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WoE Rebalance and Event WoEs


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#151 schia

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 06:54 PM


I'm scared a third woe will be trolled hard by the "experienced" players. Experience is a lot more dangerous to a new player than gods/mvps imo, but there's no way to prevent this.

RO is pretty unforgiving in its learning curve

 

 

Without gods and mvp's new players can learn why they are losing.  New players cannot learn why they lost if they go up against gtb's, and double meg since all they they perceive are players being invulnerable and getting insta gibbed by EDP double meg grimtooth.  Allowing them to see why they lost even if they are being extremely outskilled/outcomped/outgeared is what new players need to learn.

 

Remove those elements, and they have the opportunity to learn what happened.  Who cares if you have 12 tryhard champs fisting a newb guild?  A non megged instacast fist is tankable if the target has decent resists, and sp builds don't have insta cast and they can see the cast bar of the gfist counting down to their death.  Autopotters?  They will see that person as being super tanky and they couldn't kill that person due to lack of focus, and they will learn that spamming consumables is what they need to do to survive which could potentially further drive them to gather more supplies via TI's or whatever.  More supplies and more TI's = stronger newbs in both levels and consumables.  Most newbs walk into woe/pvp without a 99/70, while they have to go up against guilds with more gods/mvps than players just churning out 99 transes on a conveyor belt from just thor spamming.

 

Besides, almost all of the remaining classic community are trash and just rely on gear to carry them.  The people that are against a no mvp/gods woe are the people that realize that they are garbage and can't do anything without their gears.   Throw out the gear and it'll just be garbage players vs newbs.  I would personally like to see a no gods/no cards woe to further level the playing field, but the current community is so garbage that they will never even accept anything other than instant ttk.

 

 

Adding crap to mvps, treasure boxes, guild dungeons, and end-game content will only make the strong stronger.  That is why this community is garbage.  None of you actually want things that would benefit new players because the community is so selfish that you all believe that if it doesn't benefit you then it doesn't belong in the game.  Focus on changes that will benefit FRESH players, not on your already bloated armory.

 

TL:DR inb4 <cinnabomb'd>


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#152 Xellie

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 07:12 PM

Without gods and mvp's new players can learn why they are losing.  New players cannot learn why they lost if they go up against gtb's, and double meg since all they they perceive are players being invulnerable and getting insta gibbed by EDP double meg grimtooth.  Allowing them to see why they lost even if they are being extremely outskilled/outcomped/outgeared is what new players need to learn.

 

Remove those elements, and they have the opportunity to learn what happened.  Who cares if you have 12 tryhard champs fisting a newb guild?  A non megged instacast fist is tankable if the target has decent resists, and sp builds don't have insta cast and they can see the cast bar of the gfist counting down to their death.  Autopotters?  They will see that person as being super tanky and they couldn't kill that person due to lack of focus, and they will learn that spamming consumables is what they need to do to survive which could potentially further drive them to gather more supplies via TI's or whatever.  More supplies and more TI's = stronger newbs in both levels and consumables.  Most newbs walk into woe/pvp without a 99/70, while they have to go up against guilds with more gods/mvps than players just churning out 99 transes on a conveyor belt from just thor spamming.

 

Besides, almost all of the remaining classic community are trash and just rely on gear to carry them.  The people that are against a no mvp/gods woe are the people that realize that they are garbage and can't do anything without their gears.   Throw out the gear and it'll just be garbage players vs newbs.  I would personally like to see a no gods/no cards woe to further level the playing field, but the current community is so garbage that they will never even accept anything other than instant ttk.

 

 

Adding crap to mvps, treasure boxes, guild dungeons, and end-game content will only make the strong stronger.  That is why this community is garbage.  None of you actually want things that would benefit new players because the community is so selfish that you all believe that if it doesn't benefit you then it doesn't belong in the game.  Focus on changes that will benefit FRESH players, not on your already bloated armory.

 

TL:DR inb4 <cinnabomb'd>

 

Not sure how you expect a reasonable response with all the random unnecessary additions to  that post.

 

Newbie players have a very hard time learning vs old ones, gods/ mvps or no (btw, they will need GR to tank even instant fists) becasue even without gods, damage can be so high that its hard to tell what killed you without an experienced player.

 

- says the player that keeps teaching guilds to sw the top right tile of emp

 

Anytime I tell people how they dun derped they get offended. It's not items 99% of the time I guarantee you of this. I literally have proof - but posting it will offend people.


Edited by Xellie, 27 November 2015 - 07:30 PM.

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#153 needmorezleep

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 07:30 PM

stuffs

the last time we tried that people threatened to send grievance reports to kro to get iro in trouble or something =(


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#154 rojoky113

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 07:48 PM

Without gods and mvp's new players can learn why they are losing.  New players cannot learn why they lost if they go up against gtb's, and double meg since all they they perceive are players being invulnerable and getting insta gibbed by EDP double meg grimtooth.  Allowing them to see why they lost even if they are being extremely outskilled/outcomped/outgeared is what new players need to learn.

 

Remove those elements, and they have the opportunity to learn what happened.  Who cares if you have 12 tryhard champs fisting a newb guild?  A non megged instacast fist is tankable if the target has decent resists, and sp builds don't have insta cast and they can see the cast bar of the gfist counting down to their death.  Autopotters?  They will see that person as being super tanky and they couldn't kill that person due to lack of focus, and they will learn that spamming consumables is what they need to do to survive which could potentially further drive them to gather more supplies via TI's or whatever.  More supplies and more TI's = stronger newbs in both levels and consumables.  Most newbs walk into woe/pvp without a 99/70, while they have to go up against guilds with more gods/mvps than players just churning out 99 transes on a conveyor belt from just thor spamming.

 

Besides, almost all of the remaining classic community are trash and just rely on gear to carry them.  The people that are against a no mvp/gods woe are the people that realize that they are garbage and can't do anything without their gears.   Throw out the gear and it'll just be garbage players vs newbs.  I would personally like to see a no gods/no cards woe to further level the playing field, but the current community is so garbage that they will never even accept anything other than instant ttk.

 

 

Adding crap to mvps, treasure boxes, guild dungeons, and end-game content will only make the strong stronger.  That is why this community is garbage.  None of you actually want things that would benefit new players because the community is so selfish that you all believe that if it doesn't benefit you then it doesn't belong in the game.  Focus on changes that will benefit FRESH players, not on your already bloated armory.

 

TL:DR inb4 <cinnabomb'd>

 

Uhhh being concerned about smaller growing guilds getting stomped is definitely about more than just god items. Large, well organized and well geared guilds are going to smash little inexperienced guilds with or without god items. Removing mvps/god items from the equation lets them focus on the base game more without having to counter particularly overpowered characters/strategies, but the big guilds on this server don't need those to run over little guilds. That is the exact reason that my woe suggestion for TE has 2.0 castles with appealing drops even if those drops aren't quite as good as normal woe. Big guilds need the more complicated, gvg centric playground to fight in so that little guilds have some more breathing room in 1.0. The whole point is to keep them from being suffocated by the big guilds on this server that will overpower them into discouragement with or without god items, while they grow and learn and have fun in TE before they are comfortable branching out to 2.0 and/or full woe. Plus, there is a sizeable community that enjoys a heavy focus on woe 2.0 gvg meta without those items, so it's win-win.

 

I agree with you about needing to expand on TIs after janeway and giving new players ways to explore the rest of the game at that point, and the need to give experienced players an incentive to help them and teach them. My post obviously talked about that.

 

I don't know why you are throwing around so much rage and insults into things, but your rant about players that don't want gods/mvps disabled being trash is pretty much entirely baseless and unnecessary (but you wonder why you get modded dude, for real?). Mvps and gods give players motivation to strive for, those gears are legendary in the eyes of many players and many players dream of being able to own and use them. They give woe oriented players a reason to play the game outside of woe and a reason to fight for a prize inside of it. They add really interesting possibilities and combat in woe, and it can be a ton of fun fighting to bring down the users of those powerful items, or being the person using them. Many people have spent months and months of their lives in efforts to reach those gears. Classic just has an unfortunate oversaturation of them due to small population and poor decisions, and while its not a great situation there can be damage control and the server still has potential.

 

Also, you do realize that grinding out levels or supplies to vend for other people isn't exactly the most exciting thing for new players to do for forever right? Nobody is disagreeing that more work needs to be done to improve the game for new players, for sure. But new players eventually become endgame players, that's kind of the whole point. This game would likely not still exist at all if not for woe, and mvping is a really big and enjoyable pvm endgame for players that get into it. There is zero wrong with working to make these things more appealing as well so that new and old players alike continue to stay and play this game.


Edited by rojoky113, 27 November 2015 - 08:02 PM.

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#155 Mischelle

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 07:54 PM

 Allowing them to see why they lost even if they are being extremely outskilled/outcomped/outgeared is what new players need to learn.

 

Take out MvP cards and the god items from guild pvp maps.  WoE experience will improve.

 

That's re-iterating.

 

My personal contribution is that Enlarge Weight limit skill via kafra shop should be removed.


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#156 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 08:35 PM

Take out MvP cards and the god items from guild pvp maps.  WoE experience will improve.

 

That's re-iterating.

 

My personal contribution is that Enlarge Weight limit skill via kafra shop should be removed.

 

For that (Enlarge Limit derp) to make any difference, Kafra Cards would also have to be removed or disabled on those maps.

 

The point of WoE is gods, hence gods should be usable in the game mode they're sourced from. Belts and Hammers are the only OP ones anyway, and a few people having those on isn't going to make a lot of difference to anything in a guild fight. Belts can only be used effectively in melee anyway, which is dangerous af to attempt in GvG. MVP cards... it depends on the card. Some are totally benign, some are useful but by no means OP, and a few are just broken (sup FBH).


Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 27 November 2015 - 08:53 PM.

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#157 schia

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 08:53 PM

Spoiler

 

Take out MvP cards and the god items from guild pvp maps.  WoE experience will improve.

 

That's re-iterating.

 

My personal contribution is that Enlarge Weight limit skill via kafra shop should be removed.

kafra enlarge weight limit being disabled on woe maps?  I think it would be an interesting addition though; however, I would also not trust the management in making a passive skill toggled on/off.   It would be an interesting concept as it would force a smaller limit on total supplies available.  I'd also probably restrict the use of kafra cards in woe maps if you want to go this route.  Actually seeing people run out of slims/supplies mid fight might be a refreshing change of pace.  Imagine needing to use logistic alts with vendors to resupply your guild during a defense, it would be interesting but I doubt the community would even consider ever wanting to change the infinite supply meta.

 

^ is the kind of player that the server needs.  Willing to want change that would benefit fresh players even though it would negatively affect themselves.  I wonder how many of you have spam reported me with all of your forum alts, its ok nothing relevant will come from any of this anyway.


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#158 Xellie

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 09:02 PM

A lot of the community disagrees with you

 

I'll leave it at that

 

#biggestguildleader


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#159 Kebtung

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 09:36 PM

Classic is just a private server with a garbage server software.  I'd rather see classic swap over to private server software and actually have open development instead of this mickey mouse code cannibalization the staff does.

I bet most pserver engines/projects out there (cannot be named here) are actually having fewer bugs compared to the current state of iRO. Thanks to a more active community and quicker action to bug reports.


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#160 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 27 November 2015 - 10:02 PM

I bet most pserver engines/projects out there (cannot be named here) are actually having fewer bugs compared to the current state of iRO. Thanks to a more active community and quicker action to bug reports.

 

You would be right about that, but none of them are perfect emulations. They all cut and revise things to "streamline" everything behind-the-scenes, which differentiates them from AEGIS to the extent that a decent player on, say, a Herc pserver actually has to relearn how certain things work on official AEGIS, especially with regards to skill and item functionality.

 

I personally don't - and if WP were to adopt it, wouldn't - bother playing on any server backend other than AEGIS. Just doesn't feel right.

 

Random note of interest, kRO have apparently been very open to talks regarding Classic's future recently. Camp has gone on record stating that they're having conversations that would not have ever happened a few years ago, and that this new exec that just came in is really trying to keep RO1 relevant, and is "fighting the fight for us." Apparently there's even talk on "modernizing" Classic's software and giving WP a bit more creative control to make positive changes.


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#161 Rayea

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 12:43 AM

For the Event WOES I would like to see WOE 2.0 open on saturdays at the same time as WOE 1.0 for the event WOEs so that the guilds who can't normally make it because of timezones and stuff can experience/try WOE 2.0 for once.


Edited by Rayea, 28 November 2015 - 12:44 AM.

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#162 Heart

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 03:31 AM

I bet most pserver engines/projects out there (cannot be named here) are actually having fewer bugs compared to the current state of iRO. Thanks to a more active community and quicker action to bug reports.

 

Sure, and how many of them last over an year? And are not pay to win?

 

Your comment is not helping, really.


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#163 needmorezleep

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 03:40 AM

quite a lot actually there's about 3~4 in na alone that have been online for over 5~7 years with higher population than classic itself

overseas we have servers that have numbers higher than jro with similar lifespans 

 

hiring devs that work on "hard" games with locked software is honestly the key for getting anywhere with aegis's limitation on classic and should be something they should get contracted like i believe they do for rose? or is it dragon saga? would help classic a lot really


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#164 Kebtung

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 04:28 AM

Sure, and how many of them last over an year? And are not pay to win?

 

Your comment is not helping, really.

 

I don't think you understand what I was talking about. I'm not talking about servers but the emulators or engines.


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#165 Xellie

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:02 AM

I would guess that violates some license agreement somewhere


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#166 Mischelle

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 10:13 PM

For that (Enlarge Limit derp) to make any difference, Kafra Cards would also have to be removed or disabled on those maps.

 

The point of WoE is gods, hence gods should be usable in the game mode they're sourced from. Belts and Hammers are the only OP ones anyway, and a few people having those on isn't going to make a lot of difference to anything in a guild fight. Belts can only be used effectively in melee anyway, which is dangerous af to attempt in GvG. MVP cards... it depends on the card. Some are totally benign, some are useful but by no means OP, and a few are just broken (sup FBH).

 

I would make the case also for the removal of kafra cards, but I think the removal of enlarge weight should be sufficient.  The ability to reload isn't as completely overpowered as the ability to simply have a massive stockpile at all times.

 

The other problem with increase weight isn't just the amount of potions, but gear.  With the skill, a 1 base Str SinX can wear 2 megs and still have weight left over for supplies.  Now I know that 1+80+Bonus isn't max damage, but when you consider that it enables some very flee and vit heavy builds to also do decent damage, the mechanics become imbalanced.

 

In other words, weight limit is a balancing mechanic, not just an inconvenience.

 

With regards to god items and mvp cards, whether or not they are part of the function of WoE is only part of the debate.  Each topic or mechanic really has 2 things to consider, first, if the subject was intended, and second, whether the subject is balanced from a game perspective.  Even if you successfully contend that gods were intended they clearly aren't balanced.

 

But balance isn't in dispute, really.  The question is, is it acceptable that these items aren't balanced?  I would say that acceptability is whether the existence of these items and the ability to use them in WoE draws more people to play than it repels.  Many players enjoy WoE without the use of such items.

 

These god items have many uses outside WoE, and are attractive goals even if they were removed from GvG.

 

Finally, there have been many options tried and failed to improve the WoE scene, completely banning god items and mvp cards has yet to be tried.  Given the number of merges, resets, and content that has been implemented and removed, even if removing MvPs, miniboss, and god items from the WoE scene fails miserably, the policy can be changed and the items can be restored at a later time, no harm done.

 

^ is the kind of player that the server needs.  Willing to want change that would benefit fresh players even though it would negatively affect themselves.  I wonder how many of you have spam reported me with all of your forum alts, its ok nothing relevant will come from any of this anyway.

 

To be clear, even if everything I suggest becomes implemented, I won't participate in any server events or in-game community.  Not only has it been made clear that I am not wanted or welcome, but the grave insult of affixing my main character to renewal alongside all my gear has yet to be remedied.


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#167 schia

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 11:01 PM


To be clear, even if everything I suggest becomes implemented, I won't participate in any server events or in-game community.  Not only has it been made clear that I am not wanted or welcome, but the grave insult of affixing my main character to renewal alongside all my gear has yet to be remedied.

 

pretty sure everyone that isn't in like 1 or 2 guilds isn't wanted or welcome to play the current game.  No one relevant wants to come back to play and the non garbage players only use RO as a glorified chat room.  Changing the focus from trying to regain old players towards retaining fresh players would be the only viable long term strategy to keep this game alive.  Honestly I still think a server reset is needed because that is the only way to get rid of the current garbage community.  A fresh server would not work as new players would be more attracted towards the higher population.  Doubtful that warpportal even has the assets to support another server anyway, not without severely degrading the quality of other servers that is.


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#168 Hrishi

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:21 AM

pretty sure everyone that isn't in like 1 or 2 guilds isn't wanted or welcome to play the current game.  No one relevant wants to come back to play and the non garbage players only use RO as a glorified chat room.  Changing the focus from trying to regain old players towards retaining fresh players would be the only viable long term strategy to keep this game alive.  Honestly I still think a server reset is needed because that is the only way to get rid of the current garbage community.  A fresh server would not work as new players would be more attracted towards the higher population.  Doubtful that warpportal even has the assets to support another server anyway, not without severely degrading the quality of other servers that is.

 

Precisely. It's not only to fix classic's current problems. Even if classic were to go down a similar destructive path, having the community be reset by a new server is only a positive. Of course, we can hope that people learn from their mistakes and some are not repeated.


Edited by Hrishi, 30 November 2015 - 07:21 AM.

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#169 schia

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:43 AM

Precisely. It's not only to fix classic's current problems. Even if classic were to go down a similar destructive path, having the community be reset by a new server is only a positive. Of course, we can hope that people learn from their mistakes and some are not repeated.

 

pretty sure all the guilds that are complete garbage and does nothing but act like a toxic cesspool of the community would just quit because they can't handle not being carried by their gear.  This would only be good for the new server.  IMO its still too late for a reset though because not enough non toxic players remain, nor would they be willing to come back.  Considering that the current timing is already bad as well since summer would have been the optimal timeframe.  Back in summer, younger players had more free time, adults didn't have to deal with holidays, the real RO2 wasn't out yet for beta testing, and not needing to compete with decent private servers that are popping up right now that is fighting to fill the niche of what classic should have been.  They missed their best chance, so whatever deal with it.


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#170 Hrishi

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 08:10 AM

pretty sure all the guilds that are complete garbage and does nothing but act like a toxic cesspool of the community would just quit because they can't handle not being carried by their gear.  This would only be good for the new server.  IMO its still too late for a reset though because not enough non toxic players remain, nor would they be willing to come back.  Considering that the current timing is already bad as well since summer would have been the optimal timeframe.  Back in summer, younger players had more free time, adults didn't have to deal with holidays, the real RO2 wasn't out yet for beta testing, and not needing to compete with decent private servers that are popping up right now that is fighting to fill the niche of what classic should have been.  They missed their best chance, so whatever deal with it.

 

The Winter break is still a good time to release a new server. A lot of people go on holiday and there is a current lack of "classic" servers, even in the pserver scene. Unfortunately that kind of timeframe is probably too short for WP to handle and they'll miss their chance.


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#171 Oda

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 03:44 PM

pretty sure all the guilds that are complete garbage and does nothing but act like a toxic cesspool of the community would just quit because they can't handle not being carried by their gear.  

So what does a comment like this really do to help Classic? I don't want to see posts like this on the boards. 


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#172 zerowon

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 04:39 PM

To add something the 3 guilds with the less gods/mvp cards went at it in 1 castle and all were entertained I feel a number cap should be introduced or suffer a severe penalty if your simply over powering lesser guilds like they do in actual league play. If we're still wanting be reductions we can try the kvm as it was a balancing patch to nerf hw/ biochems and champion damage. To those who can't afford super rare /pricey gear

Edited by zerowon, 30 November 2015 - 04:40 PM.

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#173 Xellie

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 05:09 PM

To add something the 3 guilds with the less gods/mvp cards went at it in 1 castle and all were entertained I feel a number cap should be introduced or suffer a severe penalty if your simply over powering lesser guilds like they do in actual league play. If we're still wanting be reductions we can try the kvm as it was a balancing patch to nerf hw/ biochems and champion damage. To those who can't afford super rare /pricey gear

 

That is kind of a strange comment to make considering nobody knows who owns all the god items/mvps on the server as we are denied a list of ownership. If players are to be held accountable for the items they own, then they should register the items and be licensed to use them.

 

We have approximately 19 megingjards, but since WoE 2 is a ranged meta, they stay in storage.

 

j/k we sell most our creations. They're in your guild.

 

The point: we can make up whatever bs numbers and statistics we want about all the other guilds on the server, but unless we get the true numbers and such from the staff everything is theorycraft and irrelevant to the real situation


Edited by Xellie, 30 November 2015 - 05:18 PM.

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#174 Rockerox

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 05:32 PM

So as the holiday season is coming up it is time for us to plan for event WoEs.

 

I also would like to take this opportunity to try some rebalanceing to WoE with an eye towards making them more lasting changes to the WoE Scene.

 

The process will go as follows

 

We open classic Sakray with the rebalance changes. You get to test them out. Play with them. Try them out.

We make them live with the event woes. If players like them we keep them. If players don't we throw them out. Event WoEs are the most useful time to beta test these things.

 

 

Section 1 - Gods and MVP cards

God items and MVP cards are supposed to be end tier times. They are supposed to be all powerful and getting one is the apex of your character's career. However due to this they are rather imbalanced when it comes to WoE and small numbers.

 

There are multiple ways to address this.

1. Increase the supply of God Items and MVP cards in WoE - This is an extreme measure that would make it more balanced if everyone has them.

2. Remove God Items and MVP cards from WoE - This is an extreme measure that will punish players who based builds completely around these items.

3. Reduce the effects of God Items and MVP Cards in WoE - A more balanced measure. The idea is that these cards and items maintain their supremacy but are brought down to be more inline with the general items in the game.

 

Because I would like to believe I have some sanity left I think we should go with option 3.

 

Example,

 

Hibram Card

  • Current Effects
    • MATK + 10%
    • SP Max -50%
    • MATK vrs Angel + 50%
    • MATK vrs Demuhuman + 50%

 

  • WoE Effects
    • MATK + 10%
    • SP Max -50%
    • MATK vrs Angel + 20%
    • MATK vrs Demuhuman + 20%

 

Bad example I created ignore it, just archived so players may laugh.

Spoiler

 

Obviously these values can be changed as we test. Now before we start on this what are your thoughts? Concerns? Keep it Civil! If you cannot I will remove your access to foundry threads.

 

 

is good idea  .

 

2. Remove God Items and MVP cards from WoE - This is an extreme measure that will punish players who based builds completely around these items.

 

 

 Remove God Items and MVP cards from WoE 

 

It is better for there to be a balance and not much power abuser. I think it's the best. only for woes. have no effect and does not serve anything. that for leveling and all that continue to operate, but not for woe. excellent idea. well done Campitor support you.


Edited by Rockerox, 30 November 2015 - 05:33 PM.

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#175 Rockerox

Rockerox

    Too Legit To Quit

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 05:34 PM

I think that for Woe TE, should be all mvp card, prohibited.

 

I think that . As this is now very soft, such as not allowed to use: add I will leave a list of things that can prohibit., to make it more fun and less power abuser

Prohibiting  items. ( normal)

  • WoE and WoE2 God Items
  • Bellum weapons
  • WoE equipment
  • Glorious equipment and weapons

Prohibiting new items./ add is good idea

Ghostring card.

Battlegrounds ( weapons & gear & accesory )

Bakonawa agimat Tatto

and most importantly all the MVPs card./ NO TAO , NO MEMORY OF THANATOS - ETC...

 

I think that making these changes will be better and more fun. abusor not so much power and be more equitable for all.It would be more old school (beginning of woe) as it should be  :) just my humble opinion. I hope you think. it would be great . back to antiquity as it was before all this again.


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