167 replies to this topic

[teresias]

EDIT: wow this thread blew up while I was typing this, this was a response to xellies post right after my last. i will edit quote in for clarity when im off mobile at work.

Right now we have a strongest get stronger anyway, because its either


A) willing to do dozens of hours of tedious pointless questing over and over? Congrats, you are valhalla heres your dozens of god items

or

Q) aren't down with wasting so much of your time doing something so extremely unfun and boring when playing a game is something you should enjoy and have fun doing that doesn't make you wanna jump off a cliff? Congrats, heres your 0-2 god items, have fun getting frustrated and quitting this "game".


...

4) Be fun and enjoyable. This is a game. People play it to have fun. Yeah you gotta put in some work and grinding sometimes, this is a korean MMO at the end of the day. But it has to be something people are willing to do. Mvping is actually pretty fun, even if you have to grind doing it a ton to ever get a card. Seal questing though? I can't imagine anyone likes doing it. This is a game, if you want people to play it and compete you need them to want to. The current creation system is more likely to drive players and guilds to quit from frustration, due to having to choose mind numbingly painful creation or not being able to compete in woe.


Right now, the current creation pretty much only sorta manages number 1, in the way you say. It's not good enough, if you want classic to have a future it needs to change imo. That's the bigger point I am trying to get at.

 

If there were more of the player types that enjoy questing / helping their guild then god creation process especially seal questing would be much more viable.  - so if the server had also more content for these player base, guilds would have more of them as members and it wouldn't be a problem. 

 

You have to understand that MMORPGs contain a vast range of different people with different interests.  Not all are just WoE/MVP oriented.  So things that might not enjoyable for one, would be fun for some.  I believe it has been highlighted in this thread: https://forums.warpp...e/#entry2471442

 

Thing is, Valhalla manages because Xellie was able to find diverse player types.  Not just relying on recruiting people to fill in her WoE squad.  There are those who quietly do the PvM things for the guild cos we like it and we like helping.  Seal questing, supply farming, TKMing for guild characters, etc.

 

Imo, Classic will survive and have a brighter future if it becomes a more dynamic environment that caters to all its player base.
 

Edited by teresias, 22 June 2016 - 07:21 AM.

[Xellie]

tbh i laugh at how incompatible pure pvpers and pvmers actually are, yet they benefit heavily. But asking a pvper to quest and I may as well have just asked them to kill their first born lol

[ShinRyoma]

I'd kill my first born but only when he comes of age and can wield the same weapons/armor than me so he can put up a good fight. hue.

[Xellie]

I'd kill my first born but only when he comes of age and can wield the same weapons/armor than me so he can put up a good fight. hue.

 

Nothing wrong with that. Survival of the fittest y'know.

 

Also, I do have you blocked on skype but I have to say, there is a thing that you've been saying in the past that I'm nodding and laughing and agreeing with. I don't really want to touch on it in public but man... I think you know LOL

[Undying]

But asking a pvper to quest and I may as well have just asked them to kill their first born lol

This ^. 100% lol

[rojoky113]

If there were more of the player types that enjoy questing / helping their guild then god creation process especially seal questing would be much more viable. - so if the server had also more content for these player base, guilds would have more of them as members and it wouldn't be a problem.

You have to understand that MMORPGs contain a vast range of different people with different interests. Not all are just WoE/MVP oriented. So things that might not enjoyable for one, would be fun for some. I believe it has been highlighted in this thread: https://forums.warpp...e/#entry2471442

Thing is, Valhalla manages because Xellie was able to find diverse player types. Not just relying on recruiting people to fill in her WoE squad. There are those who quietly do the PvM things for the guild cos we like it and we like helping. Seal questing, supply farming, TKMing for guild characters, etc.

Imo, Classic will survive and have a brighter future if it becomes a more dynamic environment that caters to all its player base.

I completely agree, and if you want to say that other guilds failures when it comes to god creation is not just the fault of the mechanics but also their attitude, guild organization, players they recruit, etc. then I agree with that too. On that front xellie and VH have simply won, straight up. And if there was more players and more guilds like VH we wouldn't have this issue. Thats the kind of game I want to play in, too. Thats why I'm in this guild.

VH and its members are playing ragnarok the MMO, in its original multifaceted spirit more or less. The problem is not enough other people are. I am just looking at the state of the server, its population, the state of woe, whos playing, whos quit, who might still be enticed to play and stay, and trying to be realistic. The status quo has not worked. My brainstorming isn't perfect obviously, but I'm trying to point out issues that need to be addressed and considered.

Edited by rojoky113, 22 June 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[ShinRyoma]

I have no clue. PM it to me lel.

[Xellie]

I completely agree, and if you want to say that other guilds failures when it comes to god creation is not just the fault of the mechanics but also their attitude, guild organization, players they recruit, etc. then I agree with that too. On that front xellie and VH have simply won, straight up. And if there was more players and more guilds like VH we wouldn't have this issue. Thats the kind of game I want to play in, too. Thats why I'm in this guild.

I am just looking at the state of the server, its population, the state of woe, whos playing, whos quit, who might still be enticed to play and stay, and trying to be realistic. The status quo has not worked. My brainstorming isn't perfect obviously, but I'm trying to point out issues that need to be addressed and considered.

 

I think you need to think less about what you personally feel would work as god questing and more about how to help those around you who enjoy that kind of thing. I mean... no the system isn't perfect - but it's their best shot. It may well be why WoE 2 has no startups. (my assessment is that you as a player wouldn't really have the time or patience for the creation in any form if it wasn't a tournament - and I'm not saying this offensively. That's just my professional opinion as your guildleader =P And it's the only situation in which I would feel it was fair in asking you to assist. )

 

WoE is fed by every other aspect of gameplay. Economy, questing, levelling... EVERYTHING. Help others first and they will help you.

 

I'm using Valhalla as a microcosm of the server attitude. The difference in opinion you, I and aux are expressing right now is just our natural player attitude (believe me I will stop at no ends to achieve a visible goal, within predefined boundaries to create a challenge).

 

WoE is shyte. Woe 2 is specifically shyte. WoE 1 is okay, its fun because its more of a disorganized melee atm which is more suited to the learners feeling their chars and abilities. And that's fine! The god creation process will be easy peasy if we incorporate more pvmers to play/bribe/guilt trip.

 

Otherwise yeah valhalla's pvmers hardcore it 2~3 people at a time. derp.

Edited by Xellie, 22 June 2016 - 07:41 AM.

[Undying]

I completely agree, and if you want to say that other guilds failures when it comes to god creation is not just the fault of the mechanics but also their attitude, guild organization, players they recruit, etc. then I agree with that too. On that front xellie and VH have simply won, straight up. And if there was more players and more guilds like VH we wouldn't have this issue. Thats the kind of game I want to play in, too. Thats why I'm in this guild.

VH and its members are playing ragnarok the MMO. The problem is not enough other people are. I am just looking at the state of the server, its population, the state of woe, whos playing, whos quit, who might still be enticed to play and stay, and trying to be realistic. The status quo has not worked. My brainstorming isn't perfect obviously, but I'm trying to point out issues that need to be addressed and considered.

VH has a really healthy balance of players and goals, it is impressive.

It's not that people don't want to play the MMO. It's more like people don't have time for it. Similar thing with gods. Make a huge sacrifice for time with no guarantee that it will pay off. It's disheartening to have a god item creation stolen from you after doing the work, for anyone who has experienced this.

Also another point. You have a very active leader who seems to do great organization and spent the time to set up the guild so it functions the way it does now. On the contrary, who the duck wants to be a guild leader and take on all of that responsibility, time investment, frustration, ect? It becomes a downward trend when you also add on the fact that the servers population is so low. being a guild leader is a full time job and there is no compensation for it.

[Xellie]

Can I just say guildleading is total ass when you have an imbalance of pvpers to pvmers? You can't level, you can't make money, you can't make gods, you can't even socialize.

 

 

[rojoky113]

I think you need to think less about what you personally feel would work as god questing and more about how to help those around you who enjoy that kind of thing. I mean... no the system isn't perfect - but it's their best shot. It may well be why WoE 2 has no startups. (my assessment is that you as a player wouldn't really have the time or patience for the creation in any form if it wasn't a tournament - and I'm not saying this offensively. That's just my professional opinion as your guildleader =P And it's the only situation in which I would feel it was fair in asking you to assist. )

WoE is fed by every other aspect of gameplay. Economy, questing, levelling... EVERYTHING. Help others first and they will help you.

I'm using Valhalla as a microcosm of the server attitude. The difference in opinion you, I and aux are expressing right now is just our natural player attitude (believe me I will stop at no ends to achieve a visible goal, within predefined boundaries to create a challenge).

WoE is shyte. Woe 2 is specifically shyte. WoE 1 is okay, its fun because its more of a disorganized melee atm which is more suited to the learners feeling their chars and abilities. And that's fine! The god creation process will be easy peasy if we incorporate more pvmers to play/bribe/guilt trip.

Otherwise yeah valhalla's pvmers hardcore it 2~3 people at a time. derp.

I would enjoy a tournament haha, but I would also see the realistic flaw in such a system.

I think you maybe might peg me as slightly more pvp/killer oriented than I am, because I do like to achieve and pvm as well. I spent months and months mvping for both fun and cards (well, A card as it ended up). I spent a lot of time working on random small gear upgrades not just because I wanted to woe better but also as a personal achievement in developing the character I identify with. I still even enjoy job change quests. And I love exploring and leveling in different areas (there's a reason I always pushed for a janeway and turn in system overhaul that incentivized going off to many of ragnaroks cool areas that sadly nobody goes to anymore instead of skipping 70 levels of leveling and playing the game).

So yes obviously I like pvp and woe and they are my main motivators for still playing long term, but I still very much love the rest of ragnarok. And even then, I enjoy them in a have fun and try your best (in that order) sort of way, not a I have to win by any means and I want to beat everyone and prove I'm the best full killer sort of way. There's a reason I run with VH and not some other groups in classic.

Woe really is ragnaroks crown jewel though, and even for people who like pvm aspects I feel they do eventually get stale. The game is a decade and a half old after all. But with enough confidence in and enjoyment of the server people can stay into it. Quests though, they can be fun once or twice but I can't do them over and over. I think questing is probably the least fun and well-aging aspect of RO, and you're right that getting me to want to do it is like pulling teeth. And unfortunately it seems like most players feel the same looking at the patterns of god creation on classic. And I honestly really doubt at this point that this game and server have both the means and remaining time available to draw enough players of the kind that would balance out the current system. That's where my opinion is coming from, at least.

Woe seems to be what the majority of the players and the server revolves around, and I doubt that's going to change significantly at this point. And most players who want gods are woe and pvp oriented and want them for that reason primarily. That is why my suggestions generally are to involve woe more in creations. Otherwise you get one guild/group willing to make dozens of gods while the rest of the server isn't and we end up with such an imbalance.

Edited by rojoky113, 22 June 2016 - 01:06 PM.

[Xellie]

Then perhaps guilds should be more rewarding to their pvmers - we do need them for supplies and levels after all.

Every change on the server has served the purpose of WoE and PVP and focused on the increased participation of those.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results

 

None of us would have problems doing the quests if there were more of us to do them, plain and simple.

 

I don't really want to get into why certain guilds didn't do the quests - some expected a change to make creation faster and were waiting on it - among other reasons, but I will point out that those guilds have as much of a problem organizing things in pvm and woe as they do for creation in terms of attendance. Even if you look at okolnir, the difference in creation rates is exactly the same between guilds.

 

Somewhere down near the bottom of the forum is the WPS archives.... take a look and have a read. Tell me what you think.

[Xandyzor]

Third woe would honestly be catering to pserver players who we would attract and work on converting to iRO players through different means. First objective is attraction.

I think they should close 1 of the duplicate castles on each woe 2 realm and hive those 2 castles open (only) for a thrird woe. Woe need rewards and those rewards should NOT be gods, literally just a few gsb.

I get it that we are official players and pserver players have a different mindset/play style. Sadly, I do believe that any real growth of population depends on them. Get them to come here via the third woe. Get them to be competitive and want to "be the best" and force them to participate in other aspects of the game if they want to succeed in "being the best". Should promote some additional population growth and activity.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it a last ditch effort in obtaining a sizable amount of people for the population problem? I sadly think so.

 

Create a WoE without Gods/MVP (Maybe without Tranclass too, i would love s2) certainly will bring more players. I heard from several BR who play Pirate Server and the sames dont play in iRO because the numbers of Gods/MVP. How they said, will take a long time to get close to compete.

We need more guilds and players. I really dont care if the sames will play into Rampage, Valhalla, Aurora or create a new guild. I just want the server to became more populous.

Which day, time and how will works this woe, we need discuss more.

 

A WoE this Type will move the server economy that is a crap actually. Nothing sell...

 

And no rewards from this castle. We have a WoE with rewards already.

[KingOfJokerz]

Why take the reward out of the more balanced fight (No Gods/MvPs)? 'For fun' will only draw so many people, why waste supplies for no benefit?

[xSwain]

RO is dead. Players won't come back just because we have a no-godly/mvp cards on WoEs. Gravity got a well populated server in TW because they hyped people again with a new server, new events, new promises.

 

In iRO we still have no-delay players, unlimited stuff for some guilds, lag, fps drop, etc. RO guilds are old, and recall 4x~5x players needs more than WoE restrictions.

Edited by xSwain, 26 June 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[Xellie]

 'For fun'

 

it's a game
 

[ShinRyoma]

it's a game
 

 

If only people understood that... 

[KingOfJokerz]

Oh, we're playing a game? I didn't know.

 

My statement still stands now that I know we're playing a game.

[Xellie]

...

 

So the idea of a "test" for a future WoE setting, one assumes is to make sure that

a/ everything works as intended

b/ things are enjoyable

 

If neither a/ nor /b happens, that doesn't create the intended scenario and would drive people away. The very nature of the event (and timing being so abrupt) was extremely off-putting to a lot of players (and don't make any personal shots here, 9/10 times I feel invincible on a bg set only scholar with almost zero supply) meaning that standard and persistent mmorpg style competition wasn't possible.

 

Furthermore, I believe the prizes of the new type of WoE weren't decided yet. Thus it wouldn't make sense to feed god items into a dying server - when competition isn't viable or people are likely to log off because things aren't working as intended. For example I know someone today found a rather extreme bug in WoE 2 today that we thought wasn't possible.

 

Players are people and people tend to be turned away by uncertainty.

 

Regardless, I find the remaining OCA treasure to be rather terrible - on a server where we must create new content because of extreme saturation, driving away players and allowing others to farm saturated gear even more seems pretty ridiculous. So whatever, you're lucky I'm not on the dev team because you bet I would have replaced those OCAs and yggs with tribal solidarity re-sprited to flick the bird. Well, no, I would have replaced them with bg tokens or GSB crates, or random high gear box (valk/diab armor) - but you guys hate my ideas so pay this no attention. I won't bother telling Campitor stuff like that because y'all would rally against it based on the avatar, but I didn't see anyone else making viable suggestions.

 

The kinds of people this sort of WoE setup is aimed at, do not want to make gods, or farm treasure. They just want to log in and fight in a "fairer" scenario. Different people want different things, but you were made well aware of this (unless ofc you didn't read the topics and posts about it) before engaging in WoE, so why complain now?

 

The idea that some people just want to play for fun without it being against stacked gear is actually extremely valid. I just don't believe it's valid because of certain non mvp/non god/non boss items (ex: LFH needs a nerf or something because holy jesus for a cash shop item its broken af) - even if it's not something I consider to be "WoE" it is something that needs to be tested by the people who want it (not my guild, actually) and also they need to see how many players it appeals/draws in.

 

if I want moba contents, I'll play an RWC server or join a tournament. Half-assing it doesn't cut it in my eyes. Arbitrarily cutting out equipment that anyone can earn just because one side didn't bother is pretty silly... But taking out the majority and putting everyone with the exact same stuff (rwc style), along with equalizing teams is completely logical.

 

...

It makes perfect sense to me

Edited by VModCinnamon, 27 June 2016 - 02:02 AM.
597 letters have been omitted.

[Xellie]

Just tired of her ignoring my reports and being told I'm not allowed to complain about her when she does - then getting modded for trivial things over and over.

 

Spoiler

lol be quiet!  I probably have more experience modding than you - and a lot of it relies on building a relationship of mutual respect with core contributors. A mod can literally delete anything without fear of repercussion if they're fair and respectful. Unfortunately for WP this isn't the case with this particular individual and believe me I'm not the only one that notices that she guns for certain people.

 

case in point : The number of people allowed to make fun of Valhalla for not wanting to / participating in WoE and talking us down for it. Not a single post was edited.

 

Anyway I'm done now : I said my piece, it'll be gone soon. I have to go get ready for my vacation and find time to tell campitor about the amazing exploits people discovered on the WoE 2 maps and complain about missed patches causing a rare drop to crash a users' vanilla client because of the game's poor method of handling things.  We tested it, I handed him the item in a trade and it crashed him - it would be very nice to have those restored to the user as they are EXCEPTIONALLY rare and its 100% not his fault.

Edited by Xellie, 27 June 2016 - 05:39 AM.

[TheLeafs]

"No fun allowed, just because." I recall her saying ?

 

Anyways, when the WP team start caring about their game then we can talk about "suggesting" things to them on how to make the server better. In the meantime, just lay back and watch the ship slowly sink!

 

Honestly though, we are all here complaining about this event woe blaming each others for either god saturation or cheat/harass/ZERG while the problem that lays is not the event woe or any of that. It is the incompetence of the individuals handling these issues and their successive decisions that led us here. (post gonna get deleted but w/e at least THEY'll see it. Wake up WP this ain't communism, freedom of expression is a thing now ya know! )

 

One of the many reasons people don't join this server is not god saturation or no reward woes, it's the fact that they know how the GMs & Co. deal with the issues of this server. now How do they know? just see the -_- people post/complain about. just smiling and telling the community/players that you care DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO we need proof and action rather than 3 lines in a patch notes thread promising projects that either never end-up happening or when they actually happen, they are a mess fest.

 

PEACE !  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Undying]

Staffs thoughts on making a viable 3rd woe?

[rojoky113]

JFC its always so overly dramatic in here, geez.

Seems sorta strange to me how some people are all for "balancing" the fight by removing gear that people continually put time/effort/money into playing the server and working for (well, that some work for, others seem to prefer paypaling off $600 for their mvp cards or $1000 for their god items but surely thats close enough amirite), but then they defend their right to team up with 75% of the server to farm castles even after its removal, as if that's balanced, competitive or well earned. Guess it's only the unbalanced parts of the game they don't feel like dealing with or utilizing that need to be nerfed huh.

Frankly if you really want a "balanced" fight alliances and guild numbers need to be limited (disabling alliances doesn't make much difference when you can merge under a 56 man cap with classics tiny pop), though yes I am aware they currently can't limit guild size due to technical limitations. I can't do anything but shake my head and laugh a little when 4 guilds need to ally and recall dozens of people around to fight off, roka's brief cameos aside, one haphazard party numbering half a dozen at most (a lot of times less) breaking down barricades with a crit sinx lol.

Woe is supposed to be a competition between guilds (one that is about the sum of all your and your guilds efforts from the entirety of the game and not just hallway gvg meta - that includes efforts and rewards from mvping and god creation), not teaming up with everyone else for free castle farming. One glance at the swath of empty castles and the number of woe active guilds sitting at only around half a dozen is more than enough to see how anti-competitive alliances are on classic. I mean I think they should be gone in real woe too but in a woe format where you've removed gods and mvps, there's literally no excuse left for them to remain imo.

Edited by rojoky113, 27 June 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[Aannunaki]

Tmw someone who sells god items and MVPs complains about said items being used against them.

[allygator1]

Staffs thoughts on making a viable 3rd woe?

 

i think a pre-renewal schedule where both woe 1 and woe 2 castles are available would be interesting.  Maybe 1 realm of woe 1 + 1 realm of woe 2.  Disable 2 or 3 castles each as well limit the amount of cat and mouse that people can play to purposely troll other people.