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Revitalizing Chaos WoE Scene | Needs Drastic Changes & CM Aid


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#151 miliardo

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 06:38 PM

I don't completely agree on having supplies for free. There should still be an advantage for people that has dedicated time and money into this. As someone proposed nerfed potions - heavier weight or less healing capacity should be enough - similar to TE potions. These potions should still give those that use ranked slims and light blues an advantage, but cheap / good enough that it's feasible to WoE with them. If someone wanted to be in the competitive edge, they would still use the best possible. But if you think free supplies will suddenly bring in competition and new players to fight, you are wrong. If these newer people start WoE, they will be inexperienced and most likely undergeared. I'm not too sure why you would want to fight these new people - they won't be even close to being a challenge and if that's your idea of fun, then you're the reason why new guilds do not survive more than a few months.

I believe this can be easily tested by getting an NPC to sell such items.


Well I would disagree that without any good ideas besides this how could we toss this idea. We know that the guilds woeing right now besides residence guild and KK won't be effected. Free pots could create competition for the real small guilds and even eventually grow into stable competition for the server. What it all boils down to its better to try something then make more threads on what we could do and not do.
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#152 KamiKali

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 07:42 PM

Your post makes absolutely zero sense, not sure why I unhid it in the first place. And I don't believe there's a guild called "residence." Free pots won't do anything to any guild as long as nothing else is changed. If everything was done in steps. Free or cheap pots should probably be the last thing to implement.


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#153 Toxn

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 08:03 PM

Or castles can just give Treasure Boxes or more WPS Boxes for Slim purposes.

 

Or is potting or selling WSS, Buying vended ranked slims too much work


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#154 miliardo

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 09:15 PM

Your post makes absolutely zero sense, not sure why I unhid it in the first place. And I don't believe there's a guild called "residence." Free pots won't do anything to any guild as long as nothing else is changed. If everything was done in steps. Free or cheap pots should probably be the last thing to implement.


Valf 4 / valf 1 are who I'm talking about they are small guilds but still consistantly woe each week.
http://choobs.org/renewalwoe2/index
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#155 Darksorrow1234

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 09:56 PM

resonance brah :|


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#156 fuyukikun

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 12:29 AM

dont forget he also intentionally misspelled sinergia to senergia
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#157 hotel

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 02:13 AM

I feel like if you dedicate time and money you'll already have a huge advantage in terms of experience and gear, and efficiency of supplies wouldn't really make a big difference. Free woe-only pots would definitely remove an expensive barrier of entry for new guilds and encourage more people to play, in my opinion.


Edited by hotel, 17 November 2015 - 02:19 AM.

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#158 Tanzanito

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 03:39 AM

I feel the people defending free pots are just saying that because they don't want to farm supplies anymore. Because really? Do you really think new guilds would start to play just because they now got pots? Even if they're still getting 1 shot by 1 big guild party? This isn't the problem,they'll still be 10 years late in terms of gears and they'll never be able to reach the actual 'metagame'.


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#159 hotel

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 04:05 AM

Of course, but there's really nothing short of a server wipe that can close the 10 year gap. When you have a server that's been running for so long there's no feasible way for new guilds and players to catch up without drastic intervention, like the suggestion of restricting the use of gods and MVPs in woe. It's an mmo, older players are supposed to have an advantage over newer players. Thing is, Ragnarok is so old that the disparity has grown to be really obvious. Doesn't help either that the same items (gods and MVPs mainly) that were super strong years ago are still super strong today. There hasn't been much introduced to supersede old gear at the highest tier.

 

Point is, one of the main obstacles faced by smaller guilds looking to enter the woe scene is supply costs. Alleviate this = making woe more accessible = more potential new players. Yeah they'll still get steamrolled by bigger guilds, but that's natural. Smaller guilds can look to fight other smaller guilds while growing their numbers. There's no overnight solution, but I think this is a step in the right direction.


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#160 Tanzanito

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 04:27 AM

Point is, one of the main obstacles faced by smaller guilds looking to enter the woe scene is supply costs. Alleviate this = making woe more accessible = more potential new players. Yeah they'll still get steamrolled by bigger guilds, but that's natural. Smaller guilds can look to fight other smaller guilds while growing their numbers. There's no overnight solution, but I think this is a step in the right direction.

People won't play to be steamrolled. Specially if the way treasure works continue like this, since big guilds will keep getting every castle at the end of the siege.

 

And no, the main obstacle isn't the supply cost. Yes it's kinda expensive, but it isn't something that makes a real difference for someone that is 160+ w/ basic gear. The main obstacle is being steamrolled every single WoE, do you realize how much effort does it take to a leader gather 20+ people to play in a specific time of the week? It's 20 people that wants to play LoL, RO2, CSGO and they also got jobs, families etc. They won't spend time to be steamrolled if they can do anything more satisfying than that.

 

In my opinion, the 2 viable solutions we got is:

  • Changing the way castle econ:Treasure works, making econ 100 worth something.
  • Chaning at least 3 or 4 castles to non god/mvp woe and making their treasures not so valuable as the 'main ones'. 

 

Yes, the supply is a important part of it. But if a guild is having fun in WoE, they won't mind spending money in supplies, on the other side, they will mind if they're being steamrolled, with free or paid supplies.


Edited by Tanzanito, 17 November 2015 - 04:27 AM.

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#161 ChakriGuard

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 05:50 AM

Cant believe it has to come down to this. Read at your own risk /gg

Spoiler


Edited by ChakriGuard, 17 November 2015 - 09:30 AM.

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#162 kingarthur6687

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 05:59 AM

Considering that there were no Thor participants in the PVP tourney thing we had last month from what I understood, I actually wonder if there's any tangibility behind suggestions of cross-server WoEs/PVP or merging Chaos/Thor strictly for the purposes of livening up the WoE scene.
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#163 miliardo

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 06:04 AM

People won't play to be steamrolled. Specially if the way treasure works continue like this, since big guilds will keep getting every castle at the end of the siege.

And no, the main obstacle isn't the supply cost. Yes it's kinda expensive, but it isn't something that makes a real difference for someone that is 160+ w/ basic gear. The main obstacle is being steamrolled every single WoE, do you realize how much effort does it take to a leader gather 20+ people to play in a specific time of the week? It's 20 people that wants to play LoL, RO2, CSGO and they also got jobs, families etc. They won't spend time to be steamrolled if they can do anything more satisfying than that.

In my opinion, the 2 viable solutions we got is:

  • Changing the way castle econ:Treasure works, making econ 100 worth something.
  • Chaning at least 3 or 4 castles to non god/mvp woe and making their treasures not so valuable as the 'main ones'.

Yes, the supply is a important part of it. But if a guild is having fun in WoE, they won't mind spending money in supplies, on the other side, they will mind if they're being steamrolled, with free or paid supplies.

look there is no getting around guilds being steam rolled when you have guilds like animosity origins and LR with 25+ people with multiple players having mvp and God item. Even if you take away gods and mvp how do you fight people with 2x your numbers. Renewal mechanics make very hard to defend against guilds with more attendance.

How can you create fun for small guilds? Create action with reward. You can't create action without people participating in woe.

Let me just put this out there if guild size went from what it is now to 24 woe would be fixed. You would have more guilds and less possibility of people being steam rolled. Only way at this point in the server I can see would help. Without more people joining woe and no real solution to make people join woe is becoming stagnant.

(I miss the days when after you got wiped by a guild that people would try and not let that happen again. There is no ambition or competitiveness anymore. It's like they lose and give up or quit.)
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#164 Tanzanito

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 07:48 AM

look there is no getting around guilds being steam rolled when you have guilds like animosity origins and LR with 25+ people with multiple players having mvp and God item. Even if you take away gods and mvp how do you fight people with 2x your numbers. Renewal mechanics make very hard to defend against guilds with more attendance.

The problem is that most small guilds aren't steamrolled by full animo/LR/CS guilds, they're owned by three or four members that are insanely geared up, making so that 10 people can't face 3 geared ones. If you remove gods/mvps from at least one realm, these 10 players will be able to defend against these 3 or 4 big guild members looking to get random castle breaks.

 

That said, big guilds would have to send their whole guild to outnumber a small guild in a non-mvp/gods realm, and they'd lose their castle they were defending before to other big guilds, considering the rewards would be better, they wouldn't do this. So we'd have at least one realm where small guilds could have fun and also get some rewards, not like the 'main castles' ones but at least they would have fun and get something valuable from it.


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#165 jake0619

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 07:49 AM

What we need is instructional youtube videos on how to gear/play woe characters without needing high end gear.
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#166 Tofu

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 07:52 AM

What we need is instructional youtube videos on how to gear/play woe characters without needing high end gear.


Get crackin' jake!
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#167 Victorh3x3

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:29 AM

Hi. I was from the leadership of a BR WoE guild named Wait for It/Hunting/ Ember Tree that was created around March this year and lasted till July I guess. Starting fresh in the server, I had the experience of creating with some friends a guild from zero till it became a competitive guild managing to fight equally and win gvgs againt the tier 2 guilds like Smokies/CS/Sinergia and rarely Origins. From this experience, I could see lot's of issues that can keep a smaller guild from not playing WoE.

 

First is the lack of interest and reward of playing WoE like Kami said. It was really hard to mantain fresh and new players that would want to start WoEing because of the lack of rewards. It is already a chore and a huge cost just to level your character to the max level to be able to play WoE in a competitive way and small guilds don't have the profit to pay for the costs of every guild member, so people would just quit because of the raising costs each WoE and the huge level/equip gap without any clear reward. Things like the castle drops and the castle duns could be changed to become more rewarding for the players, besides geffen( black rosary) and alde(maya purple) and MvPs that other more powerful guilds can and will farm, I can't see any incentives of conquering WoE castles. God pieces are really really difficult of getting and the rest of the drops are just bad.

 

Second is the huge gap in equipment of the newborn guilds and the longlasting ones. It is impossible to compete with the top guilds without MvP and god itens. You can be a hell of player, but your guild still gets wiped with only one AS from a thana ranger. It is really dumb. And the 175 managed to get the balance even worse,classes like suras, RKs and SC are just a nightmare to play against with MvP cards and Gods.And don't even remember me the cheating. I made a video of myself playing WoE and in the commentaries people asked why I didn't have autopot or why our SC didn't had automask lol. And there is no middle ground in the WoE scenary, or you need to get MVPs and God itens to compete with the top tiers or you have GvGs with guilds that have 5 members and can't compete whatsoever.

 

Third is the WoE time. In bRO, we have our 1.0 on Sunday and 2.0 on Saturday. Here half of our members(myself included) couldn't play on Wendnesdays because they had work or class to attend. WP surely could replace the WoE times and days to become better for the overall players.

 

Fourth is the lag, I know I can't complain much, WP servers are in USA and not here in Brazil but, the lag sometimes was unbereable. I couldn't use any potions or skills or move sometimes in the middle of the GvGs because of it. I can play other games that have overseas servers with less lag then in RO.

 

My guild stopped playing WoE for many reasons, some of them were the drama issues and conflicts, others were just time and work/university issues. But I can say for sure that the WoEs here were less fun than the we have in bRO right now, and bRO is a dying server for a long time. I guess the worst problem is the lack of a middle ground between top tier God/Mvp guilds and the 4fun 5 member ones and the lack of reward of playing right now.


Edited by Victorh3x3, 17 November 2015 - 08:35 AM.

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#168 WarlockFier

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:57 AM

I think free slims is a bad idea. As if autopot isn't a big enough problem, free potions for everyone so unlimited autopotting!

I'm okay with better woe castle treasure loots that rewards better WSS.


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#169 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 09:12 AM

I'm sticking to the only idea I gave, no gods or MVP cards in one of the woe days, either woe1 or woe2. No Maya purple card either. Only reason I say this, is so the consumables that no one even bother to use can actually be of use. What woe needs is a challenge to actually feel like you're participating, not smash one button and go watch your t.v shows as you macro for two hours of woe pre-casting. Everything else could be looked at or worked on after the removal gods and MVP cards from woe for a month or so, as a test and see how it works from there. You know, the whole trial and error thing! What everyone has been back seat saying and never fully attacked the issue is that the main reason we dont see new guilds going to woe is becasue of the gods and MVP cards. Zerg rush? too many people in one guild? So what, you can have 1k people in woe but if a full guild of 56 has gods and MVP cards good :p_devil:  luck to everyone else who doesn't have them. Restrict gods and MVP cards and Maya P from woe, and then lets talk about the rest of the issues.

 

Tu tu ru!

 

Jackieeeeee one morrreee ting, I agree with the upgrade of woe loots as well.


Edited by ShinobiEX3, 17 November 2015 - 09:13 AM.

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#170 VModCinnamon

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 09:30 AM

Two new posts have bid their goodbye, for your information.


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#171 KamiKali

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 09:41 AM

When Chaos merged, WoE was a no-gods WoE. That was pretty fun. MVPs were still enabled, but back then, MVPs were a lot fewer than what it is now, due to many mistakes by the GMs - influx of Bloody Branches, keeping tao, kiel in the summoner for months - year.

 

But personally, I don't believe gods make that big a difference. LR for example was never saturated with gods, still isn't. We have one guild meg. But the big difference is people worked hard for their MVPs and gods, grinded and hunted them. It took a long time to get where we are now and never have I changed my stance on anything. Back then, when Chaos merged we were out godded, mvp'd by literally every guild from Valk, Ygg and Ymir, but were we discouraged? No. It was a fun challenge to fight stronger guilds and work our way up. I never saw my guild as a "small" guild who was restricted to fighting other small guilds. Which is what half of the people here are suggesting to the smaller guilds: "Have the weaker guilds fight each other for fun" How is that going to improve competition? It's not. It'll just keep things stagnant. You shouldn't tell other guilds what to do, they should fight whoever they want. Growing stronger is hugely based on leader and member mindset and determination.

 

But one big thing happened during the 175 update, as what someone said (forgot who and I don't have time to dig), certain classes were insanely buffed. Did arrow storm hurt during 150? Yes, but it was survivable, were chasers annoying? Yes but their success rate was a lot lower. Did TC hurt? Yes but it never one shot you. It's really due to 175, certain classes got insanely buffed - no limit + 175 + arrow storm formula, Sura + TC + 175 + boosted HP pool, Chaser + high dex + higher job level + easier stat distribution for instant cast. I remember when I had to meticulously calculate stats to achieve instant cast on chasers and genes. Now it's a joke and there's no consequence. But 175 did bring about a few good things such as the DB nerf.

 

When the game meta and something as significant as new skills and level caps being introduced, end game content, especially one as prevalent as WoE needs to evolve as well. We are still stuck with the 2012 WoE mechanics (which was horrible in the first place), and that needs to change.


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#172 Hissis

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 09:59 AM

I wish we could have a exclusive balance patch,just for iRO (or at least bug fix on some skills -.-)

 

but gravity only care about PVM,thats why they keep releasing OP gears making the game more unbalanced for PvP/WoE players


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#173 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 10:00 AM

Kami! I see where your going with this, but even if your guild or any other guild that woes dont have "guild god's or MVP's" There are still personal use gods and MVP's that is saturated in the woe scene. This is why I call for a trial and error method. Let one of the woe days have no gods and MVP's and see how that works out. Will there be a change? Will there not be a change? No one can 100% say yes or no to this. If they do it's just merely just speculation. Also Ive never been in your guild so I cant say anything about what your guild does or dont do. "Since you dont want me :(" But I digress lol, There may be other reason why woe is in a slump, I agree but I believe the first obstacle is to try out the no MVP/God route and see how it works. Does Woe need a upgrade yes? No one here can truly deny that it doesn't. I have many other stand points as well for the woe issues which many people here stated as well but I dont want to get into it since its best try to stick to point by point issues and trial and error method. Lets remove the gods and MVP's as a first step and see if there is a difference. If there is no noticeable difference then put them back and try another method. ^.^


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#174 3452140212150117003

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 10:03 AM

Just quoting some people in guild:

 

"the problem? the introduction of 175 just made woe turned from a positional warfare to pvp based. Where Chasers and Suras were made godly from humane."

btw in ro, pvm is considered to be quite an easy thing. Mainly because when someone come out with a new thing, or manage to do something really incredible, people will ask : gears and stats? and then they will try to copy that builds blindly.

as for woe, people tend to be quite secretive about their builds except for a few persons. For big woe guild, they do have their own forum where they discuss about woe builds and strategies . So, yeah. Newbie cant really copy woe's build as easily as pvm's build. 

this might be not really a big thing, but it will make a lot of difference for a newbie to join a big guild and gain access to this large amount of information rather than joining a small guild and has to start from scratch.

plus it is kinda interesting that most people who give advice about build in class subforums are people from big guilds.


Edited by 3452140212150117003, 17 November 2015 - 10:04 AM.

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#175 Tanzanito

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 10:22 AM

But personally, I don't believe gods make that big a difference. LR for example was never saturated with gods, still isn't. We have one guild meg. But the big difference is people worked hard for their MVPs and gods, grinded and hunted them. It took a long time to get where we are now and never have I changed my stance on anything. Back then, when Chaos merged we were out godded, mvp'd by literally every guild from Valk, Ygg and Ymir, but were we discouraged? No. It was a fun challenge to fight stronger guilds and work our way up. 

But you have to understand the difference now is way bigger than it was before. Not only the gap wasn't THAT BIG, but you could actually get castles without big guilds bullying you in the last 5 minutes just because the way castle rewards works are stupid. 

 

As I said, people won't take as a fun challenge, being facerolled by stronger guilds and taking 1~3 years to reach the actual gear 'meta' IF kRO doesn't add more OP stuff, just like they do regularly. RO isn't that important in people's lives anymore, they will simply Alt+F4 and go back to their 1click play MOBA and *poof* here's your potential competition going away. Sure, you can say these people are lazy and everthing, but if it isn't these people, who will be your competition? PvM Kawaii-Desu Players?

 

And the objective of small guilds fighting small guilds is the opportunity of them to get experience and recruit more players, at the beginning it won't be a threat to the stronger guilds, of course, but in a long-term view they'll be able to improve themselves as WoE players and as a guild. Something that now is impossible, because they can't WoE and IF THEY DO they'll just to try to maybe get a random break.


Edited by Tanzanito, 17 November 2015 - 10:28 AM.

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