9 replies to this topic

[Vansir]

Hey, to begin whole thing I feel like I must tell my story so you can fully understand me. If u wanna skip the story go to the tl;dr below.

 

I play dragon saga on this server for like less than 2 months (created account like 3 years ago or something but haven't played). Was playing gpotato dragonica and dragon saga sea before, but always was lowbob and haven't even go Elga. So this time i decided to make ultimate-overpovered-maxedout-azzkickin characer, that will be able to do everything and help everyone with any problem. That includes solo elga etc. I read lot of stuff on this forum, saved tons of links, wrote some posts, googled everything I could, asked million questions (still in progres lol), and decided to make Invoker.

 

Invoker seemed to be a perfect choice. He allows you to solo game from end till begginning, help urself and others cuz of heals, resurection and curse remove. Also from what ppl said it have 2nd best single or double target dps in game, right after summoner. So I made my Invoker and was really happy about him. Game was so enjoyable that i have hit lvl 81 in like 45days without real no-lifing (just some spam at weekends cuz of exp boost). Anyway during that time i found out that without high-end gear I am not really able to farm missions solo. It was a bit problematic but got my +20 zauh and it solved the problem - clear speed was still not best but you cant have everything, right?

 

After i hit lvl 81 i was a bit confused what to do. I needed tons of gold to get my pos set and pos wep, and farming it on mission seemed bad idea. We tried to go elga with our guild but we kinda failed. I was feeling bad. Then a friendly player took me elga with his friends and they teached me a lot bout it. Some of them help me understand things till now when i spam them with questions. Thanks a lot for that! After this i also found out that galaxia can provide you lot of gold if u farm it. Also had lot of ISS and RISS that i bought during xmas sale and decided to sell as many of them as it will require from me to get full pos stuff since market prices were good. It took all of them cuz i had to craft pos wep twice and wings 4 times but I ended up with that gear. Also could make wep +20 legend and chest +20 arti so i had nice dmg and over 10k def and mdef. Mine stats were and are right now like this:

 

Defensive

10k+ def

10k+ mdef

25k hp

other ress from pos set

 

Offensive

dmg - dont rly remember dmg but have pos wep +20legend 3 stat that aram belt legend +20 some not best jewerly but with 400+ attack each so i think its about 70-80% of what I will have with best possible items since only rings and neck will change

320att speed (i know its too much and i will get it lower in trade for other stats)

30% crit chance - i guess it caps at 40%

260% crit dmg - not even half of what i can get but im working on it

 

so with maxed out dmg i will deal like 142% of current dmg dmg (1:0,7=1,42) -1 stands for 100% and its target dmg while 0,7 stands for 70% and its current dmg

with maxed crit rate and crit dmg my normal dmg will be 60% instead of 70% (cuz 10% goes into critical dmg) so it will be like (0,6:0,7=0,85) 85%*142% what gives 120% of current normal dmg

with maxed crit rate and crit dmg my critical damage will be 40% instead of 30% so it will be like (0,4:0,3) 133%*142% and that gives 189% of current critical damage. Then we have to include new critical damage which is 600% not 260% and that makes it like this (6:2,6=2,31) 231% of current crit damage. So multiply 189% by 231% gives 437% (!!!) of current critical dmg.

Because I compare my possible dmg to the current dmg I must use current rates so 70% normal damage and 30% critical damage. Those % calculated above include those changes that I will make later so It will be correct (40% is 133% of 30% and i multipled whole crit dmg by it). So mine damage at the end will be:

(0,7*1,2)+(0,3*4,37)=0,84+1,31=2,15 that mean I will deal 215% more damage. Well thats about 2x more dmg. Ofc these values may vary a bit since I'm not sure that right now i got exacly 70% dmg that i can possibly have. Also if there are any mistakes in my calculations let me know.

 

So I decided to go solo elga to see what can I do there. I cleared it 2 minutes before time over (so i guess only elga took me 43min right?) and died once during whole run but it was tottaly my fault cuz i was tired of it and happened at 3rd stage while i run behind her when she started shouting. Also havent open any treasure box so 0 farm. Still was kinda happy about this cuz that meaned with maxed out stuff I can kill elga in 20minutes.

 

tl;dr

But then I joined party of a maxed out summoner. He cleared Elga in like no time: 1st phase less than 2min 2nd same 3rd same. I was like wth. No1 was really helping him. Went again with him and asked if we can open boxes. He was really nice and cool so said yes and we farmed elga almost 30 min. During that i got 7 dragon nails Was happy as never before. But then the feeling that I am totally weak camed.

 

So I was maxing out everything, calculating, spending over 200 hours and mine char will be like 20% of his dps at the end? So i realised that the most important thing there was the real attack speed. He attacked rly rly fast and I could see its actually like 300% attack speed while mine was like 100-200% depending on moment. I've read about it a lot and post some questions on forum. Lot of u guys helped me undestand this. But so far I was pretty sure that hitting this x button like mad man is pretty much enough for me. Well now I know it's not. And with some1 else in party it sux even more. It happens because of fps drop and because of human ability to spam that x button. Lets focus on PC.

 

I'm not sure what to do to make dragon saga run better. I'm using 5 years old pc  but while i bought it, it was top piece of gaming equipment. Right now i can play newer games than Dragon Saga on ultra details like Crysis 2. Would even run Fallout 4 on medium/high details if mine GPU would support directx 11. Was googling for some solutions, checking diffrent graphic settings but those don't help much in attack speed matter. Also its really weird. Cuz generally I dont have any fps drop. But i login into POW, everything looks fine but mine attack speed is like 150%. Then i go missions, everything looks same smooth but can spam the heck out of my x and reach 300% on boss. During that I'm still able to spam casting of skills that have casting time with about 300% speed  while im in town (like spark rock - spam spell and it makes me shine and sound proves it happens way faster than my auto attacks). It feels like there is something totally wrong with that auto attacks mechanics for invoker...

 

Let's look now on making x spam itself. It's not a secret that there are way to send dragon saga information that we are spamming x button even if we are not. It can be done using some software (and it's illegal i believe) or by using keyboard that have it own memory allowing us to create macros (idk if it's illegal but no1 can ban us for this for sure since keyboard send things to the computer, same way if we would do those things by our own fingers - i think that Precrush wrote about it in his topic on this forum, couldnt find it now tho).

 

So basically right now, to improve my Invoker I have to buy new PC (for a 5 years old game with really basic graphic) and mechanical keyboard with memory included. It makes me kinda disappointed and cheated. Knew a bit bout it but still was hoping it's only a bit improve not something that will make me deal 2-3x more damage. I know many ppl hate invokers and summoners cuz they are OP in pve but don't u think that making class that works this way at the end Is not cool? Is there no way to fix how those autoattacks works (if its possible to spam spell with every click then lack of this possiblity in same conditions and enough att speed for attacks seems like bug) or to make holding x use all ur attack speed normally? Ppl say that it would be buff but c'mon - making ppl destroy their keyboards during autoattacking is not way to nerf the class lol.

 

If any1 have any solution for me about increasing that attack speed, like better graphical settings (i got lastest drivers and tried a lot of gpu programs that change the graphic setup) or some legal tricks please lemme know. And if someone from Dragon Saga Staff members read this, please think about doing something with that problem

 

Also using this post would like to thank all the ppl that helped me so far here in forum and in game. If not you this game would be much harder, much less fun and I would have to spend way more time doing things that were pointless. Would like to say nicknames but there are a lot of you and also I am not sure if everyone would like to be mentioned right here. What can I say, Dragon Saga have great community

Edited by Vansir, 21 January 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[Agitodesu]

That's some serious stacking business. I can also assume that summoner was using rings that cost about 400+$ if you decided to make one.

 

But anyway the there are a lot of conflicting views on classes who can solo the only dungeon in the game. Everything else is quite easy and everyone can agree on it unless you walking into some places with no gear.

 

Stormhaven and I both agreed on making every class being able to kill elga with relative ease and/or farm elga materials by yourself If you stack well enough as an alternative.

 

Some players have a deep hatred for summoners to be able to solo the dungeon with ease. Claiming that it should be a dungeon that requires more than 1 person to clear thus making it almost near impossible to solo in the first place.

 

My argument is that people that have spent over 800$ worth in gear whether using money or farming gold the collective total of the gear is more or less in that price range, will not be able to clear the dungeon at ease and will have a tough time with it. If you do nerf classes so that no one can solo it how would new players that enter the dungeon fair against it if a completely stacked character can't even contest it? Would you need a collective group of stacked players to help new players?

 

Reworking the pve damage for summoners should come later, but maybe reworking the monsters/boxes/bosses HP and have elements have more of an impact in pve may be fitting, rather than completely reworking all classes.

 

As of now, both pve and pvp remains unbalanced at high tiers, because they scale differently, some spike/some flatten. While in lower levels without such gear everything does a decent amount of damage and no one complains as much(Except the use of elements).

Edited by Agitodesu, 21 January 2016 - 08:57 AM.

[Homurasan]

As for this comp issue... well. Lowering graphical options may be a solution, such as V-sync, quality of effects and so on. I can do about anything without lag on lowest resolution and with everything disabled, and even though it is less enjoyable like this, it is the most efficient way as far as I know.

 

Also third-party softwares aren't illegal, they are forbidden to use on DS.

[Precrush]

You max and invoker out you can do really well at elga, just not as good as a similarly geared summoner, which is stupid and so on but hey, you have it better then most others. And ye if you wanna x-spam fast and avoid serious wrist injuries get a keyboard/mouse with macro capabilities.

 

 

@Agitodesu 

 

I think elga is a bad example for this, because after thinking about it for a while I do agree, one should be able to solo the end game boss with the best possible gear. However, soloing elga is way too easy for some classes, the end game boss should by no means be a cakewalk for even the strongest single character on the server. Reaching a state where you can solo elga is not that big of an achievement on a few classes right now. Further more soloing the end game boss should not be the most efficient way to do it, at least not  by a lot or in all aspects. That's exactly the case with elga though. Much of this comes down to boss design, something that would be a waste to start changing with elga now as it would take a lot of work. The summoners only being able to farm elga misc my only issue with it as it is quite unfair, but otherwise the loot from elga is quite underwhelming with these bloody prices, so soloing or even doing it is not that desirable or popular.

 

When it comes to damage the problem with balancing it now is that given benefits can't be taken back with out making people very unhappy. That's just a basic principle of humans and human society in general. So suddenly reducing summoners damage would be problematic. The other option is to boost everyone else's damage to the same level, but that too is problematic because summoners deal way too much damage. If you boost the damage of other classes to the same level the pve aspect of this game would suffer in general, and pvp too although that's not important here. And then if you make pve environment harder to counter balance this you end up in square one where only summoners got a nerf and are unhappy. My solution would be a combination of these, nerf summoners, buff other classes, maybe to about the point clerics are at now.

 

Best way to make changes in mmos and not piss everyone off is just making sure you get them right the next time you do something, or in this case the first time. Just kind of figure out a way to have new things that fix the old troubles so that the old troubles are kind of still there but not really. For example release new weapons in which these damage changes are applied, so that seemingly everyone gets a buff.

 

[Agitodesu]

As I said, we could potentially nerf the dungeon and the health of the monsters/boxes/bosses. Then nerf the summoner damage wise to an agreeable extent shortly after. The need to rework in whatever fashion the 9 other classes soley for elga is and will be unnecessary.

 

With no doubt currently walking in there with a party of 8 people with +4 gear and weapon won't get you that far. Nor would farming even be an effective option. Comparing heavily stacked players to relatively non-stacked players will be an extreme challenge.

 

Although class specific weapons might be a nice option if it is possible to split the difference between pve and pvp damage. Because me having over 100,000 Patk on an overlord is no where near the dps of a summoner with 30k Matk. Possibly if they wanted, they could make an overlord weapon that let's an overlord get around 800,000 Patk they might be on par with summoners.(To be honest, multiplying my damage dealt by 8 times is still not enough) I used overlords as an example because they have the highest amount of Patk in the game, but the sustained dps is bad, and the "Burst damage" is also really bad.

Edited by Agitodesu, 21 January 2016 - 11:06 AM.

[StormHaven]

As I said, we could potentially nerf the dungeon and the health of the monsters/boxes/bosses. Then nerf the summoner damage wise to an agreeable extent shortly after. The need to rework in whatever fashion the 9 other classes soley for elga is and will be unnecessary.

 

With no doubt currently walking in there with a party of 8 people with +4 gear and weapon won't get you that far. Nor would farming even be an effective option. Comparing heavily stacked players to relatively non-stacked players will be an extreme challenge.

 

Although class specific weapons might be a nice option if it is possible to split the difference between pve and pvp damage. Because me having over 100,000 Patk on an overlord is no where near the dps of a summoner with 30k Matk. Possibly if they wanted, they could make an overlord weapon that let's an overlord get around 800,000 Patk they might be on par with summoners.(To be honest, multiplying my damage dealt by 8 times is still not enough) I used overlords as an example because they have the highest amount of Patk in the game, but the sustained dps is bad, and the "Burst damage" is also really bad.

 

Tbh, comparing any class to Summoners in elga is stupid. They(summoners) were able to solo old pre nerfed elga/match the DPS+Groggy that Ninjas+TR could do.

 

Right now about any classes can duo- 4man elga with any class combination if the players are stacked enough. If we kept lowering the hp of the mobs/boxes/elga it would get to the point that Elga would be the same as Galaxy or Element dungeons and absolutely a complete joke for what's supposed to be the Big Bad Boss of DS.

Personally like you said I do believe any class should be able to solo elga if and ONLY if they've maxed their character or come extremely close to it.

[Agitodesu]

Tbh, comparing any class to Summoners in elga is stupid. They(summoners) were able to solo old pre nerfed elga/match the DPS+Groggy that Ninjas+TR could do.

 

Right now about any classes can duo- 4man elga with any class combination if the players are stacked enough. If we kept lowering the hp of the mobs/boxes/elga it would get to the point that Elga would be the same as Galaxy or Element dungeons and absolutely a complete joke for what's supposed to be the Big Bad Boss of DS.

Personally like you said I do believe any class should be able to solo elga if and ONLY if they've maxed their character or come extremely close to it.

 

That's why I specifically said nerf the mobs+summoner overall dps. Bolstering the dps of 9 other classes seem to collide with the make everyone op logic. Almost all classes have trouble killing/farming elga effectively at all (not comparing with summoners) why not nerf summoners overall dps, and reduce the hp of the mobs to a certain extent where it isn't a joke yet farmable without a huge hassle if stacked correctly for all classes.

 

I am pretty sure you do not need 400$ rings to "solo" galaxia nor do you need to +20 legend every piece of armor to take a few hits.

Edited by Agitodesu, 21 January 2016 - 11:38 AM.

[Precrush]

Nerfing elga again would make it fairer and push this issue back, but it wouldn't solve it and I think it would be a shame to see the only "hard" boss in the game be made not even that.

 

And when I say soloing shouldn't be the most effective option I don't mean a team of +4's should be better, I mean a team of stacked players should at least be better. Or even semi-stacked.

[Vansir]

That's some serious stacking business. I can also assume that summoner was using rings that cost about 400+$ if you decided to make one.

 

But anyway the there are a lot of conflicting views on classes who can solo the only dungeon in the game. Everything else is quite easy and everyone can agree on it unless you walking into some places with no gear.

 

Stormhaven and I both agreed on making every class being able to kill elga with relative ease and/or farm elga materials by yourself If you stack well enough as an alternative.

 

Some players have a deep hatred for summoners to be able to solo the dungeon with ease. Claiming that it should be a dungeon that requires more than 1 person to clear thus making it almost near impossible to solo in the first place.

 

My argument is that people that have spent over 800$ worth in gear whether using money or farming gold the collective total of the gear is more or less in that price range, will not be able to clear the dungeon at ease and will have a tough time with it. If you do nerf classes so that no one can solo it how would new players that enter the dungeon fair against it if a completely stacked character can't even contest it? Would you need a collective group of stacked players to help new players?

 

Reworking the pve damage for summoners should come later, but maybe reworking the monsters/boxes/bosses HP and have elements have more of an impact in pve may be fitting, rather than completely reworking all classes.

 

As of now, both pve and pvp remains unbalanced at high tiers, because they scale differently, some spike/some flatten. While in lower levels without such gear everything does a decent amount of damage and no one complains as much(Except the use of elements).

 

Thanks for response. To begin with those rings, I actually included those in my calculations. Ofc I know not every class is able to solo elga. But my problem is not about who can and who cannot do it. I am just a bit angry that end game of character that i put so much time/effort/$ in is based on my gaming equipment and it can increase my dps like 2-3 times. I understand everything else you wrote and I know u are right. I don't want to agree with any opinion bout buffing/nerfing any class/dungeon just because I don't have any real knowledge/experience in this matter. Just would like to max out the class i choosed the proper way. Why should I spend time or $ getting these 400$ worth rings when i can buy keyboard for 100$ and get even better effect. I know It's a bit crying about stuff that are here for a long time but still it's hard for me to accept when I already hit that wall. I guess I'll have to get over it.

As for this comp issue... well. Lowering graphical options may be a solution, such as V-sync, quality of effects and so on. I can do about anything without lag on lowest resolution and with everything disabled, and even though it is less enjoyable like this, it is the most efficient way as far as I know.

 

Also third-party softwares aren't illegal, they are forbidden to use on DS.

Thank you for those ideas. I have already tried some of these but i think its worth to give it a try and do it again. Btw do u know maybe whats better for performance? Windowed mode or Full screen?

 

You max and invoker out you can do really well at elga, just not as good as a similarly geared summoner, which is stupid and so on but hey, you have it better then most others. And ye if you wanna x-spam fast and avoid serious wrist injuries get a keyboard/mouse with macro capabilities.

Thx for answer. I know I can do well at elga and I know that summoner will always deal like even 50% more dmg than me. But for now from my calculations even with maxed out gear I'll deal like 15-20% of that maxed out summoner i met. Thats why i got so mad. Only solution to make it up to 50% that i can imagine is this new pc and mechanical keyboard i think. And I would really appreciate if I could actually do it inside game not outside. Thats why I was wondering for any possible solutions.

 

As I said, we could potentially nerf the dungeon and the health of the monsters/boxes/bosses. Then nerf the summoner damage wise to an agreeable extent shortly after. The need to rework in whatever fashion the 9 other classes soley for elga is and will be unnecessary.

 

With no doubt currently walking in there with a party of 8 people with +4 gear and weapon won't get you that far. Nor would farming even be an effective option. Comparing heavily stacked players to relatively non-stacked players will be an extreme challenge.

 

Although class specific weapons might be a nice option if it is possible to split the difference between pve and pvp damage. Because me having over 100,000 Patk on an overlord is no where near the dps of a summoner with 30k Matk. Possibly if they wanted, they could make an overlord weapon that let's an overlord get around 800,000 Patk they might be on par with summoners.(To be honest, multiplying my damage dealt by 8 times is still not enough) I used overlords as an example because they have the highest amount of Patk in the game, but the sustained dps is bad, and the "Burst damage" is also really bad.

For me I don't have any problem with anyone's dmg or with any dungeon. I guess that the whole balance thing Is important for ppl who play longer. I also know it's hard to do. But think that things like invoker autoattacks are totally messed up and should be done first since it makes big diffrence between maxed out invokers and maxed out invokers if u know what i mean. Idk if summoners x attacks works the same (x spam) but actually If they do and you will nerf summoners, the guys that use best equipment like mentioned before will deal more balanced dmg but then ppl that were just smashing their x on bad pc will get boot to the head. That wouldn't be cool. That diffrence between same classes should be fixed first before we talk about nerfing class. If you want to balance whole game there should be balance between players of same class first. Btw I don't think i meet it in any game before lol.

[Homurasan]

I don't think windowed or fullscreen mode has any impact, but the lowest resolution possible, although it reduces your view of the battlefield, helps greatly. Not as much as lowering effect quality, but I have no problem at all when playing on lowest graphical settings with the smallest resolution (1.024 x 768 px). I alwyas keep antialiasing on though, so that it doesn't look too bad.

 

Of course it's a bit extreme. You might want to completely clean up your PC using Windows' defragmenter tool (if you want to do it thoroughly : defragment, then reboot your computer ; repeat three times or so. Make sure as less applications as possible are running when defragmenting, too). And avoid any kind of unnecessary visual effect such as auras, glowing PoS wings etc. since it seems to be a problem. Well, to me, it is.