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Quick question on nerfs on dragoon.


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#1 Agitodesu

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 08:44 AM

When were the dates the nerf was placed on Dragoons on

1: Cast time on bear
2: Barricade blocked
3: Time reverse blocked (or if it was always blocked in bsq)
4: Change on block equation/effect
5: Shared cooldowns on crosscut and broom jab
6: Reverting from shared cooldown back to normal.

I think some were changed at the same time and others at different times. I just want to know what came first and so on.
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#2 ManItsMike

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 05:23 PM

Sorry I can't help much, something something don't pvp broken record.
I tried bsq once in IAH on my dragoon there, and TR was allowed. I know it doesn't help, but I can say it wasn't always blocked! :)
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#3 Agitodesu

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 06:55 PM

I just think the reason why pallies are under played right now is because of the collective nerfs placed on them. I doubt they would nerf cc/broom jab/Block/time reverse/added cast time on bear at the same time. At least right now in pvp rooms they are boosted to mid tier if played like a god.

Along with another comment is that all of the dragoons passive is % of base and I find it how ridiculous that is. Final % would also be ridiculous so I can see why they just keep it bad rather than screwing it up.
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#4 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 05:23 AM

i think long termed players such as S****Ha***, Popcorn, C****am do have the answer. I wanna know too.

 

This is short refreshing your mind.

 

https://forums.warpp...ons-still-good/

 

Oh, you were there too!


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#5 StormHaven

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 06:13 AM

I just think the reason why pallies are under played right now is because of the collective nerfs placed on them.

 

More like they went from literally Faceroll winnning to -Wow i need skills to play this now!?-

When a Top tier class gets balanced and drops down a tier the people who played it because it was the best usually quit/reroll into the next classes to fill spot. 

One of the best examples actually is when Twin fighters were first released the twin ignored your opponents def completely and once that got fixed Fighter's on this server basicly stopped existing until the rise of elements.


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#6 5143121023173906760

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 06:53 AM

Since no one gave an accurate answer to Agitodesu's question yet ;

 

There.


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#7 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 07:03 AM

I have read it and

 

"Defensive Blessing - Total DEF/MDEF can be increased up to 40% at Max Level.
Offensive Blessing - Total ATK/MATK can be increased up to 15% at Max Level."

-> Did they mean Defensive aura & Offensive aura? If so, I don't find it increase final/total stat, it's base stat.


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#8 5143121023173906760

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 07:10 AM

I have read it and

 

"Defensive Blessing - Total DEF/MDEF can be increased up to 40% at Max Level.
Offensive Blessing - Total ATK/MATK can be increased up to 15% at Max Level."

-> Did they mean Defensive aura & Offensive aura? If so, I don't find it increase final/total stat, it's base stat.

This patchnote is outdated.
It was probably back to when every buff was used to give a buff for total values.


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#9 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 07:15 AM

Oh i see!

I do not see Barricade & Time Reverse Aura were forbidden in Battlesquare and EW. Not sure if it was already said in earlier or later patchnote.

 

It was probably back to when every buff was used to give a buff for total values.

 

I don't understand why they do it.

 

Oh look! Accessories can be enchanted!


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#10 Agitodesu

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 09:30 AM

More like they went from literally Faceroll winnning to -Wow i need skills to play this now!?-
When a Top tier class gets balanced and drops down a tier the people who played it because it was the best usually quit/reroll into the next classes to fill spot.
One of the best examples actually is when Twin fighters were first released the twin ignored your opponents def completely and once that got fixed Fighter's on this server basicly stopped existing until the rise of elements.


That's a shame. Hopefully someone with enough skill eventually shows us how good a dragoon can be since all I ever heard from the community were that they aren't very good at all lately. I'm tempted on stacking a dragoon and binge playing it in high tier bsq just because I want to see how they fair. I'm sure some paladin mains at least tried to bsq a decent amount of times before quitting, But there's a point or reason when the leftover Paladins that were skilled(if anyone wants to say it existed), have trouble competing in bsq that they eventually give up and quitting after.

Also another thing, when would a class be seen as nerfed a little bit too much? It's either that we generalize the entire player base into one class then assume they all quit and have no skill at the same time or the class is still playable to make a noticeable difference and we just say it without playing the class. What if the player was actually skilled at the class but could not fair in fights either due to the nerfs or being demolished by other classes? Would We just assume that's another failure and the person playing it just sucks; still call the class strong and people that quit are just stupid even though we don't actually have a paladin stacked up to their standards let alone talk about it like we know the class better than them? I wouldn't know what to say. The only way a person knows more about a class is probably the one on the recieving end to talk about how op a class is in general. I'm just afraid after stacking and bsqing for a while and the class can not hold their own ground well. I would eventually have an opinion and complain about something then get demolished by some people. Depends really, if the class is actually good in pvp then maybe I'll come along and say so myself. The reason why I wanted to know when the nerfs took place was because after 1 patch the class declined faster than anything. I wanted to know which nerf it was. I thought that the evade/block/aim fix was separate from the skill restrictions on Dragoons. So I assumed it was either the skill restrictions or the evade/block/aim fix. The double nerf patch hit them really hard. Then again I could just use other classes and leave this one to rot since there are 0 opinions of them since they all quit or there are no end game Dragoons in that bsq or in others that are committed to at least trying.

I just wanted to support this class based on the population. If nothing can be done so be it, I also have the other 9 classes that I can play with so it wouldn't affect me much at all.

Wouldn't the twin incident be called a bug rather than a nerf? Just like the magician detection issue.
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#11 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 09:49 AM

Agitodesu, I have thought about after takeover, i would suggest to rework/fix the whole tree skill of every single class! Changing only one thing is hardly enough but changing multiple stuffs at the same time is challenging.


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#12 Agitodesu

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 10:00 AM

That's over doing it.


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#13 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 10:17 AM

I have seen people discuss over over over again and the same topic endlessly. However, I have seen people JUST discuss a particular matter like "Dragoon" system...not general like the whole "Dragon Saga" system. I would like to see if it works out.


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#14 StormHaven

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 10:41 AM

That's a shame. Hopefully someone with enough skill eventually shows us how good a dragoon can be since all I ever heard from the community were that they aren't very good at all lately. I'm tempted on stacking a dragoon and binge playing it in high tier bsq just because I want to see how they fair. I'm sure some paladin mains at least tried to bsq a decent amount of times before quitting, But there's a point or reason when the leftover Paladins that were skilled(if anyone wants to say it existed), have trouble competing in bsq that they eventually give up and quitting after.

Also another thing, when would a class be seen as nerfed a little bit too much? It's either that we generalize the entire player base into one class then assume they all quit and have no skill at the same time or the class is still playable to make a noticeable difference and we just say it without playing the class. What if the player was actually skilled at the class but could not fair in fights either due to the nerfs or being demolished by other classes? Would We just assume that's another failure and the person playing it just sucks; still call the class strong and people that quit are just stupid even though we don't actually have a paladin stacked up to their standards let alone talk about it like we know the class better than them? I wouldn't know what to say. The only way a person knows more about a class is probably the one on the recieving end to talk about how op a class is in general. I'm just afraid after stacking and bsqing for a while and the class can not hold their own ground well. I would eventually have an opinion and complain about something then get demolished by some people. Depends really, if the class is actually good in pvp then maybe I'll come along and say so myself. The reason why I wanted to know when the nerfs took place was because after 1 patch the class declined faster than anything. I wanted to know which nerf it was. I thought that the evade/block/aim fix was separate from the skill restrictions on Dragoons. So I assumed it was either the skill restrictions or the evade/block/aim fix. The double nerf patch hit them really hard. Then again I could just use other classes and leave this one to rot since there are 0 opinions of them since they all quit or there are no end game Dragoons in that bsq or in others that are committed to at least trying.

I just wanted to support this class based on the population. If nothing can be done so be it, I also have the other 9 classes that I can play with so it wouldn't affect me much at all.

Wouldn't the twin incident be called a bug rather than a nerf? Just like the magician detection issue.

 

As of right now, there's just not a point to dragoons. They don't fit well in the Elements meta where classes Archers,Thieves,Invokers, and Dragonkin have a ton of skills that trigger element damage multiple times while Dragoon's really have none and don't forget about since element damage ignores P.Def/M.def PDD and MDD it made it even less of a reason for a class that stacks those in large amounts to be picked.\

 

Tbh without elements Dragoon's are in a pretty good spot balance wise.
 


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#15 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 10:56 AM

They don't fit well in the Elements meta where classes Archers,Thieves,Invokers, and Dragonkin have a ton of skills that trigger element damage multiple times while Dragoon's really have none

 

What do you think if elemental damage count(ed?) only 1 time per skill? For example : Spear jab has 5 combo strike but it counts only 1 time of elemental damage, then what how would it work with other class? Still fair or unfair?


Edited by SoulSight, 31 October 2015 - 11:00 AM.

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#16 StormHaven

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 11:18 AM

What do you think if elemental damage count(ed?) only 1 time per skill? For example : Spear jab has 5 combo strike but it counts only 1 time of elemental damage, then what how would it work with other class? Still fair or unfair?

 

It already does that for most skills, people rarely notice because 1,000 element divide over 5 hits only shows an improvement of 200dmg on each hit which is within the same range of  min-max


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#17 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 11:22 AM

1,000 element divide over 5 hits only shows an improvement of 200dmg on each hit which is within the same range of  min-max

 

I'm not sure if there is a misconception here.

I thought it should be 200 elemental damage in 5 hits (i mean totally, not each)


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#18 StormHaven

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 12:05 PM

I'm not sure if there is a misconception here.

I thought it should be 200 elemental damage in 5 hits (i mean totally, not each)

 

............

Ok lets go step by step.

 

Normal: The skill is calculated to do 1000 damage. The animation shows it hits 5 times. Each hit will show 200 damage(1000/5) for a total of  1000 damage. Okay? You still with me. Good.

 

Now with elements: The skill is calculated to do 1000 damage. You have 100 element attack. The animation shows it hits 5 times. Each hit will show 220 damage ((1000+200)/5)  for a total of 1100 damage.


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#19 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 12:10 PM

Now with elements: The skill is calculated to do 1000 damage. You have 100 element attack. The animation shows it hits 5 times. Each hit will show 220 damage ((1000+200)/5)  for a total of 1100 damage.

 

True! That's what i mean. But it's already working? I noticed but did not know that.

But how do "Final decision" & "Aerial frenzy" work? I see it make a lot of damage.


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#20 StormHaven

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 12:29 PM

True! That's what i mean. But it's already working? I noticed but did not know that.

But how do "Final decision" & "Aerial frenzy" work? I see it make a lot of damage.

 

Final Decision:

Calculated damage 1100 to 1300 per hit

Hits: 11

Total damage: 12,100 to 14,300

Each of the 11 hits deals damage between 1100 and 1300

 

Final Decision With 1000 element

Calculated damage: (1100 to 1300)+1000)= 2100 to 2300

Hits: 11

Total Damage: 23,100 to 25,300

Each hit gains an additional 1000 damage from the element.

 

 

Which you can see causes it to deal almost 2x more damage with just 1k element.


Edited by StormHaven, 31 October 2015 - 12:35 PM.

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#21 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 01:11 PM

True, that's what i understood too! And it was not what i meant  :wall:

I meant this

*copy and remake*

 

Final Decision:

Calculated damage 1100 per hit

Hits: 11

Total damage: 11,000

 

Final Decision With 1000 element

Calculated damage: 1100x11 (total non-elemental damage) +1000 (elemental damage) = 13,100.

 

So i asked if it would be fair when "we" fixed it like that.

 


Edited by SoulSight, 31 October 2015 - 01:13 PM.

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#22 Precrush

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 01:19 PM

I played dragoon on eu where not many people had a whole lot of element dmg, and It was quite fine since I could stack hp and def better then other classes, had a few heals and such. The shared cooldown and almost useless spin it bear were annoying tho, since goons already didn't have too many useful offensive skills. But half of that was reverted here so if elements weren't such a big factor goons would be good.

 

To bring balance slow and steady tweaks win the race in my opinion, rather that then have sweeping changes that could ruin the game even more, since you can never quite get full scale testing done, and at least make a few people quite because they felt the changes, what ever they were, were too big and unfair.


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#23 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 02:49 PM

That's why I asked Popcorn if they could make another testing server with the TEST sign. If everything works fine then bring it to the official server.
However, I think they can't due to license issue.
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#24 Agitodesu

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 03:54 PM

Wonder if we could have class representatives in forums like other games. I'm sure if we have at least a person that knows their class and represents the majority and is voted from the majority, it wouldn't pose a threat since this is already done in the forums outside of dragon saga.


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#25 SoulSight

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 04:57 PM

What's the pro and con of it? I can't think a thing.
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