"80% of level 230 players in this game botted their way there"
Let's add some more detail to this.
Wheres your data to support this oddly even and specific '80%' figure?
The claim that a large volume [majority or not] of players in the game botted at some point or another, is most likely true, but only if you're counting players who joined the game approximately July 2009. Oddly specific but it's due to the fact that in July 2008, ROSE Evo went Free2Play. It took about a year for the botting + multiclient to catch on in a serious fashion. So for the first 4.5 years of ROSES life [almost 1/2 of the time since it's inception] Botting didn't really exist in any meaningful fashion.
So if you want to say
"I'd assume that 80% or so of players that are level 230 and have joined ROSE since 2009 or later, have botted t one point or another" Then I would agree. But a large volume of players also Don't~ bot.
Strange because you also provide no stats. I'm sure the 80% is wrong but we can all agree that a substantial number are max simply because of it. A large volume of players also don't bot? How do you know this? There is a vast majority that don't interact with the community. I know for a fact that botting was big at the top players of the game since the beginning because I knew these players, back when no one could even get 1m zulie to start a clan a botter not even a hacker just walked up to me and gave me 300m because he liked me.
"Spamming AoE isn't fun"
You're right, it's not fun. That's why a party of active players don't do that. They roam, party quest, hunt bosses and bounce between spawns to optimize their exp gain.
Optimizing gameplay is clearly staying in one spot and aoe killing for the majority of the time, which is why even when you join active parties this is what they do. No active party roams beyond luring and finding a new spot to sit at.
"There are pretty much no partys going on these days without botters as it is"
Which is related to 2 factors.
1: A lack of enforcement of the rules
2: A lack of questing and party functions at certain level ranges.
They're solving fact 1 right now.
Fact 2 comes into play, that once their no choice but to actively play the game, more and more people will get involved in proposing quest ideas and content for the zones that lack content.
There is after-all a quest proposals section, and several quests have been implemented from those suggestions. This more strict enforcement of the rules will encourage more participation in that area, as with the current botting play-sttyle, there was a lack of interest in it because they just avoided the issue all together. Now, it can be properly addressed.
Everyone here that is so ra ra ra about enforcement doesn't understand that 1. It doesn't work. 2. Point 2 is the only way to start since incentive switches from botting being the most optimized to actually playing being the most optimized way to play the game. Botting can't be, has never been and will not be solved by enforcement first and actually making the game so that botting is not the best choice latter. It hasn't been for any game I have ever played. I have top in the world experience on multiple games that competition was infinitely more grueling than here. I have never seen a botting situation solved by enforcement. I have seen it solved multiple times by changing the game incentive.
"Take the botters away and there will be no partys what so ever."
For the first 4.5 years there was hardly any botting, and many many people still got high level or level cap and enjoyed the game. History of ROSE has already told us that this is a lie. The only people who will give up are the people who want an 'easy button' for gaming. Once this enforcement catches on, people who enjoy active play will invite more players, and the game could potentially grow in population over it. So, it's a change out of the demographics of who plays ROSE. Less laziness, more dedication from players. This might also result in more player referrals to the game.
Where are you stats for this claim? I know for a fact that the top players all were botting. I was given the best items and absurd amounts of zulie that no other real player had from botters which is exactly why I have gone off and on with this game since the start. Let alone the dupping and hacking that happened in the early game and up through gameguard which is a joke btw for any serious dupper and hack to get around.
"Like it or not botters are what keeps ROSE going"
No, botters are what keeps ROSE going in the direction it's currently headed. And with the massive amount of 'the game is boring' complaints, a change of direction and methodology is what we need.
To be honest you are both correct and incorrect here. Botting is artificially keeping players around despite the lack of actual gameplay to be had. The actual player base would significantly decrease without it and new actual players don't stay because the only real options are botting and Item Mall which the development team is quite happy to work on as opposed to the actual game that keeps players around.
"You say a big community doesn't matter"
No one single person has ever said that, and the staff doesn't advocate that thought process either. In fact, botting doesn't have ANY effect on the number of players in the game, it only affects the number of characters* in the game. There's a big difference between number of players, and number of characters. A difference that get's lost in a gray area quite often. The number of people in a community, is not linked to the number of characters created. We know this by simply looking at the free premium events. Character creation sky rockets, but WP account registration hardly moves unless someone hit their maximum ROSE registered account limit.
Technically it does effect the number of players, people actually stay in the game because of the enjoyment from botting. Now this can be contested I know but what is true is since the actual game offers so little botting offers essentially another feature for a lot of players that would not otherwise stick around. You can mince words and make yourself believe what ever you want but while amount of characters does not correlate to player base what remains true is more staying because of enjoyment from botting. If they didn't enjoy it they wouldn't do it let's be serious.
"I don't want to read another answer provided with the same thing over and over, that isn't even backed by any reasons or examples."
Where is your factual backed information at? I mean, I argued based on past historical events of ROSE, and the direct results following those. Facts that can be checked on the Wiki and game review sites. As well as meta and dynamic changes that occurred from game mechanic changes. You're just arguing pro-botting by using threats of player loss, when the data supports that bot-banning will people of one mind-set and replace them with players of a new mind-set. It evens itself out and ends up creating a new more engaging environment.
So why don't you let that sink in for a moment, cause I'm tired of reading doom-sayer posts when the real fact is bots have only been around actively for 1/2 of ROSES lifetime, and it did BETTER numbers and activity without them [also proven by fact checking the Wiki and Business numbers].
I'm sorry but you are no different and are being hypocritical here. Yes there have been a lot that offered no reasoning and just non sequitors. There are also some that have offered real reasoning. Both sides have lack of facts in a lot of areas but reasoning can make up for a big divide in that area. Stating some past history did not actually provide facts, just opinion. Just like I have done the same for the opposite. The only difference is those that have advocated for enforcement have not gotten past the non sequitor arguments and fall back on feelings. While that is fine, it is not a good argument. There has been botting since the start of this game simply because of the nature of it. The game is a grind, which lends itself to botting since that is what players essentially do in the game but they are the bot.
For being a grind game there are multiple ways to keep that inherent nature while diminishing the incentive for botting. While we have stuns/mute/sleep, it would be best if mobs had random time elements that if dealt with ( like a human ) the player receives an advantage while in combat and the opposite if not. Random elements in combat are the key because it requires more sophisticated botting methods to get around. There have also been very good points for other things like questing that make it less useful to bot or require more effort to do it than to not.
Why do so many of our skills literally do the same thing just better? Everyone should have multiple skills that do much more than just dmg or stun/mute/sleep ( those three things are the exact same thing give or take )
For example skill x is used. For 2 seconds in a 10 second time window after that if a player uses skill y it has triple the damage but only in that 2 second window. If the player fails to use it in that window skill y does half the damage it normally should. There are all sorts of ways like that which could be implemented if time was taken from the item mall to make grinding monsters more engaging and harder for people to bot. I don't have the solutions, however I know that almost any solution people have given is better than enforcement.
Enforcement is literally putting players against other players and using vast human resources for both players and gms when that time could be spent on an actual solution. Every minute wasted on enforcement is a minute taken away from making this game actually bot free.
The air raids got 50 bots in November, what a joke I can go out and find 100 afk botters in a single day. Is it worth my time? No. Do I report botters? No. I don't want to waste anymore of the gm time and honestly I don't want to lose a lot of players that would be happy not to bot if only the other options were viable. People are good, we are acting like botters are the devil when they would happily not bot if the incentive was not to bot. The game is literally setup right now so that you are a human bot, so why wouldn't people explore a machine botting for them? Technically that is the smart answer. Not the one we all want, but doing the smart thing isn't always what is quote in quote the right thing to do.
We can all agree that we don't want botting. This is just clearly the wrong way to go. Enforcement especially in a free to play game is a joke. A sick twisted joke that takes away from any real solution. Lets find a real solution please.
i always waited for this moment, that we could get rid of botters, and i will say one thing, I DO had already botted, idc if im saying i already botted or w/e, but one thing i will say, i will NEVER do it again, 24/7 in a spot auto aoe, wth is that? is like im in hell, srsly so boring to be there and bla bla bla, wen i stopped botting, i started reporting most of bots, wana know how frustated i was?
Yes it is boring! Because we play as human bots right now!
Oh yes the knight in shining armor, he changed his ways and is now on the path of good! Lets see how this post ends....
my reports was 0
this might be a f2p game, but it is need to use bot? is like u using hacks in the game, also since you, and the other guy that is frustated about this, is like u guys dont care about u acc, lvl up with botters is like u guys are botters too
Right says the guy that just literally talked about actually botting as opposed to leveling with them. I didn't have to say I did, but I did because it was valid and important for the reasoning of my argument. I do care about my account, I hardly think leveling with them means I should be banned. For all you know I could have been oblivious to the fact that they were botters, they were talking to me and not afk just by the way.
one thing i will say, u can start botting, but wen u make a new char and want to lvl up, u wont be motivated to do it again, because is boring af, and the only thing u will do is, afk in the city doing nothing
Funny how you don't see that you just made my point for me. Botting doesn't make the game boring, it increases the amount of fun for a vast sum of players right now. Otherwise people wouldn't be really botting now would they? Maybe you wouldn't have been motivated to get through your first character because very quickly you begin to realize how you are literally a human bot and you decide that being masochistic really isn't your thing. You don't do nothing because you botted you do nothing because you are bored. Botting has nothing to do with you being bored, the game does.
i just use bot for open boxes (since the bot i have is for hotkeys) but due that hell program, i'm not even motivated for lvl up anymore in rose with it .....
ANY mmorpg is supose to be fun, ppl exploring, etc, not afk in one place, get max lvl, pvp only and done, but u guys never learn that.
I have learned that, which is why it sucks that complete zones wether you bot or not are such a disadvantage that players never go there. You literally stated my point again, it isn't fun exploring for very long in this game. The whole point is human botting and since that is the point exploring isn't fun or enjoyable. If this game had those things to offer people would be doing them, they aren't for a reason and i'm sick and tired of everyone being the emu that sticks their head in the sand saying everyone else should find what is fun with it when people do what they do for a reason. People enjoy having fun, they tend to do the most fun thing. Which is what we currently see, which doesn't speak well for this game as of right now sadly.
Despite that I was with botting parties at areas that are never frequented by bots. (Not a single spot mentioned in the air raid) I found a cool spot and enjoyed being alone with this botting group not seeing anyone else while we happily talked and leveled up.
now if u want to know how botters is annoying, go to Lineage 2 (original server) and try to lvl up u char, in that time u will see many orcs mages, guess what, wen u target a monster, the bot is already killing it, it is that fun? low spots taked by bots?
yeah that's one of the other disadvantages of botting, what's the fun taking a spot for farm materials wile the bot is runing not allowing newbies play normaly
We are in complete agreement here, that isn't fun. Let's find a way to make it so that botting is not incentivised and so people no longer feel the need to do it anymore.
the problem is, if there wasn't no bots, players would be already exploring the map and having fun with friends
you don't know how beautifull is Luna planet, you guys just skip it like Luna is nothing
Funny everyone always goes after bots are the reason why fun can't be had. Technically a bot has nothing to do with you going out and exploring. It doesn't stop you from grouping with friends. It doesn't stop you from enjoying some of the really wonderful spots on luna. Why does everyone regardless of if they are a bot or not sit at the luna bears in Mana Snowfields ? Because exploring doesn't return fun on the investment of the exploration. People play the game like it was designed. Bot your lvls up wether you are a human bot or a machine.
P.S. Mount Eur.... at the saber tooths is a really fun spot with a group and they give good amounts of exp. No one is ever there because they do the quests in Mana Snowfields because those are so good they can't be passed up.
soo yeah before u 2 be like that "oh no how i will lvl up nw ...." maybe try to lvl up one char per turn (get strategy wich one should be important nw), take u dam time, and just have fun, is not like this u guys will have fun.
keeping like this (lvling up with botters) u guys will lose the motivation faster then getting lvl max and gear up
just saying
and again, i do botted, but it was a hell experience that i wont repeat again
if u dont believe me, ask angel, or pam, trang, katsura, maybe anyone that ik if i do bot again, is been months i dont play rose due boredoom and this program, i just installed again my rose for do a project in mind, and maybe in holidays i might will lvl up my Dual pvp char, might will be hard but there's ways
I'm sorry at this point your amount of ad hominem and blatant lack of any reasonable argument is just becoming tiresome to answer. Botting doesn't stop you from having fun, technically you can choose to not bot and on top of that be in areas that people don't bot. I did and had a fun time by the way. You don't because you keep showing over and over how you are a human bot in this game which is the real reason you are bored and are not having fun. Bots don't take your fun, the game does. You lose motivation because of the games, bots don't take your motivation. If you did what you preached then bots don't effect you. You won't find parties because that route leads you to where people don't go because everyone is a human bot and both the human bots and real bots pick the best areas to be a bot.
Now ways for lvl up
from 1 to 100~120, do quests
once u can get into dungeons, get a group and do toons of dungeons to 200, after 200 is more easy to lvl up
u guys are luck due Devs allowed exp in DGs, before only premium could get exp, but now everyone can get, soo use it wiselly, because the exp u get from DGs is more then the exp u get from OT and ruins
~FilipeKun
Thanks for the informative part on the end! To be honest 120-200 can't be done by dungeons first of all your human bot buddies won't do it with you. I know I tried with multiple groups and they all pushed to go be human bots at a spot instead of pushing through a dungeon. Dungeon groups are non-existant 120-200 I have sat for 24 hours in queue the other day. Dungeons are not good exp because they are too hard at this level for human bots that haven't invested in gear and a stun for the bosses/mobs and so in most cases they literally can't even be done by groups. I tried super hard to make a dungeon happen, could never finish one yet, hopefully I can enjoy them when i'm 200. They clearly aren't more xp than OT and ruins because I couldn't level at all in dungeons and I did 150-160 in OT in one night and 10+ levels again another night in ruins without much trouble at all no sigil and no stupid IM items by the way. Lets be serious if the time that was put into IM was put into the game it would be doing very well right now.
stop complaining ,, if you dont like it , then just find another game where you allowed to bot ...
stop being lazy , its not good for your future ( real life )
Let me make this point seriously because I won't ever answer it again and everyone that has made this point is using blatant ad hominem instead of actual argument. I don't bot. I don't want botters. That is the whole point. How do we actually move the game away from botting. Enforcement is so clearly the wrong answer it stuns me how so many fall for this trap.
Oh yep, lets go ahead and perma ban the 80% of the community who bots to level 230, Nobody finds it fun to sit there and spam aoes on the same mobs for days on end.
This is what you guys put your time into? Rather than working on a better end game content. *facepalm* 10/10 guys not at all a waste of time, Who cares if people bot, not like rose has an active community anyways, some players are better than none right? no matter how they got to 230. This might be a good patch if the game had more than 2000 players but the fact is that it's almost a dead game, can you honestly say rose will still be around in 2-3 years time?
Everything said here should be read and understood by everyone. That being said the last point on how long rose will last is hard to pin down because somehow this community lives through the rampant abuse despite the neglect and blatant attacks on it at every turn. Which is why I care so much about this community.
Lets rewind to 2013 and compare how many players we had then compared to now, it was over double the amount, the excuse I get given is "There are other games people go to" That's not true. I know people who play games for years regardless of what new games come out, it's just the fact you guys waste time on stupid updates like this instead of improving the game play and just listening to a small percentage of the community instead of having a fair way of getting community feedback.
Again spot on. There is a reason the number of players have declined. People don't accept being human bots. Even in dungeon crawler monster army killers. ( think of a game D ) It started out horribly making everyone a human bot, then seasons came and botting started to die, then they went back to forcing players to be literal human bots to acquire the needed items to be the best or have fun and the game is overrun by bots again. A gaming company with vast resources can't dent botting with enforcement but did when they had switched the incentive hmmm... perhaps some points i've been making for the past while. To bad that game went back to shifting the incentive back towards botting and trying to enforce and they are overrun again. And that is a game that people have to pay to get new accounts on. Just imagine how enforcement will work here with free accounts.......
I am for some stupid reason sitting here wasting my time saying this because I know it won't even be read but hey, i've done it once.. or 50 times but why not do it again?
I read it, you are not alone! Some actually want real answers and your post was not over-looked! We can do this ROSE lets actually make this game better for us all. It starts by not wasting what little time and resources we already have.
Sigh I miss the good old days when this game was alive, too bad this game has a guaranteed end due to lack of interest in these new updates. When rose shuts down i'll be the first one to say "I told you so"
And what little they do have for investment is put into Item Mall and enforcement, both of which don't bring or keep new players. I won't be the first to say I told you so.... I'll just cry a little inside for the lost potential I saw go to waste.
While I am happy that Rose has decided to return to the previous terms for botting, and is seriously going to try and curb the practice, I feel that there is much more that could be done.
LOL you are so right here.
Enforcement does help deter some people from breaking the rules, but not all. If they would fix it so that leveling was more pleasurable, and not such a chore, then people would not feel the "need" to bot. There needs to be a second look taken at the quests in the game, and more added. Mob spawns should be more spread out, so that people can't just sit in one place and spam aoes.
I disagree with everyone that talks about spreading the spawns and the number of mobs. The key is elements that require human interaction to best navigate through. In that D game I mentioned earlier the amount of mobs in an area is insane but if sitting on a spot kills you it is harder for a bot to cope with. A human will quickly learn , hey if I keep standing on this blue puddle it kills me and if I don't it doesn't.
Perhaps make spawns a bit slower, so that a character could progress deeper into mob territory, without fear of the ones being killed respawning and getting him from behind. As for events, I would love it if they fixed it so that high level characters could not get event drops from low level mobs. It is frustrating trying to do an event, and having a high level character come steal all the mobs, then kill them.All so they could farm event drop items to make money.
I agree with keeping high players away from lower in the case of items for events. Birth island is showing us all right now how absurd it is.
If the staff would seriously take a look at the leveling experience, and work to improve it, make it so that events could be enjoyed by everyone, then I truly believe that more people will discontinue using bots, and get back to actually playing the game. You don't necessarily need to make it easy, but at least make it more enjoyable.
EXACTLY!!!! THIS IS MY POINT!
In the meantime, for those who do use bots, I am sorry, but I do have to agree with, if you don't want to play a game, why are you here "playing"?
For being so reasonable throughout your post you just had to fall to the dark side of emotion instead of argument at the end didn't you? Maybe some have been advocating for bots but the vast majority of players that have posted against enforcement have not talked about want to bot at all. That is the whole issue and why the enforcement lovers keep going back to the ad hominem boggles my mind. I don't want bots! We are talking here because we are tired of seeing the absolute wrong band-aids being used as opposed to actual solutions! We love this game and we want to enjoy it! Stop all of you from trying to push more out of this game first. Just don't. Then realize the arguments that are actually being stated, none of which are advocating bot use.
Quick point on those that want to see multi-client go.
I hear yea and I'm with you. However. Any even semi talented person on the computer looks at no multiclient being allow and just laughs. Multi-client literally can't be stopped by anything they do other than making the game pay to play and even then it doesn't stop it just makes it that much harder. I have and can multi-client any game. Those that go out of their way to try to not are usually the most lucrative to exploit then. The key again is changing incentive not enforcement. Have I brought up some themes on issues yet lol?
Also all of you that think ip banning will stop anyone. Go type in ip changer in google. Children do this. It is literally easier than running the rose client to change you ip.
After all of this I will say one thing for enforcement. It can only come second not first. If it is used first as an excuse that real change can happen second that is a complete non sequitor. Changing the game for the better doesn't have to wait on enforcement, but it can get people to even stop botting on their own. The key is changing the incentive of what to do in the game. If you are literally a human bot, then you will see botters. Enforcement will be a complete joke, especially in this free to play game. The only path is making it so that people don't even need to feel the need to bot to begin with.
I have never heard of someone botting minecraft. Why? Because the incentive to do so is non existent in its gameplay, despite things needing to be grinded.
Edited by Hellowarz, 06 December 2015 - 01:37 AM.
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