167 replies to this topic

[Xellie]

I wrote an entire topic on the subject, go read it instead of derailing this one. 

 

To compete doesn't mean one has to trashtalk.

[TheLeafs]

WoE attendence topics are fine ? Then I can mention that:

 

Attendance would be so much better if the GMs were able to implement something that catered to an entire community ! 

 

[Xellie]

I know how to increase our attendance but I'm not allowed to express that sentiment or discuss the things that would do so.

[Demeris]

The best way to get attendance is to get people to start playing RO, whether it's Renewal or Classic

[Xellie]

The best way to get attendance is to get people to start playing RO, whether it's Renewal or Classic

 

Nobody knows this better than I do.

[rojoky113]

I don't really play anymore and vh didn't woe or supply obviously, so I was missing some lended gear and potting straws half the time so my personal opinion of my degree of enjoyment of this format isn't well formed, but I was there to mess around some at least and the gvging in nid 3 looked relatively gentlemanly to me. One of our 3 was allowed to sit down and watch, and my running around messing with people was complained about as "griefing our GvGs" and I was told they asked me to go away. Which I promptly ignored cause lol it's woe I think two large hostile guilds can put on big boy pants and deal with fighting and killing a lone champ. Exact details though who knows, not me at least. Just my impression.


Don't get me wrong, I have always been a strong proponent of adding a third no mvp/god woe. I think at this stage of classics troubled life it's necessary as a stepping stone for new players/guilds, and there's also of course a subset of the community that is in love with distilled even playing field RO moba gvging, and it is a different meta that can be fun to play around in. I'm just saying that if the future of classic is removing all high level gear, standing in a hallway, shaking hands and gvging over and over for an hour every weekend with no competition or motivation other than which group stands in a square and clicks on the other square a little better in a 15 year old MMO I'm kinda happy to quit. This ain't no MLG here lmao.

Ragnarok, and woe, has always been a game about a lot more than that in terms of gameplay and competition, and this is an official server so that's the game I came here to play. As long as this becomes an entirely seperate field of play that supplements the current game and server that's fine, like I said it can do good in a lot of ways and is useful as part of a plan to keep classic viable with many issues the staff have let develop here imo. If it encroaches too much on replacing "real" woe and is a signal of the direction of the server in terms of the kind of players and game you want to move it toward, then eh. I didn't put a year and a half of time, effort and money into my character and my guild playing an official server for the staff to say "lol nevermind" and leave it behind, so in that case I'd likely be leaving it behind instead.

A lot more needs to change outside of adding a 3rd woe to save classic at this point though.

Edited by rojoky113, 21 June 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[Xellie]

I don't really play anymore and vh didn't woe or supply obviously, so I was missing some lended gear and potting straws half the time so my personal opinion of my degree of enjoyment of this format isn't well formed, but I was there to mess around some at least and the gvging in nid 3 looked relatively gentlemanly to me. One of our 3 was allowed to sit down and watch, and my running around messing with people was complained about as "griefing our GvGs" and I was told they asked me to go away. Which I promptly ignored cause lol it's woe I think two large hostile guilds can put on big boy pants and deal with fighting and killing a lone champ. Exact details though who knows, not me at least. Just my impression.


Don't get me wrong, I have always been a strong proponent of adding a third no mvp/god woe. I think at this stage of classics troubled life it's necessary as a stepping stone for new players/guilds, and there's also of course a subset of the community that is in love with distilled even playing field RO moba gvging, and it is a different meta that can be fun to play around in. I'm just saying that if the future of classic is removing all high level gear, standing in a hallway, shaking hands and gvging over and over for an hour every weekend with no competition or motivation other than which group stands in a square and clicks on the other square a little better in a 15 year old MMO I'm kinda happy to quit. This ain't no MLG here lmao.

Ragnarok, and woe, has always been a game about a lot more than that in terms of gameplay and competition, and this is an official server so that's the game I came here to play. As long as this becomes an entirely seperate field of play that supplements the current game and server that's fine, like I said it can do good in a lot of ways and is useful as part of a plan to keep classic viable with many issues the staff have let develop here imo. If it encroaches too much on replacing "real" woe and is a signal of the direction of the server in terms of the kind of players and game you want to move it toward, then eh. I didn't put a year and a half of time, effort and money into my character and my guild playing an official server for the staff to say "lol nevermind" and leave it behind, so in that case I'd likely be leaving it behind instead.

A lot more needs to change outside of adding a 3rd woe to save classic at this point though.

 

pretty much exactly. I've always said there should be a third woe for it too (though if anyone thinks that putting new players vs moba-style-pserver-tryhards is a good idea that's another problem) - so if it's a new part of the game to be  that I personally have little/no interest in taking part in, why should I be present for the testing? (that's aimed at all the cajoling come play!) I have no intention to be there for the "real" thing.

 

However, I still feel strongly that there needs to be content for the other players too. Many people "lost" WoE for this month to allow testing to the new scenario for a subset of players. This does not mean DONT DO IT! It means "don't forget the rest of the playerbase / natural iRO playerbase"
 

[Xandyzor]

A Third Woe will be interessant but withou reward (Tresure Box) and acess the Guild Dungeon. Since is not possible use God/MVP.

 

Just castle with a Emperium.

 

Is just a Fun WoE without God/MVP right? That it.

[TheLeafs]

A Third Woe will be interessant but withou reward (Tresure Box) and acess the Guild Dungeon. Since is not possible use God/MVP.

 

Just castle with a Emperium.

 

Is just a Fun WoE without God/MVP right? That it.

 

seems fair

[ShinRyoma]

A Third Woe will be interessant but withou reward (Tresure Box) and acess the Guild Dungeon. Since is not possible use God/MVP.

Just castle with a Emperium.

Is just a Fun WoE without God/MVP right? That it.

Not fair. Of course it should not have same rewards as regular woe, like god parts and ect. But at least resources to help the guilds that take part keep taking part.
Plus I strongly believe its already past time the 1.0 guild dungeons are acessible for everyone. Too many castles, too few guilds, just let everyone get their gsbs in peace.

[rojoky113]

A Third Woe will be interessant but withou reward (Tresure Box) and acess the Guild Dungeon. Since is not possible use God/MVP.

Just castle with a Emperium.

Is just a Fun WoE without God/MVP right? That it.

Half of me agrees with this. The other half, well..

This is where I'm not so sure. I talked about this before when the discussion of a third woe was directed towards new players and guilds and giving them a stepping stone into big boy "real" woe. As the number of god items in established guilds continues to grow (at absurd classic loki rates), the gap that new guilds face continues to become more and more daunting. They need a lot more than just some practice fighting without gods/mvps to be able to catch up or compete in any conceivable way in the context of high level gear.

Basically, if you want them to have any chance of catching up or competing at all, why do you want them to have to fight guilds with a dozen+ god items and a dozen+ mvp cards, plus more experience, directly in order to make the items they need to do so? It's a situation where the gap will continue to grow wider and wider, and more and more hopeless to overcome. Impossible, maybe not. But it's such an uphill battle, what new guild would want to? Especially with how unappealing the rest of the servers condition is.

I personally think god creation needs a total overhaul. God pieces drop like candy, its absurd how easy it is to make a god set. Seals and questing is the only real hurdle for guilds to create, but a system where god creation is deterred solely by having to slog through boring, pointless repetitive busy work is a pretty awful one. Seal power 2 is only the start of the problems with god creation currently.

My opinion, current god pieces inundating the server need to be phased out or discarded first. God parts should be one of the most difficult steps, they should drop only from castles at a certain decently high econ and even then pretty rarely. Competing for pieces in woe should be the main part of the process and the part that slows down the rate of god creation, the part that is fun and that people care about and that creates competition. The questing, including seals and not just the creation dungeon, needs to be overhauled to be less crazy obnoxious so it's not the reason people don't want to make items because they can't stand repetive mind numbing tedium. You can still use them to control the rate of god creation; make it so you can only open each seal at a time controlled basis, or creation events happen at a predetermined time, or tie them to woe. Just change it so people aren't dissuaded from playing for and competing over god creation because of seal questing hell. Being willing to put up with that system shouldn't be the barrier to entry for that part of the game. Creating gods should be hard and take time, but it should be feasible and something people feel motivated to actually play for.

And then after that, maybe the system should be made so that some or all of it can be achieved through mvpless/godless woe in some way. Because there should still be competition against them, but at least they can compete on a more even playing field to get their items to start catching up instead of fighting 2-3 hugely established guilds directly that are going to stomp any hope of them ever making their own gods further and further into the ground. If you want new players/guilds to step up into real big boy woe, you need to give them a realistic path to getting there.

Just some thoughts.

[teresias]

Not fair. Of course it should not have same rewards as regular woe, like god parts and ect. But at least resources to help the guilds that take part keep taking part.
Plus I strongly believe its already past time the 1.0 guild dungeons are acessible for everyone. Too many castles, too few guilds, just let everyone get their gsbs in peace.

I agree with Xandy's idea, just emp, without treasure and GD.

I tend to disagree with yours. Thing is, WoE 1 GDs include the npc for god creation. So, only those who are castle owners should have the privilege. If they can make restrictions or exclusivity regarding that then the idea of GD Being FFA would be fair. But if not, no.

As for supply hunting, I do hope they implement another channel of getting GSBs, like from the suggestions before, put in turn ins or something. <>

[Xandyzor]

Not fair. Of course it should not have same rewards as regular woe, like god parts and ect. But at least resources to help the guilds that take part keep taking part.
Plus I strongly believe its already past time the 1.0 guild dungeons are acessible for everyone. Too many castles, too few guilds, just let everyone get their gsbs in peace.

 

Have a lot of ways to start/help a guild. Is not some noob drop from Tresure will do something. No way. Have many ways to make zenny.

 

This WoE Model is for who wanna play without/dont have God/MVP. Thats It. Only for it.

 

Look Choobs: http://choobs.org/classicwoe/index . Have some small guild and they got your castle.

 

About GSB, me and another players (dont remind the name) suggest drop in anothers monsters like Ice Titan, Juperos and monsters which need some party or better equips to hunt.

 

GD is for Guild got your castle. Change this i dont agree.

 

PS: How many times o gave Guild for some players to drops your GSB. Have that consciousness too...

[Xellie]

The idea of creation being separate of WoE is actually beneficial for people not having to fight jerks with gods to do their creation. The pieces are trade-able and do sell on the market. Technically you only have to capture a castle once ever to make a god and "catch up". (and it doesnt matter which one and you don't have to econ! - in the past you didn't even need to own a castle; just have GD access.)

 

Just some food for thought. There's always talk about tying it more directly to the results of WoE, but that creates a "strongest become stronger" scenario. The separation via non woe related questing is much better for new guilds.

 

There's so much talk about what is better for these start ups, but everyone immediately then goes into talking about how they should have to fight players not only with equipment, but established teams and experience - in my opinion, the latter two, teams with synergy and experience will always trump any items. Thus the idea that they do not have to actually ever fight a big guild in order to get the item... just makes more sense.

 

Tho you don't have to listen to what I just said, I've been through the system on an older server in exactly that situation. I managed to make my gods. It was only two, but it happened. The GMs flirted with an idea of econ being required to push the seals, forcing  my baby guild into an alliance and the difference between my starter guild and the guild with 8 megs and 7 gtbs was enormous. And stressful and intimidating and belittling. On Classic tho, that option isn't even good because there aren't enough guilds to fuel it.

 

Third WoE need not have those kinds of rewards. Creating more of this stuff to saturate the server more and then further ruin full powered WoE is silly.

[Xandyzor]

Half of me agrees with this. The other half, well..

This is where I'm not so sure. I talked about this before when the discussion of a third woe was directed towards new players and guilds and giving them a stepping stone into big boy "real" woe. As the number of god items in established guilds continues to grow (at absurd classic loki rates), the gap that new guilds face continues to become more and more daunting. They need a lot more than just some practice fighting without gods/mvps to be able to catch up or compete in any conceivable way in the context of high level gear.

Basically, if you want them to have any chance of catching up or competing at all, why do you want them to have to fight guilds with a dozen+ god items and a dozen+ mvp cards, plus more experience, directly in order to make the items they need to do so? It's a situation where the gap will continue to grow wider and wider, and more and more hopeless to overcome. Impossible, maybe not. But it's such an uphill battle, what new guild would want to? Especially with how unappealing the rest of the servers condition is.

I personally think god creation needs a total overhaul. God pieces drop like candy, its absurd how easy it is to make a god set. Seals and questing is the only real hurdle for guilds to create, but a system where god creation is deterred solely by having to slog through boring, pointless repetitive busy work is a pretty awful one. Seal power 2 is only the start of the problems with god creation currently.

My opinion, current god pieces inundating the server need to be phased out or discarded first. God parts should be one of the most difficult steps, they should drop only from castles at a certain decently high econ and even then pretty rarely. Competing for pieces in woe should be the main part of the process and the part that slows down the rate of god creation, the part that is fun and that people care about and that creates competition. The questing, including seals and not just the creation dungeon, needs to be overhauled to be less crazy obnoxious so it's not the reason people don't want to make items because they can't stand repetive mind numbing tedium. You can still use them to control the rate of god creation; make it so you can only open each seal at a time controlled basis, or creation events happen at a predetermined time, or tie them to woe. Just change it so people aren't dissuaded from playing for and competing over god creation because of seal questing hell. Being willing to put up with that system shouldn't be the barrier to entry for that part of the game. Creating gods should be hard and take time, but it should be feasible and something people feel motivated to actually play for.

And then after that, maybe the system should be made so that some or all of it can be achieved through mvpless/godless woe in some way. Because there should still be competition against them, but at least they can compete on a more even playing field to get their items to start catching up instead of fighting 2-3 hugely established guilds directly that are going to stomp any hope of them ever making their own gods further and further into the ground. If you want new players/guilds to step up into real big boy woe, you need to give them a realistic path to getting there.

Just some thoughts.

 

I agree with you in terms.

 

In the real server scenario, lower the God Peaces Drop rate will just discourage new guild to try to catch your Gods because the Old Guilds got your Gods/Pieces with current rate. Easy current rate.

 

This is a ideia must be matured.

[ShinRyoma]

Have a lot of ways to start/help a guild. Is not some noob drop from Tresure will do something. No way. Have many ways to make zenny.

 

This WoE Model is for who wanna play without/dont have God/MVP. Thats It. Only for it.

 

Look Choobs: http://choobs.org/classicwoe/index . Have some small guild and they got your castle.

 

About GSB, me and another players (dont remind the name) suggest drop in anothers monsters like Ice Titan, Juperos and monsters which need some party or better equips to hunt.

 

GD is for Guild got your castle. Change this i dont agree.

 

PS: How many times o gave Guild for some players to drops your GSB. Have that consciousness too...

I'm talking more about supplies to have them keep woeing, not to help them get zeny/items.

But yeah, if that gsb turn in idea that you, xellie and a bunch of other people proposed dozen times in different ways, I take away the open gd idea. And it would help new people find someone doing something in maps. Even party with them. Im assuming there's some sort of coding wall for implementing this because its a good idea and was proposed countless times from different people lol.

And yes, as far as I remember most of the community were always Edan-level kind in offering guild spots for people to hunt gsbs, I myself have invited a few people regardless of woe rivalry back then. That's a good thing I think, given our current conditions.

[Xandyzor]

I'm talking more about supplies to have them keep woeing, not to help them get zeny/items.

But yeah, if that gsb turn in idea that you, xellie and a bunch of other people proposed dozen times in different ways, I take away the open gd idea. And it would help new people find someone doing something in maps. Even party with them. Im assuming there's some sort of coding wall for implementing this because its a good idea and was proposed countless times from different people lol.

And yes, as far as I remember most of the community were always Edan-level kind in offering guild spots for people to hunt gsbs, I myself have invited a few people regardless of woe rivalry back then. That's a good thing I think, given our current conditions.

 

Yup!

 

I suggested more TI like Orc Dungeon, Geffen Tower, Payon Cave, Ant Hell, Beach Dungeon and others and others places. Force new players go in some different places to get your exp and taking advantage, dropping with stuffs.

 

Include GSB how rewards will be nice too. 1 per TI is the must to prevented that use Bots.

 

Edit: Not only noob players but ID3 and Juperos will be nice.

Edited by Xandyzor, 22 June 2016 - 06:24 AM.

[ShinRyoma]

I tend to disagree with yours. Thing is, WoE 1 GDs include the npc for god creation. So, only those who are castle owners should have the privilege. If they can make restrictions or exclusivity regarding that then the idea of GD Being FFA would be fair. But if not, no.
 

 

Yes there's the god creation npc. Didn't consider it. It makes the whole open gd a bad idea.

 

As for supply hunting, I do hope they implement another channel of getting GSBs, like from the suggestions before, put in turn ins or something. But hey, you always can go to bio 3 or better yet why not just ask for guild tag from your friends who belong to a guild that owns a woe1 castle? From your previous posts and claims, I gather you have a lot. 

 

As I stated in previous post, giving tags was never a problem and instead of trying to fight pointless GD wars I always invited people, regardless of where they come from to encourage competition. Now the last part was really unnecessary and uncalled for, since the point of this discussion is not to find ways to ME, specifically, to drop gsbs. I sincerely hope the moderators take a look in this because that's the kind of flame that starts bigger things. If you can't positively contribute, stick to upvoting the adults.

[Xellie]

Open GD would not be a bad thing if it had other / better rewards. I would love an open pvp map. I miss GD wars.

I would kill for this again, literally.

 

small:

 

big:

 

[rojoky113]

EDIT: wow this thread blew up while I was typing this, this was a response to xellies post right after my last. i will edit quote in for clarity when im off mobile at work.

Right now we have a strongest get stronger anyway, because its either


A) willing to do dozens of hours of tedious pointless questing over and over? Congrats, you are valhalla heres your dozens of god items

or

Q) aren't down with wasting so much of your time doing something so extremely unfun and boring when playing a game is something you should enjoy and have fun doing that doesn't make you wanna jump off a cliff? Congrats, heres your 0-2 god items, have fun getting frustrated and quitting this "game".


And its not just about god creation. You more than anyone understand when I say that the way things are, woe does little to promote competition or meaning. Who cares if the castle breaks, who cares if we econ or not, who cares how big or small our guild is and how we do. The server is so saturated with god parts and other rewards that there is nothing fostering and motivating competition outside of "lets gvg lol". If you don't want the server down that path, you need to change things so there is meaning to defending, econing, breaking, etc.

Gods are the ultimate carrot. Every person and guild wants them. God creation system needs to accomplish four things:


1) Be realistically accessable to new players. New players and guilds need a realistic path to making their items and being able to compete at a higher level.

2) Actively slow down and control the rate of god creation, both serverwide and if possible even by guild. Classic cannot sustain the god creation rates it has right now. Unless your idea of balance is literally every player having every god item on them to use, because realistically right now VH will literally be putting megs on their warpers in the inn by the time other guilds create enough gods to compare. Low hurdles just means the ones trying pull further ahead, not that the ones not trying will be able to catch up at all. You can't delete what's made but that's no reason not to change course and do damage control.

3) Foster competition and meaning in woe. People need more than pride or just-for-fun-who-cares to motivate them in woe. Players need to care about defending, attacking, strategizing, building econ, burning opponent econ, etc.

One of my most prominent woe memories was defending our nid econ that couldn't afford even one more break, in order to get my bryn made (or else who knows when our/my next chance would be months later). That woe had meaning and motivation. The game me and you want to play NEEDS more of that feeling to sustain itself.

4) Be fun and enjoyable. This is a game. People play it to have fun. Yeah you gotta put in some work and grinding sometimes, this is a korean MMO at the end of the day. But it has to be something people are willing to do. Mvping is actually pretty fun, even if you have to grind doing it a ton to ever get a card. Seal questing though? I can't imagine anyone likes doing it. This is a game, if you want people to play it and compete you need them to want to. The current creation system is more likely to drive players and guilds to quit from frustration, due to having to choose mind numbingly painful creation or not being able to compete in woe.



Right now, the current creation pretty much only sorta manages number 1, in the way you say. It's not good enough, if you want classic to have a future it needs to change imo. That's the bigger point I am trying to get at.

Edited by rojoky113, 22 June 2016 - 07:00 AM.

[Xellie]

You're using a lot of words to describe a lot of things that start up guilds simply can't do.

 

iirc we stole that econ from less qualified guilds and didn't build it. We abused the stagnant server to bypass the defensive stage. It wasn't particularly engaging.

 

1) Be realistically accessable to new players. New players and guilds need a realistic path to making their items and being able to compete at a higher level.

 

3) Foster competition and meaning in woe. People need more than pride or just-for-fun-who-cares to motivate them in woe. Players need to care about defending, attacking, strategizing, building econ, burning opponent econ, etc.

 

?????????

 

They can't compete against us and make their items. In the same breath you talk about fostering competition but how they can't stand against these people. WoE 3 isn't going to solve that either.

 

As someone who never quested AND made every excuse to never quest, you highly overestimate the problem with questing. It's a long term thing, you're not supposed to sit down and zerg it. A guild can get 10 people to do 10 quests each over months - it's not a problem. They take about 5 mins each. And actually the quests aren't horrible... they're daunting and confusing the first time. The second time you read the story. The third time you race your guildmates to do it fastest. Just because you can't sit down and spend 5 mins once or twice a week talking to 10 NPCs for your guild doesn't mean that every guild or person has that problem. Go read my other topic on player types and think about it.

 

So you didn't play back then but there was other systems that solved these problems, mainly the WPS system which would solve everything. It created competition and helped with creation. BUT WE CAN ALL JUST IGNORE THAT AND KEEP TALKING ABOUT MAKING GUILDS THAT CANT COMPETE COMPETE.

 

There is no realistic "hand them stuff" and "make them fight us" scenario. It doesn't work that way. The idea of the creation being 99% pvm allows them to bypass the bs idea of having to fight us. The quests could be a little more fun and the creation process itself certainly is too hard for current guilds imo... but we've had this discussion on this forum a million times. But a complete overhaul forcing newbie guilds to econ vs us or even people who have 10+ years more experience of woeing 7 times a week without the items? It's not realistic or reasonable at all!

 

Obligatory tho : gods don't counter gods. We need more defensive gear, probably via pvm/mvp to counteract gods. Something that is made without forcing direct and impossible conflicts.

 

On a side note: I have an econ castle. I wish to defend it one more week tho I have already hit that goal.

Edited by Xellie, 22 June 2016 - 06:54 AM.

[Undying]

Third woe would honestly be catering to pserver players who we would attract and work on converting to iRO players through different means. First objective is attraction.

I think they should close 1 of the duplicate castles on each woe 2 realm and hive those 2 castles open (only) for a thrird woe. Woe need rewards and those rewards should NOT be gods, literally just a few gsb.

I get it that we are official players and pserver players have a different mindset/play style. Sadly, I do believe that any real growth of population depends on them. Get them to come here via the third woe. Get them to be competitive and want to "be the best" and force them to participate in other aspects of the game if they want to succeed in "being the best". Should promote some additional population growth and activity.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it a last ditch effort in obtaining a sizable amount of people for the population problem? I sadly think so.

[Xellie]

Third woe would honestly be catering to pserver players who we would attract and work on converting to iRO players through different means. First objective is attraction.

I think they should close 1 of the duplicate castles on each woe 2 realm and hive those 2 castles open (only) for a thrird woe. Woe need rewards and those rewards should NOT be gods, literally just a few gsb.

I get it that we are official players and pserver players have a different mindset/play style. Sadly, I do believe that any real growth of population depends on them. Get them to come here via the third woe. Get them to be competitive and want to "be the best" and force them to participate in other aspects of the game if they want to succeed in "being the best". Should promote some additional population growth and activity.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it a last ditch effort in obtaining a sizable amount of people for the population problem? I sadly think so.

 

That's exactly it. I see it as an area that will be mostly quarantined toward people who enjoy pserverstyle-moba play and have more experience in the realm than anyone. This isn't a "newbie friendly" WoE. Not even in the slightest. If anything, I think it will be much more intense than regular WoE.

 

I will build a great wall. And nobody does walls better than me (unless they have a macro for it). Very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall around WoE TE and I will have pserver players pay for that wall.

 

It's a good idea and I'm not against it in the slightest, I just can't keep pushing enough that other types of players are going to need catering to also. We need an actual playerbase of casualites and grinders too. As they (like our moba friends will) develop relationships with players, they will branch out in to other aspects of the game.

 

Edited by Xellie, 22 June 2016 - 07:11 AM.

[ShinRyoma]

That's exactly it. I see it as an area that will be mostly quarantined toward people who enjoy pserverstyle-moba play and have more experience in the realm than anyone. This isn't a "newbie friendly" WoE. Not even in the slightest. If anything, I think it will be much more intense than regular WoE.

 

 

I think we also need to consider that this type of woe can help new-ish guilds LEARN (even though the game is old and almost no one is totally new). There is not much to learn when you wipe to 2 BBs of a single dude or a fbh mbk sg in a precast. There's a lot to learn when you fight an organized group of people that have access to similar/same items that you have. Why am I losing? What are they doing different? What am I doing that they don't? 

It's a very positive aspect that is being overlooked, imho.

[Xellie]

I think we also need to consider that this type of woe can help new-ish guilds LEARN (even though the game is old and almost no one is totally new). There is not much to learn when you wipe to 2 BBs of a single dude or a fbh mbk sg in a precast. There's a lot to learn when you fight an organized group of people that have access to similar/same items that you have. Why am I losing? What are they doing different? What am I doing that they don't? 

It's a very positive aspect that is being overlooked, imho.

 

No, there are some things you can never learn if you die too fast.

 

Frankly guilds like mine need objectives that keep us away from guilds like that. I should not be having to make agreements and concessions with every small guild worried about their future. This is how you solve it. Not by taking things away, but by adding content and goals.

 

You forget what these players we're talking about attracting do. They have access to things that the average iro starter wouldn't even imagine exists. (what's up greyworld)

Some gear for WoE without mvp/gods are cash shop only/extremely hard to get (+9 EMH? illegally farmed ET TSOD at upgrade? statted diab robes?) Even eliminating the gods/mvps there's still huuuuuge gear discrepancies. Especially when its cash shop based bs!

 

The average player, btw, is more likely to blame hacks and cheats than dissect their gameplay down to the teamwork and command level. Which ultimately will be the determining factor. That and who has the most bomb materials and ygg items.