70 replies to this topic

[DemliekCake]

Original Skills back at their arrival & today:

Bash = DPS skill. 500%, 1 target

Mammonite = DPS skill. 600%, 1 target. Slightly more damage and lower sp cost than bash due to added zeny cost.

Double Strafe = DPS skill. 380%, 1 target. Lower damage than mammo because of range and easier access to elements.

Bowling Bash = NOT a DPS skill. 1000%, 3x3 targets. --- BALANCED BY HIDDEN CAST TIME/DELAY.

You are comparing 1st class skills with 2nd class skill.

Additional kick in your argument's nuts

The skills you claim are doing > 2000% are 3rd (4th tier) class skills.

Bowling Bash is a 2nd class (2nd tier) skill

 

Trying to act like these 2 types of skills are the same is misleading. It reveals your agenda.

 

Without delay bowling bash would be uncontestably be mathmatically better than bash in any application, including single target.
>Bash has inbuild stun chance. It is better than BB in TE for single target. If you want aoe, then use magnum break since BB in TE is crappy and you can spam MB better with string.

That doesn't even make sense, as they come from the same class, in the same low-level training block of time. This is like arguing storm gust should be superior to cold bolt when targetting 1 enemy that needs to die real quick. SG is intentionally slower as a tradeoff for being able to AoE, as bowlingbash is vs. bash.

Bash stops being useful for the same reason cold bolt does -- single-targetting things is ineffective. Really this isn't an indication of a problem with single target skills, but how monsters are designed.

 Btw, i can't help but mention that blackCross's proposal is removing THE FIX CD that isnt suppose to be there, NOT after cast delay.

and i am still waiting for that shadow gear that reduce BB fix cd from kro that you and toxn said we will get.

Edited by DemliekCake, 18 May 2016 - 06:34 AM.

[PervySageMarty]

I disagree, this isn't even an intelligent proposal. It's a biased one that's trying to mislead people into getting your pet build buffed. If you want your pet build buffed, you should be direct with it, not misleading.

Original Skills back at their arrival & today:
Bash = DPS skill. 500%, 1 target
Mammonite = DPS skill. 600%, 1 target. Slightly more damage and lower sp cost than bash due to added zeny cost.
Double Strafe = DPS skill. 380%, 1 target. Lower damage than mammo because of range and easier access to elements.
Bowling Bash = NOT a DPS skill. 1000%, 3x3 targets. --- BALANCED BY HIDDEN CAST TIME/DELAY.

Additional kick in your argument's nuts
The skills you claim are doing > 2000% are 3rd (4th tier) class skills.
Bowling Bash is a 2nd class (2nd tier) skill

Trying to act like these 2 types of skills are the same is misleading. It reveals your agenda.

Without delay bowling bash would be uncontestably be mathmatically better than bash in any application, including single target. That doesn't even make sense, as they come from the same class, in the same low-level training block of time. This is like arguing storm gust should be superior to cold bolt when targetting 1 enemy that needs to die real quick. SG is intentionally slower as a tradeoff for being able to AoE, as bowlingbash is vs. bash.
Bash stops being useful for the same reason cold bolt does -- single-targetting things is ineffective. Really this isn't an indication of a problem with single target skills, but how monsters are designed.

Let us also not forget that the original reason this happened to begin with was because people did the big no-no.

Edited by Marty5337, 18 May 2016 - 06:54 AM.
That was not nice at all.

[cory]

 Btw, i can't help but mention that blackCross's proposal is removing THE FIX CD that isnt suppose to be there, NOT after cast delay.

and i am still waiting for that shadow gear that reduce BB fix cd from kro that you and toxn said we will get.

 

Ty.  I'm too drugged up with cough syrup to comprehend and reply what Kaddy said.  Now  I know why i was confused lmao.

 

SO THATS why I can't BB dance anymore....

 

Is the BB fixed cast related with the DB fixed delay?

 

Wait....I just was informed (Thanks) iRO has SPECIFIC FIXED DELAYS for certain skills.  

 

Kindly, remove 2nd class fixed delays please.  You killed Bowling bash to prevent cheaters in an event that only ~150 people that WoE for 2 hours, 2x a week.

 

 

Edited by cory, 18 May 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[DemliekCake]

It all started when Zayaan posted a vid about kRo sc soloing NCT with SR+BB build.

I asked him for advice whether i can do that in iRo or mimic it with autocast.

He said that it is impossible due to the fact that iRo have specific CD on BB.

He said that it is because when someone report to GM about nodelay, that person use Bowling Bash, Double Strafe, and Arrow Shower to record a vid and show
GM what ndl is capable of.

The GM have a "bright" idea and put fix CD on those 3 skills including DB while ignoring other skills that can be abused with ndl.

The topic about fix CD  on BB resurface in BlackCross's physicalRK thread when we are talking about the effect of hawkeye enchant on Bowling Bash and Ignition Break spamming.

Blackcross tried to create a build with BB+IB+ tempdex build, but it isnt as effective in iRo compare to in other Server and someone mentioned about the fix CD on BB in iRo.

BlackCross create a proposal thread about removing Fix cd on BB.

that is the timeline for this whole event.

[cory]

I like how I just realized Kadelia tried twisting my argument about "Buffing" Bowling bash, when that is not the case at all.  Talk about specific-class hatred and delay-cooldown fan-girl.  Must of had a hard time dealing with Afrikan 7-9 years ago.

 

And I just watched kRO videos of bowling bash and saw no after-cast delays.  

 

I demand a reasonable explanation why only delays exist ONLY for these skills (excluding DB obviously)

 

Bowling Bash (500ms) iRO specific
Arrow Shower (333ms) 
Double Strafe (333ms)

 

 

[HeresNatan]

Then i'm thoroughly confused, or I'm not making my argument clear.  

 

BB's hidden cast time is reduced by DEX.

It's also affected by attack speed which is affected by AGI. 

 

Back in pre-renewal BB can be spammed and "danced" with high DEX and AGI.  Then animation cheating came along with the advent of DB animation canceling spam, and ruined the party for everyone.  

 

Now all skills are affected, rendering hidden cast time and attack speed animation reduction basically topped at stupidly low atk speed.  There's no incentive to continually achieve high attack speed to get the highest DPS from skills without hard after-cast delays.

 

So why isn't there a hard after-cast delay on the problematic skills instead of just applying a big fat band-aid to everyone?

 

 

WHOA WAIT IS THERE NO SERVER WIDE 0.2 DELAY?

 

My problem: Kiel card....

some ppl will leave if theirs thousands and thousands KP to a kiel mean nothing...

I would apeciate less delay, but in some skills....

[ShinobiEX3]

 

 
You know... mimicking Mayuri doesn't make you sound cute

Pft who cars about cute lol it's more catchy than other catch phrases. I won't be saying datebayo lol
Tu tu ru

[Kadelia]

Your opinion that a 2nd tier skill should have competitive damage with 4th tier skills does not resonate with ehat the game's developer wants. Get over it.

[cory]

Your opinion that a 2nd tier skill should have competitive damage with 4th tier skills does not resonate with ehat the game's developer wants. Get over it.

 

Then explain why Acid Bomb is still used in MVPing, PVP, and WoE?

 

You can't.

[WolfTri]

Then explain why Acid Bomb is still used in MVPing, PVP, and WoE?

 

You can't.

PvP? WoE?

What.

 

Either way, exceptions always exist. The only exception to that are the obvious Acid Bomb and to an extent Guillotine Fist. No other 2nd job skill is actually relevant damage-wise. The reason Acid Bomb and Gfist are still relevant are because Acid Bomb scales really well with enemy Vit, and Gfist scales really well with your SP. Both of these factors were increased along with the 3rd job update, hence they stayed relevant. Also offset by the still considerably high cost to use these skills (bomb sets aren't cheap, and filling your sp bar quickly isn't cheap either)

Edited by WolfTri, 18 May 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[WolfTri]

Getting back on topic, as was discussed in the WoE revitalization thread, there are plans to add a global fixed delay to every single skill to prevent automated skill abuse. That should answer your query.

[PervySageMarty]

Adding fixed delay to heal skill and pneuma......god lord what have we reduced to...

[WolfTri]

It's only about 200ms or so, normal human spamming would barely be affected. or at least that's the idea.

[cory]

Adding fixed delay to heal skill and pneuma......god lord what have we reduced to...

 

I agree.  But might as well drive this game to the dirt because I've stopped caring. Just "slap on a delay on everything". 

 

The WoE suggestion thread is completely filled with toxic suggestions that were the problem in the first place.  

[Kusanagisama]

It's only about 200ms or so, normal human spamming would barely be affected. or at least that's the idea.

 

Then, why add it at all? If there are problematic skills, you should nerf only these, and nerf according to the level of the trouble caused. Else, leave as is. Why the heck give all skills a "barely noticeable" nerf? It won't solve the source of the trouble, but will take away power from balanced or underpowered skills. Die, logic! Die!!!

 

It may be unnoticeable for spammable skills, but I'm pretty sure this has the potential to make a lot needless deaths in PVM while leveling.

[Kuroyukiii]

Some ppl just cant accept they got it wrong. (i did many big things for community, my knowledge is superior, played for 100 years) So, i will always be right.

 

On topic, if they touch mage classes, oh god, idk what to say.

[cory]

Your opinion that a 2nd tier skill should have competitive damage with 4th tier skills does not resonate with ehat the game's developer wants. Get over it.

 

Still waiting on an explanation why Acid bomb, a 2nd class skill, does competitive damage with 4th tier skills but is not "fixed" by adding a delay similar to Bowling bash, arrow shower, and double strafe...

 

Also

 

It's quite ironic how Ragnarok, a game where you spam clicks and skills, decides to localize for iRO a mechanic to restrict this very thing.  And to top it off, some players want even more restrictions set in place because  GOD O MIGHTY WOE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

 

Want to see the problem? Look in yourself. 

[DemliekCake]

^ also, since there is no fix cd on acid bomb, you can abuse ndl with acid bomb right?
and if we are talking about te, pretty sure acid bomb is wayyyyyyyyyyy more OP than BB.

so the arguement about why there is a fixed cd on BB is pure bs

but meh, that how iRo work.

[Ashuckel]

you dont need to use ndl on acid bomb, its own animation cuts itself with its cast. Tried 2x Fenrir with it too and it works fully at your aspd, but meh, 2 Fenrirs lol

[Havenn]

you dont need to use ndl on acid bomb, its own animation cuts itself with its cast. Tried 2x Fenrir with it too and it works fully at your aspd, but meh, 2 Fenrirs lol

 

This is the reason kiting with AB is nearly impossible

[Kusanagisama]

Still waiting on an explanation why Acid bomb, a 2nd class skill, does competitive damage with 4th tier skills but is not "fixed" by adding a delay similar to Bowling bash, arrow shower, and double strafe...

 

Actually, trans 2nd class skill, so, tier 3.

 

Let me list the reasons:

1 - You toss away ~30 K zeny per use;

2 - Pneuma;

3 - Its damage is highly dependant on the enemy's VIT, which supposedly is always high on WoE, but it's not the case in PVM/MVP.

Meanwhile, you don't spend a single peny using DB or IB, and *usually* Arrow Storm is way cheaper (maybe not with immaterial arrow), as CC is too. Even EDP is not that expensive to use, and it lasts one minute. You can deal way more damage in this one minute than in a single AD AB use. EDP is also a tier 3 skill that's comparable to tier 4 skills, though it's a self buff, so, it's not to be compared here, else even Bless will have to enter the comparison, which makes no sense.

 

It makes more sense for me to ask why Crimson Rock has a FIVE SECONDS cooldown (which can't be reduced by gears, until Nightmare Biolabs), Earth Strain has an even higher cooldown, as do TV... and Comet has a full one minute cooldown... But, NO... let's nerf ALL SKILLS LOL!!!

[Campitor]

Getting back on topic, as was discussed in the WoE revitalization thread, there are plans to add a global fixed delay to every single skill to prevent automated skill abuse. That should answer your query.

 

 

It's only about 200ms or so, normal human spamming would barely be affected. or at least that's the idea.

To clarify the proposal is as follows.

 

• Development of kRO of post cast delay cool downs for all skills in game. The minimum post cast delay for the skill should be EXACTLY equal to the minimum delay required to play the skill's animation as reduced by stats, and items. This should not be a nerf but a forcing of the proper cast times for all skills.

Please note that should should create no change for players. Why is this important? The game weirdly relies on animation delay instead of set cast times for a majority of skills. In stead of doing a jury rigged system we want it to be set in this manner so no matter the animation that is played there is a consistent usage rate that isn't weirdly affected by how laggy a computer is or if the moon is shining brightly on a data cable through the window.

[HeresNatan]

Para esclarecer a proposta é a seguinte.

 

• Desenvolvimento de kRO de pós atraso elenco penas frescas para todas as habilidades no jogo.  O atraso mínimo pós elenco para a habilidade deve ser exatamente igual ao atraso mínimo necessário para jogar animação da habilidade como reduzido em estatísticas e itens. Este não deve ser um nerf, mas um forçando das vezes elenco adequados para todas as habilidades.

Por favor note que deve deve criar nenhuma mudança para os jogadores. Por que isso é importante? O jogo baseia-se estranhamente em atraso animação em vez de conjunto fundido vezes para a maioria das habilidades. Em vez de fazer um sistema de júri fraudada queremos que ele seja definido desta maneira então não importa a animação que é jogado há uma taxa de utilização consistente, que não é estranhamente afetado pela forma como lag um computador é ou se a lua está brilhando sobre um cabo de dados através da janela.

Readers - Only an opinion - dont read if u are a troll...
I agree... It makes a lot of sense and right way...
The problem is the 175lvl and new monsters and players with more HP and OP

So, the 2nds, 3rd  skills is for pre-renewal...  A lot of skills are out of age, to make people each day weak... 

I really think we need changes in 1st nd 2nd skills to be more usefull... 

is my opinion and is  only opinion.... 

I care about my firt MMORPG and I see that its wrong... and very important to possible future noobs for the game ... Rag is a game that u're less tan a bug when start, and the 2nd and 3rd skills need to be updated... except asura strike ofcourse 

[3025140119203620510]

I agree. The BB fixed 500ms delay should be removed and put a fixed delay in accordance to the animation delay as suggested. 

The BB nerf and other RK physical attack delay has effectively killed off the physical RK altogether, rendering it obsolete in PvM due extremely low damage output. They are still viable in PvP though. Physical RK are simply horrible even with the sickest gears comparing to DB RK or other physical classes. Only thing going for it is it's not limited to Fire and Water element. 

 

Tao Gunka and Kiel cards also have killed off DB RK as well.  Basically they had to nerf non-mvp RK to the oblivion because these cards are just simply overpowered. Non-tao DB RK is very slave dependent and its damage output is pathetic in PvM comparing to those of Ranger and Gene even with Stringer and Wandy, unless you're wearing Tao puking out 200k DB. 

RK is just a horrible PvM class in general period without MvPs, except maybe bio4 with bunch of slaves they are still somewhat mediocre. 

Edited by 3025140119203620510, 19 May 2016 - 03:26 AM.

[Ashuckel]

what the....