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[Proposal] Please remove Bowling Bash Cool Down in Renewal.


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#76 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 02:45 AM

Woe do needs a kind of balance, while on pvm you mostly do fine with anything you throw out there. The thing is this was an issue in pre renew woe, actual woe 1/2 wouldnt get affected. But then we got woe TE and part of the issue can return.
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#77 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 03:17 AM

Well, you're right about WOE needing balance, but PvM needs balance too, especially when you see the amount of content it has and the actual game economy it brings.

In any case, this would not harm WOE-TE as I mentioned since it would be obvious if they cheated because legit LKs cant hit instant cast no matter what. It would in fact help by making it easier for current WOE-TE players to catch cheaters because now you can see them spam BB really fast. Not to mention LKs legitimately cannot get 193 aspd as well.

In the current state, with the presence of this cool down, WOE-TE cheaters can still cheat because they can still entirely skip agi and dex to do fast BB casts anyway- which is still an advantage over legit LKs, except you can't even tell whether he cheated or not. The problem is the accessibility of the cheats to begin with, not the skill. It's not right to destroy BB for a lower tier WOE (It's called Training edition) when it is one of the more important skills for RKs in what I see as a bigger and more major aspect of the game.

Even with that said, it is only with WOE-TE in consideration that I don't mind if they restrict BB just for WOE if it would thus please WOE-TE players despite the lack of incentives. However, my stance is that if they can't do it solely for WOE, they should still just go ahead and remove it- or in worst case, implement Zayaan's idea for the lower headgear. Just that it would garner really bad impression from me personally (and likely many other players) because it signifies that iRO Devs/GMs actually prioritises WOE-TE (I repeat- Training edition, guys) over Renewal PVM balance, where 99% of all Renewal content updates are about.


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 09 March 2016 - 03:19 AM.

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#78 spikexp

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 05:00 AM

training edition can train cheaters to cheat on the actual woe scene

but it can also train the GMs to spot cheaters so yeah, but I still stand neutral
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#79 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 06:30 AM

I have just added in a section (D) that showcases the lost in DPS in exact skill percentages due to the BB cool down, which was taken from the comparison between IB and other classes skills explained in page 2. 


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#80 Kadelia

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 06:56 AM

In this thread I learned rune knights are underprivileged in pvm
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#81 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:10 AM

It applies only for rune knights not using DB though.


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#82 mrricebox

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:25 AM

I just found it really funny when you tried to argue RGs have it easier than RKs cuz no cast time on CS.


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#83 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:28 AM

It applies only for rune knights not using DB though.


It applies to any class that doesnt follows the easy way. 

 

Counter Slash GX, Spellfist Sorcs, etc, list goes on.


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#84 DemliekCake

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:33 AM

It applies to any class that doesnt follows the easy way. 

 

Counter Slash GX, Spellfist Sorcs, etc, list goes on.

but at least those skill work like how they are in kro right?


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#85 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:38 AM

If ppl didnt cheated here, nothing of this would have ever happened. Now we jusy deal with "our" own mistakes.
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#86 DemliekCake

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:38 AM

I just found it really funny when you tried to argue RGs have it easier than RKs cuz no cast time on CS.

and tell me, if we are going to compare IB with OB (since they are the main leveling skill for PhysicalRk and SpearRG), which one between Sonic Wave, or Wind Cutter that you want to compare to CS, and think that it is better than CS?


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#87 1392140604170018137

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:39 AM

3rd classes needing pre-trans skills to level with. It's like being a chaser all over again
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#88 DemliekCake

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:40 AM

If ppl didnt cheated here, nothing of this would have ever happened. Now we jusy deal with "our" own mistakes.

and now that people no longer have the need to abuse it (go use ndl on db instead of bb), don't you think we should remove this "temporary fix"?


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#89 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:46 AM

It applies to any class that doesnt follows the easy way. 

 

Counter Slash GX, Spellfist Sorcs, etc, list goes on.

 

 

I guess you're right, but here I'm not complaining about that. I'm simply trying to get a skill to work as it was intended. Moreover, It's not like a fighting RK is a spinoff for-fun alternative that we come out with. Item updates specifically for RKs so far and even later patches, are all stronger swords and things that boost physical damage. Plus the entire skill tree of Rune Knight is based on fighting, except for the two dragon breaths. You can definitely see the intention of kRO not seeing RKs just being made for DBs  (DB improving gears that come out so far are all never specifically RK gears for example).


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#90 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:46 AM

As long as the skill is used in a comprtitive scenario(woe te) there are risks. Im dont really care, whatever action they take, the only thing im poiting out is as of why they did this, and what can happen if they undo. If abusers come back again, the skill just gonna be re-nerfed.
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#91 mrricebox

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 07:52 AM

If you're getting outdamaged by a RG with medium equips then you're doing it wrong. And we can't just remove the CD "cuz w/e go use ndl on DB" because BB is effective in TE. If you have ndl, why would you stop at DB if it's effective on other skills too? And let's be real, it's not like they ban people who use ndl very often anyways.

 

Edit: dafuq happened to my font size '-'.


Edited by mrricebox, 09 March 2016 - 07:53 AM.

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#92 DemliekCake

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:01 AM

If you're getting outdamaged by a RG with medium equips then you're doing it wrong. And we can't just remove the CD "cuz w/e go use ndl on DB" because BB is effective in TE. If you have ndl, why would you stop at DB if it's effective on other skills too? And let's be real, it's not like they ban people who use ndl very often anyways.

 

Edit: dafuq happened to my font size '-'.

Vp can easily outdamage sonic wave, and CS can easily outdamage wind cutter.

BB damage in te is meh at most. Reason why people die to it is basically they dont use proper redux in te and heck, some even run with 1 vit build and have crap hp. Btw, again BB have fix cast time for te. 

So btw since ndl can be use on other skills as you mentioned and gm dont ban ndl user, should we add 0.5 fix cd to all those skill?

edit: if everyone value woe te that highly, they can just put that cd in te only if that it possible. I dont really give a crap about te nowadays. It is basically dead.


Edited by DemliekCake, 09 March 2016 - 08:06 AM.

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#93 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:09 AM

I just found it really funny when you tried to argue RGs have it easier than RKs cuz no cast time on CS.

Sorry for referring to your post late. Just wanted to reply to you that I am aware of what I am posting. CS and EB are actually comparable skills that has both their perks and cons, where  facts actually lean towards EB being better for a long term DPS, while CS just has a strong one time burst. You may see what I mean below:


Cast time: CS has a fixed 1 second cast time, while Exceed Break has 7seconds variable cast time. While you might think that 7 seconds is hefty, it is entirely possible to remove it, which you can never do with CS. (Cast reduc gears, Hawk Eye, Magic Strings, list goes on...). They are entirely comparable based on preferences. CS is interruptable similar to EB, so no difference there. The big difference here, however, is that CS has a 30 seconds reuse time while EB only has a 1 second after cast delay (which can be removed through Magic strings too!).

Damage potential: Exceed Break's damage potential is not too far off from CS with a mjolnir able to give you a 7000% damage modifer (Doom slayer gives you the same modifier for basically 500K), or 5740% using everyone's favourite cheap choice of hunting spear. The best part is EB doesnt even require any upgrade on the weapon to hit such a high percentage. CS may be able to hit more, but that would require very expensive high upgrades. A standard +12 weapon, which is already pretty hefty on the price, for example, would give 7800% (adding 600 from watk+weight). Putting a realistic figure of +14 for god-like gears here gives you 8600%. However, if you use just a +9 weapon here, your damage drops to 6600% only.

 

Cost to Cast: EB has a 10% movement speed penalty (we all know this isnt a big deal with speed potions). CS, on the other hand, requires you to make a rune to cast it, while you can only bring 20 of each time. Runes are heavy as well, weighing 10 per rune. Additionally, CS breaks your weapon at a 20% chance, which does not happen for EB

Conclusion:
As you can see, EB has a very easy to achieve high damage modifier of 5740% or even 7000%, while CS has a wider range of modifiers that can be stronger but takes a very hefty upgrade pricing to acquire. Moreover, CS breaks your weapon and requires a rune to cast, while also has a hefty 30 seconds reuse time. EB, on the other hand, has no such downsides and is entirely spammable. In just a matter of five seconds, EB's DPS has entirely thrashed CS. The only upside, is that if you're looking for a one time magic figure (which is not representative of DPS), Crush strike hurts more.

 


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 09 March 2016 - 08:11 AM.

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#94 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:13 AM

He was refering to Cannon Spear bruh, wich for god knows why, position bugs the crap out the f whole time '-'
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#95 DemliekCake

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:17 AM

it is wayyy easier to position bug if you ride the chicken. Try mobbing in hardrock mamoth map with rg. 
You can feel the difference between on and off chicken. Heck, sometime you cant even use bwing :x


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#96 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:18 AM

The skill itself bugs for no reason, the mob is 1 cell in front of you and it just doesnt hit, and CS doesnt rely on hit rate '-'
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#97 DemliekCake

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:21 AM

maybe because of the same concept that people use to dodge fenrir earth thingy? I think that for the 3x3 area around you, it doesnt count the corner as its aoe?


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#98 Ashuckel

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:26 AM

It does, hits diagonals. I just accepted the skill is a super weird. Sometimes tere are 2 mobs on the same exact cell and 1 of them doesnt gets hit, like wth
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#99 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:30 AM

Oh. My bad xD I really actually thought he referred to crush strike haha.

Anyway, Future Bio 5 headgear actually boost cannon spear to pretty absurdly high damage levels too. See this image by a RG in twRO

http://truth.bahamut...577e4d42b6d.PNG


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#100 DemliekCake

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:40 AM

dude. megs. and +14 headgear.

so i assume that is 500k cannon spear? wtf


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