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January 21st Patch Notes - Classic


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#201 Undying

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 11:25 AM

 I'm not sure how you are wearing both a DR and an asprika at the same time, and one or the other makes that character quite vulnerable to different ways to kill them (or drop their sac, as it were).

 

 

Many of these questions would be answered if you read anything that I posted.

 

 

 

GTB frontliner with DR/Asprika/GR swaps being sac'd

 

For example

 

Also, while difficult to kill in a GvG, saying that character can't be killed by entire alliances is pretty disingenuous to say when 1) there are characters utilizing that sort of set-up in gvgs (between guilds much less entire alliances) all the time on this server who can and do die and 2) that character could prolly be killed by 1-3 other characters who know what they are doing, especially if their opponents get anywhere near the amount of gods/mvps you have given them.

 

Also there is woe that exists outside of full gvg meta, woe1 is currently more popular on classic than woe2 and these items would affect all of it, so just saying.. 

 

I am not being disingenuous. I am speaking from experience and we have stopped using certain combos due to us thinking it is overpowered.

 

 

Edit: I am sure that your points in the quote above should be answered. Here is a WoE 1 (not gvg). It is against people who know what they are doing. It is against people who have gods/mvps. It is a solo guild vs 2 alliances at the time. The scholar (not pally) is unkillable, not really just nobody could do it. If you'd prefer more examples or would like to make difference criteria to show that I am not disingenuous please let me know.

 

Again, I shall repeat myself. Please don't get hung up on the schematics of the items proposed as that is useless. Like I have said, think about the possibilities and the principle ideas instead of tunnel visioning so hard that you fail to comprehend what is being said, example "swaps". I'd love to discuss options with you, but for a discussion to occur that means reading/listening to the other person, not putting words in their mouth.

 

I would really like to talk with you, but it seems hard when you want to argue small moot points that A. your wrong in and B. don't matter at all since they are examples trying to express a principle idea. So I hope you don't take any of this personally, its just I am looking for constructive conversation not pointless schematics. 

 

Cheers, mate!

 

Sidenote: I see you post a lot of things like this...

 

 

Poor pvm is definitely a problem contributing to classics decline. There are ways to change and help all that though.

 

Please post your ideas if you are sure there are ways to change and help all! Seriously, lets talk about it. You seem to be the most educated person here with plenty of experience, I would love to see what you would like to suggest to help the server.


Edited by Undying, 28 January 2016 - 11:31 AM.

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#202 rojoky113

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 12:48 PM

EDIT: double post mobile is dumb.


Edited by rojoky113, 28 January 2016 - 01:50 PM.

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#203 rojoky113

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 12:49 PM

Please be sure you are not committing the same sin you accuse others of in terms of not comprehending someones point or honing in on one detail of their post instead of listening to what they are saying. Nowhere did I say defensive items should definitely not happen, repeatedly I said my point is that you need to be careful and wary of the gears you put in, how they are designed and how they will change the balance of the game (especially when stacked with other gears) in different situations against different opposition and not just as the defensive counterbalance to a meg.

I'm in class so I will have to watch and comment on your video later after I am back, but really the point you are defending and thinking is seemingly under attack is really directly supporting that point I am making. We ALREADY have defensive gear that are individually designed with weaknesses that can be stacked together to make characters very, very hard to kill. Imagine how much worse it would be if each of those gears weren't designed with a weakness? Or how bad it might get if you add more gear that can be stacked, especially if that weakness principle is disregarded as I pointed out the shield example you posted is as simply another example? What we don't need is to accidentally make it so scholars or breakers or whoever else can become too much more unreasonably hard to kill and immortal feeling than they already can. All I am saying is you NEED to be careful.

Also, I editted in another sentence to make clear my point about the DR and asprika because I realized it wasn't super clear what I meant. It's not that I was saying you were implying somehow wearing both at the same time, but that you can't and swapping is not perfect nor can it save you from being targeted by multiple attacks requiring different gears simultaneously.

And the reason I mention being disingenuous is that often you phrase your arguments whether intentionally or not to sound more absolute by phrasing. "Entire alliances can't kill" kinda sounds like you are implying this character is invincible and unkillable even with multiple guilds focusing them, which is very different from being hard to kill or not being killed very easily or often in the midst of a fight or gvg. I'm not saying any of this in a personal or attacking manner but with the intent of a discussion, the same as you said. So don't take it that way or misinterpret what I am saying.

And I have posted my ideas about pvm more than once, so have others. Many of them are similar in vein. I really was just feeling too lazy to type out an in depth response and counterpoint to that line of discussion from earlier but maybe at some point tonight I will.
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#204 Undying

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:00 PM

Under certain circumstances things can temporarily "unkillable". Everything can die in this game, very easily. However, gears and opposition can create temporary gaps in the ability to kill.

 

The thing with a 40% shield that reduces damage from all races by 40% is this... First of all, it would be a god item so not everyone would have them. If WoE TE copied god item ideas from Renewal and I had some input on it... It would look like a WoE 2 Byrn as far as requirements, however it would require 5 pieces of each god part (the way it should have been done for asprikas/bryns on this server but our advice wasn't taken). There would be a direct drawback to this item. You wouldn't be able to wear a GTB with it. Seeing as this would be a "top tier" item and GTB is a "top tier" item, it is to assume that the individual could use both. GTB for a good chance at staying sac'd or risk the loss of sac for better reduction? 

 

I am not taking things personally. It was just an idea for an item. I look at the failure to create new "useful" god items on Renewal and I want to avoid that. I rather look at creating something sought after. Maybe 35% race reduction and +5% mhp? In non woe situations an Alice will be better. I think what I was trying to say is there is tons of possibilities.

 

As for creating and using "extreme" defensive and offensive builds. There is so much that Ragnarok offers. Some people enjoy making setups to 1hko. I enjoy testing the durability of different combos of classes, gears, and teamwork. For example, if you watch the video the biggest drawback that we have is I freeze. The scholar had every possible defensive gear, however Sac still breaks. Plus a scholar and a pally are the two most defensive classes, put them together and its a solid rock. Easiest way would be to freeze the pally, remove sac, and kill the scholar. To counteract that, simple communication lead the scholar to dispel the pally if sac was down and the pally was frozen. That is what I enjoy in Ragnarok. I like durability and testing that. Another example of fun durrable things that I enjoyed. With WC vs SNL I ran a LK with a frontline soul linker kaupe spamming the LK along with sac spam. It allowed the "stacked" LK to live since the only thing that could kill it at the time was sinx. It worked amazingly and spearheaded the rush into a 50+ person guild at the time. The list goes on. So I suppose it is natural for me to look at adding more defensive stuff.

 

On the flip side... Classic has gears that never should have been in Classic that drastically increase damage. Skull cap, VoH, ect. So it seems natural that more defensive gears are offered.


Edited by Undying, 28 January 2016 - 01:04 PM.

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#205 rojoky113

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:12 PM

Classic also has 10% greater woe reductions compared to that baseline of actual pre-renewal, effectively lowering damage output by a full 1/6 which is not insignificant, especially if you want to call the increased damage from something like voh drastic (voh + mental potion add less damage than is removed by the woe reductions increasing from 40% to 50%).

 

And a very large part of the point I was making is that GTB is powerful, but it has a positive effect and also a drawback in itself as a piece of equipment. Magic immunity, but not buffable, double sp consumption, and roughly 50% more damage than you would have taken from anything else that does hit you. But just a glance at the gear examples you put and my mind immediately jumped to the tanky scholars and LKs who already run 54% demi getting bumped up to 66% which is pretty huge when they can already be hard to kill, with no drawback unlike something like GTB (not being able to wear a different shield is not actually a drawback in the context I am talking about). GTB has an advantage and a disadvantage, those gears add a very large reduction directly onto the "standard" defensive numbers that the entire game is balanced around. That's what put up a flag for me and made me compelled to point it out, and the need to be careful what you do when going in this direction.


Edited by rojoky113, 28 January 2016 - 01:44 PM.

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#206 Xellie

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:20 PM

stop talking y'all are making noise and Oda will focus on renewal instead


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#207 rojoky113

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:28 PM

I feel like I just end up repeating myself a lot in these discussions anyway, because people often respond with something I have already addressed or responded to before. I should literally just start quoting my previous posts when that happens honestly.

 

But unfortunately in a way you are right, we need to have these discussions and what Oda needs to do is not tell us to shut up or get mad at us because we are going back and forth about something, but to listen and try to at least give us some token responses if he isn't going to do more in terms of guiding the discussion and asking questions so the staff can actually understand as much as they can about the game and the situation. I just hope things can change in that direction, and we don't have more people just give up and leave as so many have here.


Edited by rojoky113, 28 January 2016 - 01:33 PM.

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#208 Xellie

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:37 PM

I think this is a good discussion and deserves it's own location. Hold that thought.

 

(The god item discussion, not Oda)


Edited by Xellie, 28 January 2016 - 01:37 PM.

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#209 Undying

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:48 PM

You just want a Kaho Horn god helm. Letzbrealz


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#210 Xellie

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:49 PM

I think new gear and new goals is a vital part of Classic's development if it's to continue.


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#211 Undying

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:52 PM

Agreed. I am still waiting for earth and wind twinblades (earth would have max wep attack of 100 though).


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#212 rojoky113

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:53 PM

Maybe if we didn't keep putting all our new gears in through lucky boxes, or at the very least put them in the game as achievable in some manner...

 

Kinda in the same vein as the elemental armors and medals in lucky boxes discussion really. Remember when Xellie had the idea of adding in different quests to create different slotted mids using a lucky box item as a generic catalyst (like slot ads) as opposed to just putting the mids in boxes, or something like that? You know, get people playing the game, stimulate the economy some, lets people choose their own mids, etc. Can even make the ones with minor benefits like BFG that much harder to quest for and create.

 

Even then new gears still need to be cautiously considered in order to avoid unbalancing things or too much power creep, look at how much stuff gets (rightly) shot down in the lucky boxes for those reasons, or even KVM and why it's been turned down so far.


Edited by rojoky113, 28 January 2016 - 02:05 PM.

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#213 Undying

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 02:01 PM

I would very much like to be apart of a new "update" for Classic. Design new pvm maps with new boses and new gears to drop. Could even pull from some KVM gears, but toned down a bit.


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#214 rojoky113

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 02:18 PM

I'm really a fan of the god items being more "all-in-one" kind of deals like Undyings original helmet idea rather than just pushing reductions higher which might be a questionable move. So many evil or stupid ideas. Like a shield with 30% reduction from all races, 30% status resist like flame skull card, and plat shield effect /gg


Edited by rojoky113, 28 January 2016 - 02:19 PM.

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#215 Xellie

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 02:32 PM

here go

 

https://forums.warpp...-about-classic/


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#216 AmericanPie

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 03:35 PM

Oda/camp, our pally got ban. I've pm u the ticket.
Pls check, I personally know him, so rmt/ap/hack/rmt is out of the question.

And... He just vip-ed his account. Not good.
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#217 Xandyzor

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 04:20 AM

In Maintance of tomorrow:

 

 - Keep LHZ Spotlight please.

 - Update Grandman with this January Box.

 

@Edit:

 

Change the server schedule. This three minutes ahead .


Edited by Xandyzor, 03 February 2016 - 04:23 AM.

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#218 AmericanPie

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 02:33 PM

Update spotlight warper


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