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Renewal WoE Revitalization Project


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#101 Mulder1

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 07:43 PM

 

  • Cheating
    • Development of kRO of post cast delay cool downs for all skills in game.

 

Soo... after destroying "Release" spell by adding a global cooldown (which was never fixed btw), now you want to destroy the few DPS classes that are left?

 

I think this change will mostly benefit one side of the table... the side that owns several Double Meg Suras for Tiger Cannon and Rangers with Thanatos card.

 

It looks kinda biased in my opinion since it will benefit all 1 hit K.O. skills such as Arrow Storm and Tiger Cannon and will pretty much kill any other class that can't 1 shot.

 

If we do a quick analysis of current WoE situation as of today, I can't helped but to see this decision quite one sided which makes me believe there's some double standards in the way these decision are being made... timing, oriented changes, etc.

 

I want to believe that there will be some sort of benefit coming from this specific change... but as of today, with the current meta and the way the 2 dominating sides are set up, I'm afraid this change will benefit only one side.

 

Thank you.


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#102 Ashuckel

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 08:21 PM

All these ppl thinking only on the self benefit made me LOL hard :v


As for potting delay: 140~200ms is a very good amount already. Who argues that this is not enough is certainly someone using a macro/ahk/autopot, since its pretty rare for an average human to be able to press the key faster than this while focusing on other tasks & pressing other keys at the same time.

Skill cooldown: All there needs to be done is that the cooldown matches with the character forced animation, when they have one (Genetic Cart Cannon, AB Pneuma, etc, just for example). If the skill is spammable at aspd, make the cooldown 140ms, since thats what 193 aspd is. 

No aliances looks good. 

Masks way of working should be revised. Either apply the cooldown even on failure, or revise the success formula, mainly making the resistance part more effective.

Sura's GoH and TC balanced, as described by WolfTri already. As for GoH i think that applying woe reduction (50%) to the missing hp part should already be a great balancing, reduces the overall power of it and it's 1shot ability in any situation, and it's still good to be used. TC splash damage is not acutally splash, but regular aoe, taking everyone different reduction in consideration, also the SP drain should be only on the targeted one.


As for Doram... Their Skill% aren't strong enough to make it that demihuman reductions fully work against them(Even tho their items are pretty pretty op to compensate that), something like 1/4 or 1/3 of the player demihuman reduc being applied should be fine, BUT, we don't even have the class yet so let's not puppy up with it before it even comes. Let's check first, and then decide.
 


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#103 Undying

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:00 PM

As for potting delay: 140~200ms is a very good amount already. Who argues that this is not enough is certainly someone using a macro/ahk, since its pretty rare for an average human to be able to press the key faster than this while focusing on other tasks & pressing other keys at the same time.

 

It is 2016 and almost half way to 2017, who doesn't have access to a macro keyboard or AHK for self made macro? Anybody that wants a macro can have it.

 

5 potions per second will remove support classes from the game. If I wanted to play a game with potion cooldowns I'd play LoL. Let me play RO in peace, thank you. 


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#104 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:02 PM

Status effects tho?

 

It is 2016 and almost half way to 2017, who doesn't have access to a macro keyboard or AHK for self made macro? Anybody that wants a macro can have it.

 

5 potions per second will remove support classes from the game. If I wanted to play a game with potion cooldowns I'd play LoL. Let me play RO in peace, thank you. 

Why u always got to attack the person just put your thoughts on why it should not be. leave your emotions on the desk and only type logically please.


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#105 Undying

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:08 PM

Status effects tho?

Why u always got to attack the person just put your thoughts on why it should not be. leave your emotions on the desk and only type logically please.


Other then elaborating on his point and strictly speaking to his points I didn't reference anyone. If people don't know what AHK is or how to script a simple macro then they should be made aware how.

For example: who wants to level to 175 as a RC GX pressing a button 5 times per second for ~40+ hours straight? That is extremely taxing on the body. Same thing with using potions, anybody that is still manually pressing the button 10+ times per second (very repetitive body mechanic) is hurting themselves. My point: macros are needed and have been need for a decade to play this game safely without causing harm to your own body.

Try not to instigate or put words in people's mouths shiobi. Let's keep this thread drama free. Feel free to pm me if you have a problem with the current year or my concern for people's safety. I rather not fill this thread with explaining simple points.
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#106 Ashuckel

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:09 PM

It is 2016 and almost half way to 2017, who doesn't have access to a macro keyboard or AHK for self made macro? Anybody that wants a macro can have it.

5 potions per second will remove support classes from the game. If I wanted to play a game with potion cooldowns I'd play LoL. Let me play RO in peace, thank you.

Have played both support and offensive classes. Never touched ahk or macro of any sort and by all means the class was playable and just fine. Idk, when i play a game, i want to play the game, not having the machine to do every task for me.

Edit: this argument reminds me of the autopot thread. Because some ppl have means to pot 3x or more faster than who is playing without any sort of external help, then now everyone is obligated to download said aplications/buy those mouse/keyboards? Just to have a chance to compete? Dont think so

Edited by Ashuckel, 06 May 2016 - 09:13 PM.

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#107 Undying

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:23 PM

Have played both support and offensive classes. Never touched ahk or macro of any sort and by all means the class was playable and just fine. Idk, when i play a game, i want to play the game, not having the machine to do every task for me.

Edit: this argument reminds me of the autopot thread. Because some ppl have means to pot 3x or more faster than who is playing without any sort of external help, then now everyone is obligated to download said aplications/buy those mouse/keyboards? Just to have a chance to compete? Dont think so

If an individual can afford a mouse with a scroll wheel you can also set that up to pot. Downloading or buying a specific piece of hardware isn't needed, other then a mouse with a scroll wheel. However, I could see your argument against macros, which have been very commonly used for over a decade, the same as the anti rcx argument.

Changing the potion speed to 5 per second would be a fundamental change to the entire game. Potion spamming (even skill spamming) is a core and unique aspect to RO. inam opposed to changing unique aspects and fundamental mechanics of the game for no reasons or for no logical balance being put in place other then bandaid fixes.

Edited by Undying, 06 May 2016 - 09:25 PM.

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#108 PervySageMarty

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 09:25 PM

I think we should all stop arguing, it shows that we are not a very united bunch of old farts who cant come to terms with whats the right and whats not.

 

 

Yooooooooooooooooooooo.

A remainder for now and onward, please make sure you are still within topic. Thank you.

 

Thankyou Cinnamod <3

 

So about increase status nullify to 100% with 130 stat points? any one?

 

This is a very good idea, it can help classes such as performers and Warlocks with their cripple skills.

 

because right now WoE kind of sucks and I'd rather be afk doing literally anything else. :b

 

 

 

Lets go get a coffee together and maybe a lobster dinner? My treat!

 


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#109 RaveMaster

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 10:18 PM

User with artritis in hands > AHK.


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#110 RecaIIer

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 11:48 PM

Melii: Suggest: add a cooldown for each masquerade attempt (regardless of failure or success), reduce ranger's unlimit damage bonus (woe only), suicidal destruction gains a very-fixed cast time, and get us STASIS RESISTANCE FORMULA.

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#111 3637131210094835917

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 12:04 AM

So... Can I get a buff fix on Song of Destruction?


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#112 DemliekCake

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 12:35 AM

If an individual can afford a mouse with a scroll wheel you can also set that up to pot. Downloading or buying a specific piece of hardware isn't needed, other then a mouse with a scroll wheel. However, I could see your argument against macros, which have been very commonly used for over a decade, the same as the anti rcx argument.

Changing the potion speed to 5 per second would be a fundamental change to the entire game. Potion spamming (even skill spamming) is a core and unique aspect to RO. inam opposed to changing unique aspects and fundamental mechanics of the game for no reasons or for no logical balance being put in place other then bandaid fixes.

so you cant play sac rg without ahk or macro?

/ok


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#113 Ashuckel

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 02:06 AM

so you cant play sac rg without ahk or macro?

/ok


I wanted to refrain on saying that, but its exactly what it seems. The option to increase the amount of healing of said items is enough to make up for the potting speed """"loss"""", the only ones losing on that are those automating gameplay, wich i couldn't care less.
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#114 meditation

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 02:07 AM

It is 2016 and almost half way to 2017, who doesn't have access to a macro keyboard or AHK for self made macro? Anybody that wants a macro can have it.

 

5 potions per second will remove support classes from the game. If I wanted to play a game with potion cooldowns I'd play LoL. Let me play RO in peace, thank you. 

 

???? 5 potions per second + ygg seeds + ygg berry are more than enough to survive, even if you are a support class. If you are using ranked slims --> flamel card, regen potion, medium life potion + small life potion, + berry + seeds. If you're using woe whites --> medium life + small life potion + berry + seeds.

Is ridiculous to see someone spamming 10+ woe white potions per seconds in woe 2  and being able to outpout everything unless someway he/she got oneshotted, or have 30 people attacking him/her at the same time.


Edited by meditation, 07 May 2016 - 02:08 AM.

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#115 sheepmia

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 02:23 AM

Posts like this are ridiculous. It makes it clear everyone who's posting is just looking our for their own interests. Whether it be their own class, or their own guild, or their own alliance.


Sir you are ridiculous, can't you see everyone is looking out for their own interests ???
And it's actually GMs job to serve everyone's own interest, otherwise what is the point here ???

I am speaking out as a player of the SC class, and Yes, because I play SC, so what?

I am speaking out because there has been so many requests coming (from one particular side as well) to nerf the SC class as a whole.

And while there are no clear evidence and reason that nerfing SC can revitalize the WOE scene, actions will be made to permanently punish the class, without throughout consideration, based solely on (seemingly more, all from one a
particular alliance) people's opinion.

Camp this is ridiculous, you are basically forcing everyone who wants to excel in woe to play sura rk rg ranger while completely killing the purpose of other classes, which based solely on biased opinion, namely, the same group of people who complain all the time when they are mad.

Let's compare a SC to a RG
1. HP:
RG doubled, much more tanky
2. ATK:
RG one shot most people using crit EB, if not can use bellum flail
can achieve instant cast
SC masq enermy in (1-5) attempts,
using all buffs, but can not kill
3. Def:
RG has inspiration whichs make them immune to all debuff including masq, tank even gfist easily, tank no limited AS
SC are vulnerable to White imprison and masq and stone curse, Cannot tank a good gfist, a chained GOH, no limited AS.
4.Mobility
SC has more, but it doesn't matter caz CC is istant cast and 100% success rate, die after being CCed.
RG tanks everything, doesn't matter.

LOL so why is RG untouched? Oh and btw why is sura untouched? When did warlock become a problem? Not long ago you guys laugh about how bad it was, who made you fear warlock now?
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#116 Ashuckel

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 02:32 AM

Sir you are ridiculous, can't you see everyone is looking out for their own interests ???
And it's actually GMs job to serve everyone's own interest, otherwise what is the point here ???

I am speaking out as a player of the SC class, and Yes, because I play SC, so what?

I am speaking out because there has been so many requests coming (from one particular side as well) to nerf the SC class as a whole.

And while there are no clear evidence and reason that nerfing SC can revitalize the WOE scene, actions will be made to permanently punish the class, without throughout consideration, based solely on (seemingly more, all from one a
particular alliance) people's opinion.

Camp this is ridiculous, you are basically forcing everyone who wants to excel in woe to play sura rk rg ranger while completely killing the purpose of other classes, which based solely on biased opinion, namely, the same group of people who complain all the time when they are mad.

Let's compare a SC to a RG
1. HP:
RG doubled, much more tanky
2. ATK:
RG one shot most people using crit EB, if not can use bellum flail
can achieve instant cast
SC masq enermy in (1-5) attempts,
using all buffs, but can not kill
3. Def:
RG has inspiration whichs make them immune to all debuff including masq, tank even gfist easily, tank no limited AS
SC are vulnerable to White imprison and masq and stone curse, Cannot tank a good gfist, a chained GOH, no limited AS.
4.Mobility
SC has more, but it doesn't matter caz CC is istant cast and 100% success rate, die after being CCed.
RG tanks everything, doesn't matter.

LOL so why is RG untouched? Oh and btw why is sura untouched? When did warlock become a problem? Not long ago you guys laugh about how bad it was, who made you fear warlock now?


RGs need 130b+ worth of gear ( unless you rent, wich is about 1.6b per month) to make what you described work. SC doesn't comes even close. Its a reward for the super high investment, while chasers are a low/medium investment with guaranteed high reward.

Also, many on this thread who are SC players have asked to "nerf"(cof cof balance) the class, so who's acting on own interest here?
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#117 WolfTri

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 02:58 AM

Let's compare a SC to a RG
1. HP:
RG doubled, much more tanky
2. ATK:
RG one shot most people using crit EB, if not can use bellum flail
can achieve instant cast
SC masq enermy in (1-5) attempts,
using all buffs, but can not kill
3. Def:
RG has inspiration whichs make them immune to all debuff including masq, tank even gfist easily, tank no limited AS
SC are vulnerable to White imprison and masq and stone curse, Cannot tank a good gfist, a chained GOH, no limited AS.
4.Mobility
SC has more, but it doesn't matter caz CC is istant cast and 100% success rate, die after being CCed.
RG tanks everything, doesn't matter.

LOL so why is RG untouched? Oh and btw why is sura untouched? When did warlock become a problem? Not long ago you guys laugh about how bad it was, who made you fear warlock now?

1) I think anyone who does WoE knows that Max HP only tells half the story. A shadow chaser stacks maximum demi human resistance, while a Crit EB RG needs to wear a FAW, Luk Boots and Megs. Also a spear/Mjolnir. So the effective tankiness (from pure gears) is a LOT more than an RG. RG however has guard and defending aura, so I'd say arguably the two would be equally difficult to kill (while they do nothing but pot). This is also ignoring the fact that an SC can just Feint Bomb out of an undesirable situation. If he isn't Ignoranced or CC'd, he will not die. 

2) Not much to say about Atk, SC has none. But they can debuff anyone and take away their shield within ~2sec, and prevent them from using any skills. (For ~20sec). Pretty much makes them as useless as a dead man. The difference is that SC has Flying Kick, Backslide, Feint Bomb, and can easily access the enemy backline, and target whoever he wants unless he is killed. SC can also immediately change targets as soon as he is done with one, by just fly-kicking onto the next target.

3) SC with Tao Gunka is impossible to one shot, I think. Except maybe Tanee gfist. Maybe. (not going to bother counting SD or TC splash). Also inspiration is pretty high cooldown, and you need to recast your buffs after that. Not  very high uptime. It is also removed once the RG runs out of sp (which ironically can be achieved by a chaser)

4) Mobility matters because everything I've mentioned above. SC is on par with everything except mobility, but that mobility alone allows them to do so much more than an RG ever can. 

 

So no, RG is nowhere near as problematic as SC. And its worth mentioning that there are skills to protect yourself from Exceed Break, making the RG 100% useless. Like Safety Wall. You could also use Root or Crescent Elbow. Or just speed pot from the damn guy. None of those are an option against a Shadow Chaser. 

And as Ash mentioned, the cost difference. 

tldr; Think of Chakri with Flying Kick. Then I'd say SC vs RG is comparable.


Edited by WolfTri, 07 May 2016 - 03:00 AM.

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#118 WolfTri

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 03:05 AM

If an individual can afford a mouse with a scroll wheel you can also set that up to pot. Downloading or buying a specific piece of hardware isn't needed, other then a mouse with a scroll wheel. However, I could see your argument against macros, which have been very commonly used for over a decade, the same as the anti rcx argument.

Changing the potion speed to 5 per second would be a fundamental change to the entire game. Potion spamming (even skill spamming) is a core and unique aspect to RO. inam opposed to changing unique aspects and fundamental mechanics of the game for no reasons or for no logical balance being put in place other then bandaid fixes.

Game's designed for humans, not macros. So being able to spam potions at superhuman speeds is not a "core" feature. Not even an intended feature. Keep in mind that your macro is a third party program and can well be declared as illegal. Allowing them is one thing, modeling game balance around them is another.


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#119 hotel

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 03:29 AM

It's funny because you say that potion spamming is a core skill in RO, but then you argue for the use of macros/gaming mice to pot faster for you. I'm not seeing the skill involved in holding one button and letting the script keep you alive.

 

Also, the implementation of a small delay does not change fundamental mechanics at all. Potion spamming will still be a thing albeit with a lower skill ceiling, and those who were augmenting their potting ability using macros/etc will be brought into line. Honestly, reducing the impact any third party program/functionality has on the game is always a good thing in my opinion.


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#120 meli

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 03:34 AM

Sorry but the fact is currently shadow chaser masquerade spam ability is TOO HIGH, considering the sucess rates at 175 with a proper build makes for some retarded stuff like getting triple masq'd almost instantly (let's be very innocent and think all chasers are legit and not using macro). Sure other classes can use some tweaking, but chasers definitely do as well.


Edited by meli, 07 May 2016 - 03:35 AM.

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#121 DemliekCake

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 03:45 AM

one more problem i have with sc is masq gloomy on Db Rk. It basically remove your dragon, and will force you to go back to respawn point to get back your dragon.
So let me ask you, isnt it pretty much the same as dying?

Sc have one skill that allowed them to "remove" a db Rk from a team fight and they can spam it to multi target.

Now, let see what will happen if we put that game mechanic into other class.

What if sc can use masq enevertion and permanently remove sura's spirit spheres and ability to cast zen until that sura talk with a npc outside castle.
How many of you will actually be happy and accept that concept?

So my suggestions are:
1) Prevent the usage of masq gloomy inside castle. Chaser still can use Masq ignorance to "silence" the dbRk if he need to instead of permanently silencing that dbRk until that Rk speak to npc outside of castle.

2)Create a item to summon dragon. and mado. and other type of mount. Seriously, why only ranger have this option? I know this is rangerok and all, but still.

3)Create a couple of npc inside castle where you can get your drag back. (for woe2, maybe one in every stone, barricade, and emp room).


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#122 Ashuckel

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 03:51 AM

I'd say that gloomy should still be usable, but the dismounting feature should be by chance, even if a high one. Ah and Gloomy Shyness chance of removing the mount increased. But the idea of having a way of getting the dragon back is good. The falcon flute that hunters have could be it, as its a 1 time only recall(you can only carry one), with a certain cooldown to get the next flute frm the npc(10-15min?).

Ofc dont implement ALL these suggested changes, this indeed would be nerfing SC a lot.

Edited by Ashuckel, 07 May 2016 - 03:56 AM.

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#123 DemliekCake

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 03:54 AM

dunno. I hate that skill. I dont think a spamable skill that can instantly remove a player from teamfight should exist. Isnt that why that skill is ban from tournament or something?


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#124 Ashuckel

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 03:58 AM

Banned from tournaments since you wont be getting your mount back. But as for woe should be fine. Its a chance to remove the mount when the mask is aplied, so even if they get Gloomy off, it could be that the mount werent removed, and the mask cant be reaplied while still active.
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#125 YuyaFungami

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 04:49 AM

Because it's hard to click an npc outside a fort for your dragon back.


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