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Bring back old evade/block to some extent


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#1 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:05 AM

Having old evade/aim and block would definitely help and Nerf alot of classes. Also, making a cap of missing from evade and block together at 30% would perhaps be wise. Numbers can always change from testing. Just what I think could be a good number.

Pros -

- Thief and archer class have buff since it is their primary stat.
- X-spam class such as invoker and summoner won't hit as much and less flinching from spam.
- Paladin would get better from their own blockrate, thus buffing them too.
- The focus won't be stacking hp/vit on every class. As of right now, everyone can hit everyone at the same level without getting any aim/accuracy so stacking hp is a must for everyone without question. This makes diversity not optimal.
- Sorcerors would be the old version as which they do not need aim/accuracy to hit their spells. They can still miss from block though as they are definitely in need of some buff if this is implemented.


Cons -

- The overlord class would definitely need some help as they are the only class that does not benefit at all from this.

Tldr: Ninjas, archers, paladins, and sorcerors benefit making the xspam class, invoker and summoners weaker from missing some shots. More diversity in builds instead of brain dead stacking hp. Having a cap in block/evade in % chance of missing hits would perhaps balance it as everyone knows missing 70% of the time with evade/block rate is imbalanced.

Edited by falcoford, 08 April 2016 - 10:07 AM.

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#2 OokamiNeko

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:44 AM

A cheesy way to avoid taking damage without dodging an attack. That's just not how a game that should require " " "skill" " " has to be played. It makes random generated numbers more important than accuracy, reaction time and general knowledge of the game at some point, which looks nothing less than absurd.

 

With 20% evade and block, you have more than 30% chance to simply avoid an attack, 12% chance to avoid two of them in a row... That's just nonsense. Skill wouldn't even matter anymore, as the luckier of two duelists would have the upper hand. This kind of feature was removed from a reknowned MOBA ages ago, exactly because a lucky streak could completely destroy any kind of balance. As in "one attack could have killed them, while I had enough to survive three. Bad luck, I died". Flip a coin, and see who wins !

 

 

Just no. I'm totally against this kind of pseudo-balancing, without of course talking about Destroyers who are very far from having it tough, as a heavy damage class, and would benefit greatly from this. I can't see a way for Warlocks to be buffed by something that would make Magic missiles miss more than they already do either.


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#3 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:47 AM

As I said, sorcerors would not need any aim/acc to hit with their abilities and that is what it used to be long ago.
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#4 flubsy

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:51 AM

flub approves this idea


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#5 OokamiNeko

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:52 AM

They already don't need any accuracy in order to hit with anything other than basic attacks, fortress, missiles and meteors. How could no change to their mechanism be a buff ?


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#6 Agitodesu

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:53 AM

Eyy 40% evade, 1000+ Hlt, 420+ mspd, Lets go. I would love to fight against a 400k+ hp, 40% evade invoker in a perfect seal all dey.


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#7 Precrush

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:54 AM

Block and Dodge as they were before were not very good systems to begin with. Like OokamiNeko said, it's all about luck. They enabled the classes to run into battle without too much worry about getting flinched, knocked over or receiving the vast majority of stuns and freezes. I would only be for this if upon dodging or blocking the target still received the effect of the atk, so if they got hit by say cross cut but dodged it, they'd still get flinched. And even then it'd need to be balanced carefully.

 

So all in all I don't believe it's worth the work to bring it back, there're other ways to balance things. I don't like responding to an op thing with another op thing...


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#8 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:02 AM

Eyy 40% evade, 1000+ Hlt, 420+ mspd, Lets go. I would love to fight against a 400k+ hp, 40% evade invoker in a perfect seal all dey.


Do you know how it works? Thieves and archers have a higher base agi stat therefore, perfect stat voker/summoner vs perfect stat archer/thief class means, they will have higher evade/aim than invoker/summoner...No matter what the highest aim/evade invoked or summoner can get, ninja and archer can get more with the best equips if you are talking about the same level of build. You would also have to sacrifice vit to get agi in the 5 stat bonuses per level so it makes diversity better. More hp or more agi.

Edited by falcoford, 08 April 2016 - 11:08 AM.

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#9 StormHaven

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:09 AM

More attackspeed you had= The better chance you had to beat old Evaders. so this would basicly do nothing.

 

also Max Evade Invokers were the biggest nightmare to ever be a thing in DS right after 100% Block pallies and Orignal twin's the ignored all def.


Edited by StormHaven, 08 April 2016 - 11:10 AM.

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#10 Agitodesu

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:11 AM

I do know how it works, but you should know you can place evade/agi on every piece of gear except weapon with evade. Do you really think having that much evade will let you kill those stacked players? Doesn't matter if you can't top up with 40% other classes besides those can still reach a high number, otherwise you're just asking for a evade buff only on those 2 classes which to be honest won't even matter, but will cause more work with balancing and etc. which having a system based on those is not the best idea.


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#11 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:12 AM

It would still even the playing field a bit better. There would be more chance of someone running in and disrupting easier with classes that have no chance vs the best classes.
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#12 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:14 AM

I do know how it works, but you should know you can place evade/agi on every piece of gear except weapon with evade. Do you really think having that much evade will let you kill those stacked players? Doesn't matter if you can't top up with 40% other classes besides those can still reach a high number, otherwise you're just asking for a evade buff only on those 2 classes which to be honest won't even matter, but will cause more work with balancing and etc. which having a system based on those is not the best idea.

Paladins get their block back, both thief classes and both archer classes get evade back. Ninja gets block also. Not sure what %s. Can be tested to see which is balanced #. Sorcerors are the old school no abilities need aim to hit. That's alot of buffs that could help. Given voker summs still good, but not as op. I'm also talking about stacked vs stacked. Not a noob ninja with crap equips vs a op equipped summoner

Edited by falcoford, 08 April 2016 - 11:15 AM.

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#13 StormHaven

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:14 AM

It would still even the playing field a bit better. There would be more chance of someone running in and disrupting easier with classes that have no chance vs the best classes.

 

Except when those best classes now stack evade ALONG with stacking attackspeed then you're back a square one.


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#14 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:17 AM

Except when those best classes now stack evade ALONG with stacking attackspeed then you're back a square one.

You are missing the point. They cant reach as high evade or aim as thief / archer classes.
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#15 Agitodesu

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:19 AM

I don't think you're understanding what we are trying to say. Read carefully on everything and soak in the information and apply it yourself, not judge a book by it's cover.


Edited by Agitodesu, 08 April 2016 - 11:19 AM.

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#16 OokamiNeko

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:21 AM

Try disrupting a Paladin who couldn't care less about your Emblem, Blizzard etc. before they impale you. Super-even and balanced when they can walk through a few things you throw at them. As Agito wrote above, trying to solve a problem by making everything more complicated isn't the way to do it. It's been empirically proven by a number of people.

 

You just have to do things how they're supposed to be done from the start, and if something made the problem too complicated, revert it back or find another way, without adding a tower to this ever-shaking castle.

Soulcrafting, socketting and premium costumes allow any class to reach high amounts of any given stat. A 30% evade Summoner is something I just don't want to see, thank you very much.


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#17 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:26 AM

As I said earlier, why is everyone talking about the extreme of things. Having a cap on % miss/ block rate would obviously be made. No 100% block paladin. I thought I made that clear on the first post. As I said, sorcs wouldn't need aim anymore for their abilities. Summoners with 30% evade would get hit by all the archer and thieves as they can't get nearly enough evade vs their aim due to agi stats. Perfectly geared chars, invoker/summoner cant beat archer/thief in agi/aim/rvade.
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#18 StormHaven

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:29 AM

You are missing the point. They cant reach as high evade or aim as thief / archer classes.

 

let me put it this way, back with the old system ANY class could push into the 400-500 evade territory, only Ninjas,Savages,and Sentinels could push into the 700+ range. That being said only Sentinels and Ninjas could achieve enough aim to hit anyone at the 500 range 100% everyone else had to deal with only 30-50% hit chance on them. Missing your opponent 1/3rd of the time just allows for the strongest classes to be more unbeatable.


Edited by StormHaven, 08 April 2016 - 11:32 AM.

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#19 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:30 AM

More attackspeed you had= The better chance you had to beat old Evaders. so this would basicly do nothing.

also Max Evade Invokers were the biggest nightmare to ever be a thing in DS right after 100% Block pallies and Orignal twin's the ignored all def.

Also, I never talked about twins. Please mee things relevant w/ original post.
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#20 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:31 AM

let me put it this way, back with the old system ANY class could push into the 400-500 evade territory, only Ninjas,Savages,and Sentinels could push into the 700+ range. That being said only Sentinels and Ninjas could achieve enough aim to hit anyone at the 500 range 100% everyone else had to deal with only 30-50% hit chance on them.

As I said %s can change.
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#21 sean718

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:39 AM

Block rate could be a specific paladin class passive.

Final Evade rate could be a specific thief class passive.

 

20% initial block rate for pally's with a hard cap of 40%. Evade stacking pally or any other calss isn't an issue with the way it is now. Final evade can be utilized for thiefs/archers.

 

25% initial final evade rate for ninja class with a hard cap of 45%. Less tanky, less hp, less cc's than paladins and other classes. Also give them a 5% initial block rate with 10% hard cap.

 

40% additional hp passive for overlords. Reduce bloodyroar hp loss per second to .5% and increase attk bonus from from 60% to 100%. 

 

15% final evade rate for savage, hardcap of 30%.

 

 

 


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#22 Precrush

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:39 AM

Well if the % wasn't big it wouldn't balance anything at all out, and if there was a cap every stacked player would just reach that cap no problem while having all their other stats the same. Why do you want this system entirely based on luck in the game? Wouldn't you rather have real balance? Those dodge/block times were way more imbalanced then the current times imo.


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#23 OokamiNeko

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:39 AM

You are missing the point.

 

 

A chance to avoid anything JUST because the game decided to be mean to someone other than you isn't skill, it isn't a game that requires anything but luck. Once out of ten a Ninja will come and kick your ass, without caring about anything you throw at them, and this is clean, simple, horrendous bull-[insert something here]. A 10% block rate Paladin will come and kick your ass no matter what, just because. How the hell is that supposed to make anything better ?


Edited by OokamiNeko, 08 April 2016 - 11:40 AM.

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#24 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:43 AM

Not every player would do that. There is evade,agi,aim,vit,crit damage,crit rate. That's so many stats to focus on. If you max evade with summoned, you would still get hit by thief/archer who max aim. All those stats on evade is therefore wasted on that summoned. Max aim on summoner wont reach as high vs max evade thief/archer. Therefore, they would want a balance or just forget trying to reach it and stay with vit. There are also skills that hit through evade/block such as stumblebum. Barbarian would still be op. Invoker main catch with magnet and barbarian aren't even effected by block or evade. Their main damage output/flinch will be nerfed if they miss their xspam however much often. Summoner would do less dps too. All other classes basically just get stronger overall. Summoners and invokers will still be strong classes and possibly still op, but they will drfinitely be missing some xspams. As of now, invoked summoners are in a tier list / league of their own.

Edited by falcoford, 08 April 2016 - 11:50 AM.

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#25 StormHaven

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:53 AM

You can stack evade while stacking Agi/CR/Hlt/Aim etc. Eva is on every piece of equipment except weapons, plus Stat/SPecial sockets.


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