21 replies to this topic

[ThePigKeeper]

Hello,

 

 

The title says it all :

 

How can we make the DOT (damage over time) mecanic better than it is right now ?

 

IT's clearly worthless and does not work the character's base damage statistic.

So instead of puting a lv effect that deals and does nothing AT ALL, why not nerfing the abilities dmg and therefore buff the dot for a flat amount of dmg + %of the character's dmg output ?

That'd be more fair since it could scale with the weapong and character dmg.

 

What do you guys think of that ?

 

Edited by ThePigKeeper, 25 November 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[flubsy]

DoT works, the problem is element dmg doesn't get affected by DoT and summoner doesn't get affected by DoT.

 

after 5 hits of "x" or "aas"  the dmg goes down to around 100 dmg per hit, but element basically negates that.

[ThePigKeeper]

In which case does the DoT work ?

I mean, the less I've seen so far, is a DoT that actually deals only 11 dmg per second without any other extra effect.. (refering to "Blazing Youth")

So do you say that this is somehow linked to the elemental resistances ?

 

Because I'm mainly talking about the PVE aspect, which does not take any elemental resistance into consideration (or maybe it has changed ?)

Edited by ThePigKeeper, 25 November 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[Homurasan]

Flub, DoT means "damage over time" and refers to status effects such as poison or burn. Not sure what the X-attacks and summoners are doing here.

 

Other than that, this idea seems at least interesting.

[Precrush]

Think he meant that they do function as intended with saying they work, as you said they do do 11 dmg per second so technically speaking they "work".

 

Currently they have no place in the game though, as the dmg is that low. I think the way to make them stronger would be to make them do a certain % of your damage. That would make sense and I doubt it would cause any problems or make those effects over powered, as long as that % is kind of low.

 

I was thinking, maybe invoker could be a new found home for dot effects someday, they do lack offensive skills and can only x-spam. So should x-spam get nerfed, adding a few skills that have some sort of a stronger dot effect would nicely take invokers in a new direction. Think skills that inflict dot's would be something that could be made in the future, since they wouldn't need complicated animations or effects, but I wouldn't know that for sure. Invokers do already have a few skills it could fit to already, barbarian and quagmire could do some sort of ice and poison damage. 

[ThePigKeeper]

Currently they have no place in the game though, as the dmg is that low. I think the way to make them stronger would be to make them do a certain % of your damage. That would make sense and I doubt it would cause any problems or make those effects over powered, as long as that % is kind of low.

 

 

Yeah that's the point !

 

I mean, now that they're here, we have to make something out of it.

So yes, % of the total dmg would be really good and give to certain skills a new utility !

It would not take that much effort to do and that's even cooler !

 

Or what about DoTs that take in account the amount of enemies caught in the spell ?

So that isolated target would take more than clustered enemies (Directly refering to the PvE/PvP, giving to the DoT a real utilty in PvP without impacting the PvE gameplay)

Rangers, Warriors and Mages would benefit a lot from this !

Edited by ThePigKeeper, 25 November 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[Coolsam]

Some DoT's have decent secondary effects.

Burn from Destroyers is a slight mana drain as well.

Bleed decreases max hp on application and it doesn't give that lost max health back when the bleed finishes.

The damage over time is only useful at low levels however.

[StormHaven]

Some DoT's have decent secondary effects.

Burn from Destroyers is a slight mana drain as well.

Bleed decreases max hp on application and it doesn't give that lost max health back when the bleed finishes.

The damage over time is only useful at low levels however.

 

2 different types of bleeding.

 

Normal bleeding which does 200hp/sec

and Profuse bleeding which does 10dmg/sec and decrease opponents max hp by 10%.

 

 

On another note only Destroyer/Invokers burn and Sentinel's bleed do some insane damage since they're constantly reapplied.

[Agitodesu]

I think the person is intending to change DoT damage of particular classes. Some classes have very good DoT, especially destroyers passive and a few other skills that storm haven has mentioned, and other skills that I could potentially list out (but I won't since I assume everyone is smart) really won't make a difference. The puny damage over time of let's say 11 damage per second for an x amount of time is pretty pathetic in both pvp and pve.(In pvp it depends on how often you can apply it, in many games that have a combat system with a DoT, you can potentially maximize damage with those even if they don't do much damage initially).

Then again, some people here really don't want anything changed at all because it the damage is meant to do what it does. Some random DoT that does x damage was probably intended considering it was never changed for 6-7+ years regardless of how the level cap was raised, how the damage naturally dealt late game is higher, how useful putting in 75-100 sp into the cloud kill passive or whatever is. Not that I know much about anything anymore. I'm just talking out of my behind now since everything I say is usually null and void.

[Coolsam]

Dragon Saga doesn't really have anything that relies on DoT's however. Also there's nothing that benefits from going for targets with DoT's. Only a handful of them are actually potentially lethal (Chief Rokko's breath for example, really high DoT to a level 40, lack-luster after 50-60 where HLT is much easier to get) or at least have a good backup effect (Profuse Bleeding, Destroyer's burn, etc).

 

Agitodesu raises a good point as some values may have been added as long as 6+ years ago and never took into account future level-cap raises or gear additions. Back then breaking 300 HLT was a considerable challenge and little to no means of +% Max HP were there, now 900-1,000+ HLT with high +% Max HP could be reached on any class.

 

Does this mean buff DoT's? Not really. Maybe find a system to make them work without:

A: They become useless entirely

or

B: They become so strong you can just pop a few DoT's and run while it kills them over time.

[Agitodesu]

That would be nice

Edited by Agitodesu, 24 November 2015 - 11:32 AM.

[Precrush]

There is a middle ground where dots would be a nice addition to the different skills classes have, and I wouldn't be too concerned with "how the game was intended" necessarily, since I don't have much respect for the devs of the past. Some dot's were under powered from the start from what I recall.

 

Honestly I don't know anything about how strong destroyer dots are, I just thought they were as bad as the others, since I've never really seen, or I guess noticed them in action. The bleed thing is nice, but it doesn't really come down to the dot does it.

 

I just don't like having completely useless skills and effects in game, would like for them all to have some function. That may not be possible, but it is something that can be worked towards for sure.

[Agitodesu]

Destroyer burns are quite good despite how DoTs play in pve and pvp. Given time (as most DoT gets good as time passes) the passive can potentially burn out mana from someone who is mana hungry. Examples would include twins, dragoons, overlord, and so on. Although it isn't my best intention to stack int, but using skills that cost 100+ mana per skill and the debuff would burn you out.(pun totally intended). Never did I once say in pvp that "only if the burn was not op". Default damage is way higher than DoTs. Except sentinels. Those books are really op of you don't have the health to keep up. Then again if you get caught once, you're dead.

[StormHaven]

My only concern about buffing DoTs is the impact it would have on sentinels, we're already annoying enough and  making 4/4 of our dots actually "good" we'd need to nerf our damage overall just to keep it balanced.

 

 

[Agitodesu]

Wouldn't it be better to buff certain skills rather than all at once? Unless the DoT levels are correlated with each other.

[Precrush]

Ye ofcourse you would look at all of them individually if possible. And I doubt a class would be too strong even with 4 good dots. It all comes down to how much damage they would do though. Skills like ninjas poison dagger could use some help anyway.

[5143121023173906760]

Ye ofcourse you would look at all of them individually if possible. And I doubt a class would be too strong even with 4 good dots. It all comes down to how much damage they would do though. Skills like ninjas poison dagger could use some help anyway.

DoTs can actually be useful. But their damage are insignificant against element damage and can be nullified by using hp potions or skill that removes it.
I don't think they are really useful in high level content but can really help for PvP under level 50 and PvE under level 40 (or 50 too if you don't use element damages.)

[Agitodesu]

Oh I see. Although for cloud kill, the 10 damage per tick is quite low for being damage nor does it last long enough to make a big difference in low tier pvp or pve. I assume since with a level 25 weapon I do 2300 damage+ on my sorcerer. and 10 damage is approximately 0.4% damage over time and usually hits 3 times before the initial 10 damage poison, making it 0.1% damage. And note this is a level 25 weapon. If you use a high level weapon, you better hope to see a lot more 0's.

To some skills, yes the debuffs are quite strong in low tier pvp such as that book of doom by hunters. Those things hurt when you don't have any health to begin with.

Edited by Agitodesu, 25 November 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[Precrush]

The good thing about making them scale with weapon or total damage is that they would automatically scale with levels as well, since your attack goes higher.

[ThePigKeeper]

The good thing about making them scale with weapon or total damage is that they would automatically scale with levels as well, since your attack goes higher.

 

 

And that's the point !

Let's take the skill Blazing youth (Dragon Saga Wiki)

 

http://ds.irowiki.or...i/Blazing_Youth

 

If we click on "burn" we have this

 

http://ds.irowiki.org/wiki/Burn

 

We clearly see that it doesn't scale with the ATT stat which is COMPLETLY sad since it does not encourage people to invest points in this skills especially at high level.

And I find it game breaker.

 

I feel like it's part of a bigger problem : Why do first classes suck at high level whereas they should be part of our gameplay no matter which skill we take (I'm looking at you "Lauch" "Blow" "Sword mastery")

 

I propose :

 

The "Burn" effect should EITHER scale with the ATT stat OR with the target's max HP/max MP.

Edited by ThePigKeeper, 25 November 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[StormHaven]

And that's the point !

Let's take the skill Blazing youth (Dragon Saga Wiki)

 

http://ds.irowiki.or...i/Blazing_Youth

 

If we click on "burn" we have this

 

http://ds.irowiki.org/wiki/Burn

 

We clearly see that it doesn't scale with the ATT stat which is COMPLETLY sad since it does not encourage people to invest points in this skills especially at high level.

And I find it game breaker.

 

I feel like it's part of a bigger problem : Why do first classes suck at high level whereas they should be part of our gameplay no matter which skill we take (I'm looking at you "Lauch" "Blow" "Sword mastery")

 

I propose :

 

The "Burn" effect should EITHER scale with the ATT stat OR with the target's max HP/max MP.

 

scaling with Atk maybe. scaling with targets Max HP/MP nope nope nope nope, we've already seen how terrible an idea of scaling a DoT off max hp/mp(looking at you mana burn). Scaling with current hp/mp would probably be the most balanced overall.

 

Also keep in mind DoTs ignore P.def and M.def.
 

[ThePigKeeper]

Also keep in mind DoTs ignore P.def and M.def.

 

 

Yeah but with current dmg stats, it's really not big deal at all.