling. This will soothe players who want to camp in specific level ranges, help other players level without the need of killing oneself and etc.
On that note I am aware of people saying it is outrageous to "not level in an mmorpg game" this game is special in its own way. Everything here has its own range. This might sound ridiculous, but by definition of the genre this game is tagged (mmorpg/fantasy) this should be categorized as a mass multiplayer game where one role plays in a fantasy setting. If you want to level you should have a set way to level, if you want to stop leveling and play with the content you have so be it.
But anyways, I'm sure there will be a discussion about this when they want community opinions on it later. If they surprise us doing there own thing without having a discussion purely on the thing they will change, so be it. No one can do anything but bark out ideas hoping they might hear it out. As of now we are being mature adults thinking about the future and not looking at the present like kids. Just roll with what you have and when the staff brings out the discussion of change, take off your kiddie mask and write that 5 page single spaced, size 12 font, times new roman Oxford essay.

[Precrush]

Why would f7 have to be made an event? In the case that other ways of gaining exp remained low this would mean lvling could only be done on one day of the week, which already is a bit of a thing with people only lvling on weekends. And If other ways of lvling were buffed, again a change like this would be unnecessary, since we would have people doing things other than f7 anyway. f7 is a core part of the game now, I don't think players would be happy if that was for some reason changed.

 

EDIT: Just a thought, even if capping wasn't perhaps the most healthy thing for the game, perhaps it is too late to try to fight it now (could cause some massive damage to player base, needs huge changes) and we should just accept it as a feature of Dragon Saga. In this case a simple way to stop exp gain would be in order.

 

Edited by Precrush, 01 November 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Agitodesu]

I'm aware of F7 being the signature symbol of leveling and I too do not want it as an event, but if the staff only relays that and find other ways of spreading exp, we can't do anything.

 

Pvp capping players are naturally unfair because most people spent time and/or money to stack their characters to be able to defeat those who did not. Why would anyone throw money and time to build their characters only to be equal as a new player? They don't need to spend anything at all, just make stacking null and void. It's ridiculous isn't it? Just accept building your character stronger part of the game.

 

Pve cappers let items appear on the market regularly instead of rarely. Many players would rather buy the item on the market than farm it on their own since it may take more work or significantly longer than stacked farmers geared towards that specific item. That itself is one of the many reasons why the market is useful. Some items may come around a lot and drop price yes, you will not be able farm that item anymore for now, but you should know the consequence of farming an item easily obtainable by others and compete, there is no need to make their lives any harder.

 

Capped players in both PVP and PVE are not a legitimate threat to leveling, It is the other way around. The staff would probably consider the minority and supply an alternative so the changes would't directly hurt them. It's not that hard of an add on when the development does get through in the future. So no need to worry if you do camp. Otherwise many players that do camp will backlash on forums and they will eventually consider it.

[Laburey21]

Pve cappers let items appear on the market regularly instead of rarely. Many players would rather buy the item on the market than farm it on their own since it may take more work or significantly longer than stacked farmers geared towards that specific item. That itself is one of the many reasons why the market is useful. Some items may come around a lot and drop price yes, you will not be able farm that item anymore for now, but you should know the consequence of farming an item easily obtainable by others and compete, there is no need to make their lives any harder

 

Can you give some examples of these items (other than Monster Cards) so it's easier to understand what you mean exactly?

[SoulSight]

Now i'm home so i can type longer.

 

 

Because if the F7 maps stay like they are there's no need to make thoughts or plans for updating/adding content between lvl. 60 and 85. That safes time and work. Maybe we can then remove all the non-F7 content Level 42+ because F7 seems to be enough, because as SoulSight says "it's an advantage". But what advantage can it be playing a game just with standing around in a tower defense game bored as hell or standing around AFK doing other things? Sorry, I don't get it. I see no advantage here.

 

Believe me, I see no advantage either. As you said, people reach the level cap and have no equipment and have never learned how to kill monsters effectively. It's not my idea of fun, but to each their own.

 

I see your point here! I'm aware of this.

 

 

People in F7 are afk because 1 person can handle everything but if 1 person goes alone, it consumes the fatigue quickly, plus no boosting. (maybe they made a deal! "I boost, I afk, you handle everything")

 

*but thanks to the fatigue, less level-jumping level*

I'm also sick of F7 because I keep my eyes on the screen longer than 40 minutes! I have heavy short-sighted eyes already. I'm one of the people who are afk most of F7 runs, honestly.

However, there was no choice to level up except F7.

It was one of my argument about xGold during weekend (but I'm not going deep) : because "you" boost exp during weekends, people tend to level up and concentrate F7 area during weekend. After weekend, they go back to farm gold again (like a cycle!). So that's the most ideal choice for most of people except who do not want to level up.

 

And for other (boosting) people, they come afk and collect dust. -> F7 is still the only ideal way to collect dust. Also the eclipse earring is the number-one goods for pve players! So why are they not afk? Why should they look at the screen when they have a person who can handle everything?

 

As I stated above, i support boosting F6.

 

 

Before F7, F6 was originally meant to level but since F7 existed, nobody went F6 again from 4x to 6x EVEN THOUGHT THERE IS A DAILY QUEST FOR F6.

 

F6 now is a forgotten system during 4x-6x, I'm guaranteed that no one...NO ONE goes F6 to level up. Even though there is someone but it does not change the situation significantly.

 

And another thing for capper. I have looked at my "history" of playing games, one of the system of the game that, I was interested, was click-to-level-up. Click-to-level-up sounds simple but this is how the system works : Every time players gain exp, it will not go into the exp bar. Instead, it stacks up as an "inventory" (quite similar with the exp potion). Therefore when a player desires to add exp to the bar, CLICK! ; when a player wants to level up, CLICK!

However, each click will level up 1 level to avoid over-leveling. Also Click-to-level-up does not hurt the people who want to level up anyway.

I don't mind if it is not gonna work or not but I'm giving my opinion. 

 

 -> In my conclusion, a client change is obvious.

- F6 should be buffed (more reward like enchant dust and exp as you can see at the first place). Change green quest into blue quest. Reward : a lot of exp, few gold and 10 perfect hunches *just recommend*.

- The rate of consuming fatigue on 1 person should be equal with 4 people in the party. Open choosing-level system (no boosting players required). Therefore there will be less afk people in party. For those who want to jump level (example : level 40 player chooses level 50 mob) should consider the aim rate before coming in *understandable*. However, this does not solve the people who are lazy to do F5 quest and open alone so I need some ideas with this.

- Click-to-level-up system should exist.

- Make quest more exp to replace F7.

 

Edited by SoulSight, 01 November 2015 - 04:53 PM.