90 replies to this topic

[Xplay4eva]

I think playing too much WOE has driven some of you guys a little crazy. Surely it is not fair to blame the current team for oversights and problems that were originally built into Classic? I do commend the effort for everyone trying to bring issues to light though, it is nice to see people willing to fight for their game.

 

It might be more efficient if each person with a concern listed the one thing that they would like to see change and then for some manner of larger list to be created from that.

Speaking for myself personally, I have the most interest in what a Battlegrounds/ PVP would look like with all consumables being off limits. (that useless poison status effect suddenly becomes less useless without green potions around) except maybe for class specific catalysts.

Edited by Xplay4eva, 07 February 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[Xellie]

I feel like the actual WoE problem is lost on the staff, they talk about castle reductions but not acknowledge or solve the real problem.

[Ramses]

what about starting by halving the drop rate on berries/seeds? it'll actually be a problem for everybody but the ygg saturation is just too much and, on top of that, the ones who benefit the most are the ones that are getting 7-8 woe 2 castles per week out of idle econs.

[rojoky113]

Reduce castles and/or disable alliances and/or modify investing npcs to only allow a certain total number of investmemt per guild per week in each of woe1 and woe2.

Edited by rojoky113, 06 February 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[Themes]

It might be more efficient if each person with a concern listed the one thing that they would like to see change and then for some manner of larger list to be created from that.

Speaking for myself personally, I have the most interest in what a Battlegrounds/ PVP would look like with all consumables being off limits. (that useless poison status effect suddenly becomes less useless without green potions around) except maybe for class specific catalysts.

 

The problem with everyone listing stuff off is, the GMs can only really listen to one person at a time. Right now the community is incredibly quick to point fingers any time any imagined favouritism is shown and it just quickly spirals out of control.

 

I'm right there with you on the BG/PvP thing and feel that with some changes we could get that aspect of the server much more active. Siege is only 4 hours a week, why cant we give the people who want more, more?

 

One of the limiting factors with creating PvP/BG content with new rules is that the rules for each particular map is governed by things called maptypes, there's probably around 20-25 of them and each map is given a specific ruleset. This controls things like what skills can be used, what consumables can be used and what gear is usable. You may think 20 is a lot, but when you consider there's one for each of the following: Towns, Inside (buildings), Fields, Dungeons, Quest maps, Siege (x2), Guild Dungeons, BGs, PvP, Instances (one each for ET/Nid/Orc Memorial and SS). It sort of adds up quickly. We cannot just add new ones and have to use existing ones. I believe the current no consumable PvP maptype was taken from the GvG room ruleset. Due to the disabled content there are probably a couple of spares we can use, but it would require some time spent doing the research, making sure that they're not being used and then creating the new rules from scratch (which would require help from the community because we all know how much stuff got missed from the no god/mvp event siege).

 

Pre-trans pvp could be fun and any changes to BGs that encourage people to actually fight would be great. No consumable rulesets would be nice in certain things assuming we could get it set up correctly, but more for PvP than BGs I think. 

[rojoky113]

As silly as it might seem in addition to the woe whites/blues, I think the addition of BG only free consumables that we talked about before would honestly help a lot with getting people willing to try harder, even if its just whites/blues/greens but there could be some workarounds (like an item that gives the same effect as EDP when used, instead of poison bottles). Right now fighting takes up time and supplies, and it's easier to be lazy. BGs do have a cooldown, but if new BGs were designed with a set time that matches take (so not trying isn't any faster than trying) and free supplies to use, it'd be a lot more encouraging.

 

I also made the suggestions before about having it run at certain times to focus attendance and be designed more competitively (choosing teams, really high win/low lose reward, etc.). I really think such a thing could be the halfway point between woe and casual afk farmfest BGs that we really need to spice up the server during the week, if it was designed well.

Edited by rojoky113, 06 February 2016 - 08:50 PM.

[Naman18Tandon]

What's the new box?

[Xellie]

The problem with everyone listing stuff off is, the GMs can only really listen to one person at a time. Right now the community is incredibly quick to point fingers any time any imagined favouritism is shown and it just quickly spirals out of control.

 

I'm laughing because the moment we started actually speaking up about it like "the other side" did, it suddenly became a huge issue. Whereas I complained about it for years only being aimed at me and nobody cared :V

 

There's a couple of individuals who say the most incredibly toxic things regarding favoritism and I really want to believe its not true. These people have huge influence and I really want Oda to mediate with them, because this is what is killing the server second to staff apathy.
 

[Pean]

Future: 
Would the community be interested in a system where a bounty is paid in prize medals (EXP Disabled) for hunting WoE supplies which are then available for sale to other players through the NPCs?

GSBs are kinda limited to people who can lvl biolaps or enter GD. except a very few places like sealed shrine and endless tower you would deny access to GSBs to new player, people who dont own chars / equip to get them, or people who play by their own. 

 

Honestly the EXP of PM is really low, i wouldnt worry if its enabled. also, i dont belive people would exchange medals fo get a very few exp, in case they could save them up for valuable lvl4 weapons or armors!?

 

Suggestion: for any upcoming boxes, maybe you can consider about weapon repair scroll? enables the use of "Repair Weapon" Skill anywhere. i think its a handy item for some stuff like WoE, ET, Bio3 ect. we had those on fRo and i kinda miss them. Item ID# 14521
 

4. Trying to get Dally Quen working on the server or finding a similar method for the distribution of prize medals so that players can have a reliable in game method of obtaining elemental armors.
Dally Quen just would not work on the classic server. I can't figure out why. I suspect that bit of code is just missing as the connections are there. The strange thing is the server has the right function calls, they just don't do anything. That is why we have started to explore alternative methods of getting prize medal items in game such as: https://forums.warpp...d-woe-supplies/

1. Alde Baran Turbo Track?
2. Izlude Arena?
3. Adding Ash Vacuum, which have daily quest (Fishing, Mining, Tatacho owner) and put it as extra reward? in case you dont want any Manuk/Splendide maps, remove the warps and add a few Ore NPCs to Ash Vacuum.
4. Add a equipment like Accessoiry which enable to the of "Teakwon Mission" ( not limited to TK cls ) and add Price Medals as Daily quest?
5. maybe one of the easiest solution: add a simple quest where a player recive the lower headgear ( i forgot the name ) dropping "Blank Cards", and add PM to the rewards.
6. ADD PM to the kafra headquarter in Alde Baran, in exchange for Lotterie Points -> have to be balanced a lot! most players will have million of lotterie points.

Edited by Pean, 07 February 2016 - 09:55 PM.

[Themes]

As silly as it might seem in addition to the woe whites/blues, I think the addition of BG only free consumables that we talked about before would honestly help a lot with getting people willing to try harder, even if its just whites/blues/greens but there could be some workarounds (like an item that gives the same effect as EDP when used, instead of poison bottles). Right now fighting takes up time and supplies, and it's easier to be lazy. BGs do have a cooldown, but if new BGs were designed with a set time that matches take (so not trying isn't any faster than trying) and free supplies to use, it'd be a lot more encouraging.

 

I also made the suggestions before about having it run at certain times to focus attendance and be designed more competitively (choosing teams, really high win/low lose reward, etc.). I really think such a thing could be the halfway point between woe and casual afk farmfest BGs that we really need to spice up the server during the week, if it was designed well.

 

I think for BGs players should be able to get supplies to use, that's what makes it fun and encourages people to fight. Having a consumable that only works in BGs that applies an effect of something like EDP is interesting. I never really followed up on trying to find out if you can give stackable items rental/timed status but it'd be a good way to do it for HP/SP items as you can just keep giving them to people at the healer as they respawn. The hardest thing to solve is probably going to be bombs, it's not possible to make bomb consume a different set of items.

 

In an ideal world as a long term project we'd see a new BG/PvP area developed in a similar sort of idea to Asgard. Xellie and I talked about it for a while, but a place where people can meet and have all the relevant facilities available in a small place. Having things like BG/PvP NPCs, shouters that give proper information (you could even make them spam locally on the map more often), repair, inn etc.

 

The timed BGs is so-so. It's hard because people have such wildly differing timezones that you'd have to open it up multiple times a day to cover all the groups. I think instead of making a battleground only available during a certain time I'd rather see a happy hour/bonus badge during those times that encourages people to play during those hours and compete for them. But it all depends on how active they are, if they're used for a couple of weeks then instead it turns to people just farming during those hours like they do now then I'm not really sure.

 

The battleground system is somewhat flexible and it could be entirely possible to see a handful of different game modes designed and implemented. However the largest hurdle we have is the queue system. Right now it's not very random and it's really hard to write something that would properly randomise the teams. There's some merit in encouraging people to party up and having the BG read party names and throw a certain number of people together, but while fun for the people, it can be really miserable to play against. It's something that should really be discussed, but it's a hard one because I dont think we really know the limits of what we can do with it and most of the community doesnt understand or care.

[AmericanPie]

Having team-plan BG is similar to flavius. To avoid farming, can we like have instant death for those who idle at respawn point for like 10 secs? And once they in the healing room, create an NPC to return to battleground instead of based on timer which majoritily cause disconnection even to non-afk player.

Make those who afk in healing room to not receive any medals.

By this way, once game is done we don't need to spam the entrance NPC to enter due to cooldown being too long

Edited by AmericanPie, 08 February 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[Xellie]

So last night someone asked me to shout for BG because the bg shouter doesnt work that well right?

 

So I did

then he went in to bg, saw it was full of bots, then when I shouted the bots logged out.

We need better bot control on BG. This is very very silly.

 

Also global GSB hunting map please.

PVP/BG asgard type area, yes.

 

Happy hour can be replicated by scheduling or activating an alternative reward npc for that duration. If scheduling doesn't work event runners can do it. I'm sure that people like myself, themes and undying would be happy to talk to an npc a couple times a week to activate a happy hour reward npc. (if it's done in a similar fashion to the champ arena I don't see a problem)

 

I think party followed by randomization is necessary. I do know it may be miserable for some people, but it's less miserable than being the support class on a different team full of bots whilst your guildmates deny you medals. If someone is being extra douchey I can see the community grouping up against them and making new friends. It has plus sides.

[rojoky113]

Acid bomb may end up out in the cold with free bg supplies idk, it's hard not knowing the limits of item scripts but would it be possible to make a "bomb dispenser" lower headgear that is only enabled in BGs, that is scripted to generate bomb items in the players inventory whenever acid bomb is successfully used and hits (as in is used and uses up bombs so it's not exploitable for infinite bombs). That's the only idea I can think of atm.

As for timed BGs it sort of depends what you are going for in design, some of these suggestions are sort of interdependent in terms of functioning well, since for example trying to encourage it being competitive via team choosing and the win/lose reward spread wouldn't work well if it was as sparse on non-alt non-afk non-bot players as tierra is. Which is the problem on a server as small and relatively inactive as classic. I feel like two times spread out throughout the day or at different times each day (could poll for the best times) would probably make it workably convenient enough for most time zones, and work to focus attendance and get some decent numbers.

Maybe it wouldn't work as well as I hope but it might be worth at least trying out, because the level of casual attendance we get in tierra would never sustain anything but a casual farmfest design of BG like tierra is, and after the initial novelty wears off I don't see any new 24/7 BGs drawing much more activity than that no matter how well designed.

[Xellie]

Acid bomb may end up out in the cold with free bg supplies idk, it's hard not knowing the limits of item scripts but would it be possible to make a "bomb dispenser" lower headgear that is only enabled in BGs, that is scripted to generate bomb items in the players inventory whenever acid bomb is successfully used and hits (as in is used and uses up bombs so it's not exploitable for infinite bombs). That's the only idea I can think of atm.

 

 

nope wont work  dont make me explain too much pain typing

[Heart]

nope wont work  dont make me explain too much pain typing

 

pretty sure its been explained multiple times how skills that use consumables to cast won't work in that fashion.
 

[rojoky113]

I know we've gone over how skills have to use set consumables that are hard coded, I was trying to brainstorm possible clever workarounds like a gear that drops/gives bombs on skill use or something that can then be enabled by map only in BGs.

 

Other idea is have BG npc not allow people in with their own bombs, give them a set number of bombs to use during the match, and take all leftover bombs when they exchange for their badges at the end. Need some clever way to prevent logging out or disconnecting during BGs to equal free bombs though, likely wouldn't work either.

 

Like I said, I'm trying my hardest to think here but in the end acid bomb might just be a free BG supplies casualty with nothing realistic able to be done about it.

Edited by rojoky113, 08 February 2016 - 10:33 AM.

[Xellie]

sorta gone over every version of that when brainstorming. lower headgear that allows use of level 10 acid bomb? (requires catalyst) headgear that puts item in your inventory then casts it? you'd need to use a skill or do a damage for that to happen and even then what stops people mailing them off? so many things.

 

I guess edp could be replaced by a bg only sinx only consumable that mimics the effect. That would be nice.

 

 

Edited by Xellie, 08 February 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[Themes]

It's really not worth the effort to think about it, it's a pretty big hurdle to jump though and I can think of a bunch of ways you could exploit things (mailing bombs off after entering, using cart or kafra cards etc). There really isnt any good way around it without somehow creating a new skill that uses a different set of items, you could apply it to an equippable item etc.

 

I thought about having "fun" BGs/PvP/GvG rooms on the test server, where you can actually throw gear/supplies at people. But the lack of a way to reward people on the actual server is always a problem.

 

The problem with randomisation though is it's so hard, each player gets their team assigned to them when they speak to the NPC on the BG map before entering the room with the chat. You could maybe get it to check for a party, then put the first four players from any given party onto one team (then if there was another party put them on a second team). While doing some tracking of which classes are there already to split things up to make sure each team gets a performer/supports etc.

 

Thinking about it you may be able to get teams assigned after everyone has queued up and the teams get sorted a little bit, but it's honestly beyond my knowledge or experience.

 

However I am all for removing the bots and encouraging people to win (by playing with win:loss reward ratios) as long as it's actually possible to do so. I've spent time in the past tryharding BGs and ended up just losing for an hour and a half, it's a struggle to want to go back after that.

[Xellie]

A thought : (need your opinion on this one themes) is that they should lower the weight of ranked blues to match bg blues? It seems stupid that free, effortless blues work out better in that manner than something that requires so much effort to create?

[ShinRyoma]

I ain't Themes but I don't think messing with weights will make much sense while Kafra Cards/ Weight up Scrolls are around. The "free" status of the bg blues overshadows the fact that they SUCK SO BAD at healing sp. For champs and other low int classes, I mean. I'd rather run 2 champs in my guild using decent blues/yggs and a couple of Kafra Cards than a bunch of champs using bg pots. They're kinda ok to Creators and suckish to SinX's, but the latter doesn't use all of its sp in a hit. That's all the classes I WoE'd with on Classic, so idk about the rest. 

[Xellie]

But! BG sucks for people who play supports and it would bring the value of blue herbs up (good for starters/newbies) and some market movement would be nice

 

When you think about it kafra cards makes it irreverent in terms of power, just how many you can carry at once. So its more QoL if anything.

[ShinRyoma]

Well I have never heard of a situation where a character that has used the Gym Dude ran out of pots in the middle of a battle. I mean, there's always time for reload in between battles... But I see your point, maybe you're right. What if they raised Bg pots Weight instead of lowering the ranked blues? My champ would certainly love lighter ranked blues but our 120 players WoE would probably become a 120 champs WoE. HUE.

[Xellie]

Well ppl in vh run out mid battle all the time but we fight non stop so its no surprise right?

 

it would be nice to actually hand out the blues to characters other than champs, I see for example oh you're an <class that isnt a champ> go to bg and get blues.

[rojoky113]

I run out of pots at inconvenient times mid-fight occasionally. If you took time to resupply between every fight/death you aren't likely to run into that issue very often but when stuffs goin down you might not have time to, or you might just be defending a stone or something for over an hour and run dry randomly just from extended time spent fighting without having convenient kafra breaks. But yeah with kafra cards weight limit issues are mostly QoL.

And idk what your potting speed or int-vs-sp is but using woe blues I can pot from zero to full on a champ during the time it takes to zen-fury-zen and fist again, at about 140 dex and 176 aspd. Yggs really shine for me when under pressure/fire, obviously they are great but I don't think woe blues are THAT horrible, plus half weight, free and easy to get a -_-ton of pretty quick. They're pretty OP.

Edited by rojoky113, 08 February 2016 - 04:03 PM.

[Xellie]

I just think stuff you work for should be > stuff you afk for

Edited by Xellie, 08 February 2016 - 03:52 PM.