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Shadow Items Thoughts and a Statement


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#76 donghyun83

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 03:57 AM

To address the fact that this set is meant to bring a semblance of balance for classes who have been left behind, make it useable only by performers, mechanics, and chasers. Problem solved. It doesn't break pvm anymore, it simply brings parity between the blessed classes and the wretched ones. Would you really put a Thanatos card in a bow of storms? I mean, I would. But not many reasonable people would. And Havenn's GX can whittle down Awakened Ferre before his EDP expires. I have developed carpal tunnel spamming double strafe and SR before I kill that thing. Though I have a selfish reason for proposing this, this would certainly balance things. It also unlocks builds deemed ridiculous like Vulcan Arm leveling. Just my 2 zenys.
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#77 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 04:04 AM

Well guess what, items will keep getting better, there will be new weapons, new armor and new content. Rejecting it just because our damages will increase is unreasonable. And again this will add something new to the meta instead of just having Genes/RKs/GX as mainstream too OP chars in PVM. And will the comparative damage remain the same? not really, AB of Genes and DB of RKs which are too overpowered wont be affected by this. This set would give room to battle ABs, dancers, mechas and other classes. Im sure many would want to try the set. Also, more shadow gears are coming, i doubt if everyone is defaulting this one on PVM when class specific shadow gears come


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#78 VModCinnamon

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 04:10 AM

A friendly reminder to keep the discussion within topic. Proactive posts that serve no purpose to the thread will be removed. Thank you.


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#79 fuyuchen

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 04:23 AM

implement the set with a certain proc rate seems the most reasonable so far. it won't totally take the place of mvp cards. but still gives great power for a short time. do the same to infinity shadow set and so on seems fine as well.


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#80 Kadelia

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 04:31 AM

Something that is bugging me is that people are not doing any math and are instead knee-jerking to this.

 

Back in the day, we had defense piercing weapons that were not an MVP card. Many of them.

 

An example

 

We'll use Caesar's Sword as an example. http://db.irowiki.or...item-info/1134/

  • This is a level 4 weapon with 140 attack. it has a bonus of 25% damage against plants and pierces their defense.
  • When this item was implemented the defense formula routinely reduced the damage of incoming attacks anywhere from 55% to 70% when combating end-game monsters.

A competitive one-handed sword otherwise would have been a 3-carded Saber (115 atk, lv 3), or a few years later, Twin Edge of Nacht Sieger (160 atk lv 4).

  • Thee card slots guaranteed around 92% increase in damage.
  1. If we do some rough math here, we'd see that against a 55 DEF enemy, every 1000 damage you'd do would be reduced to 450, and then increased by 92%, totaling 864 damage.
  2. meanwhile, with the def-piercing weapon, we're more keen to do around 1250 damage per 1000 initial damage, due to not being reduced by def, then further increased 25% by the effect of the weapon.

What did we learn? Well, the def-piercing weapon is clearly better than using a weapon you've created yourself with cards. The only "compromise" we're making here is that we have to craft via an NPC quest the rare item, and we're limited to fighting one specific race. In return, we get about 45% more damage than normal against that race in exchange for only being able to do that damage against that one race, and only if that race has a high defense value to begin with. Lower defense enemies will yield lower results from the weapon.

 

Now let's come forward to renewal.

  • In renewal defense is a much softer reduction on damage. Monsters routinely have no more than 25% to 35% damage reduction from defense.
  • In renewal, most sought after PVM skills already ignore defense (cart cannon, dragon's breath, etc.)
  • The shadow slot routinely gives around 10-15% overall damage for characters, from a variety of ATK, %atk, %rangeatk, dex/str, and %race bonuses.
  • Shadow layer is intended by kRO to be a required part of the character strength/balance and no an extra bonus. The "free" gears still add about ~20 atk on average which amounts to a few percent more damage, but its true the push toward kafra shop introduction into the market is lame. You can buy these off players for zeny though.

The item tradeoff suggested here is

  • Remove 10% damage incentive from existing gear
  • Replace with def piercing gear for a specific race.

The calculation example

  1. Since we're looking at around 30% reduction here, we're seeing about 700 damage for every base 1000. With the shadow layer we'd be seeing about 770 for every 1000 we'd normally do.
  2. With the defense piercing equipment we've got around 1000 damage for every 1000 we'd normally do.

What did we learn? Well, the def-piercing shadow layer is clearly better than using a damage/atk generating layer of shadow equip. The only "compromise" we're making here is that we have to obtain the expensive item and then dump cash into upgrading it, to get this effect. A we're limited to fighting one specific race. In return, we get about 30% more damage than normal against that race in exchange for only being able to do that damage against that one race, and only if that race has a higher defense value to begin with. Lower defense enemies will yield lower results from the equip.

 

 

tl;dr:

 

2005:

Gravity: Trade your normal weapon for an expensive one that only works on a specific race, and do about 45% more damage!
Players: okay.

 

2016:

Gravity: Trade your normal shadow gears for an expensive one that only works on a specific race, and do about 30% more damage!

Players: omg so op!!!! gravity suxxxdevil!!1


Edited by Kadelia, 10 June 2016 - 04:32 AM.

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#81 cory

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 04:46 AM

[...]

 

That's a reasonable conclusion.  Everyone did jump the bandwagon against this box.  WP did a poor presentation to these new shadow sets by throwing them in all in one box.  Not sure how that passed simple logic...?

 

But the main problem players have with these sets:

 

  • They bypass MVP defense.

You're also forgeting how easy it is to over-upgrade during a refinement event.  This would completely bypass a specific races' defense including MVPs.  This is game-breaking.

Change the over-upgrade effects to an additional 10% bypass, and all would be OK.


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#82 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:01 AM

That's a reasonable conclusion.  Everyone did jump the bandwagon against this box.  WP did a poor presentation to these new shadow sets by throwing them in all in one box.  Not sure how that passed simple logic...?

 

But the main problem players have with these sets:

 

  • They bypass MVP defense.

You're also forgeting how easy it is to over-upgrade during a refinement event.  This would completely bypass a specific races' defense including MVPs.  This is game-breaking.

Change the over-upgrade effects to an additional 10% bypass, and all would be OK.

FYI the item he mentioned bypasses MVP defense. Ice pick also bypasses defense. And what game breaking are you talking about? Are you looking solely at the effect and not the classes using it? Even if a mecha uses this set, their DPS wouldnt be even half of the Gene's AB or DB of RK (and this set would affect these skills) .  So where's the imbalance? Is it really the set that the iRO should be removing?


Edited by CadburyChocolate, 10 June 2016 - 05:02 AM.

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#83 Ashuckel

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:02 AM

If we are to talk back in the day, in pre renewal(wich shouldnt be something to consider much since different mechanics), while def ignoring weapons had advantage on high def enemies, they had disadvantages on lower def ones, and on medium def ones they would do about the same as a properly carded gear. Making a proper [4] gear with 2x race 2x element would give you 96% more damage towards that target. Ignoring the defense of a targets whose reduces physical damage by 50% means 100% more damage.
Only few of the def ignoring weapons from back then had as well a damage increment on X monster. It was almost a complete tradeoff, or you ignore defense, or you get additional %.
The when a samurai card was inserted in one of these [4] weapons, it just flat out win over any defense ignoring weapon, as you were sacrificing a small amount of % to gain a huge non reduced damage.

But when this is put as shadow gear, when there are no shadow gears that make up for enough damage tradeoff when not being used ( the most you will lose is physical set). There's no tradeoff in this case, is just a huge increase in damage against everything.
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#84 Kadelia

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:10 AM

4 slot weapons were good because the cards affected your status attack.

What you say doesn't hold to increased scrutiny. When look at it you're dropping a 20% watk card or 10% range card that's increasing your overall damage about 10% to use samurai card. Conversely with shadow layer you're losing about 10% damage from phys set for penetration set. Its a comparable tradeoff.

Edit: various typos

Edited by Kadelia, 10 June 2016 - 05:13 AM.

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#85 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:18 AM

Well there will be better trade offs in the future with the upcoming sets too. This shadow set is also completely situational since you need to consider the def of enemy and the races in the map compared to the all around phys set so implement this gear already and move on to the next!


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#86 cory

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:28 AM

FYI the item he mentioned bypasses MVP defense. Ice pick also bypasses defense. And what game breaking are you talking about?

 

Ice pick is a dagger that suffers from size penalties, especially MVPs that the majority are Large.

 

Also its a weapon with an entirely different effect.

 

It's class specific.

 

Conversely,

 

 

  • Anyone can wear the shadow sets.
  • The only sacrifice is it taking slots under the costume tab.
     
  • There's no penalty for set switching.  Theoretically, you can carry all the sets for a specific race with no regards to weight.
     
  • You'll have a "Samurai Spector card" effect for all weapons you possess with no sacrifice to a card slot.
     
  • It mimics an MVP card with all of the above.

 

How is this even an arguable point?


Edited by cory, 10 June 2016 - 05:29 AM.

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#87 Ashuckel

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:29 AM

You were comparing weapons that mostly dont have card slots, with old pre renew formula, wich was a tradeoff (def ignoring vs added % dmg) against a case in wich you will have both(shadow set+ your regular weapons).
And physical set is not a "10% damage increase", this is a case to case basis, dependant on class, gears, skills, etc.

Back to my example against brianarea, the fact that you both ignore defense and keep that card slot, pushes this set more close to a thana than samurai(also works on bosses). In that case, removing 1 of the Familiar cards from the setup for a thana, and keep physical set, is only about 9% stronger than using penetration set+ that card slot.
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#88 Necrohealiac

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:30 AM

it's even better than SS since SS doesn't work on MVPs. also, does the shadow set even have the health drawbacks of SS card? if it doesn't that's even more OP.
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#89 cory

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:35 AM

It only has the -666HP/10 seconds effect.  Unequiping provides no sacrifice.  Unless the item description on divine pride, and the official website is wrong.

 

also sometimes I think Kadela just likes to play devil's advocate for the heck of it.


Edited by cory, 10 June 2016 - 05:36 AM.

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#90 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:36 AM

it's even better than SS since SS doesn't work on MVPs. also, does the shadow set even have the health drawbacks of SS card? if it doesn't that's even more OP.

The set has health drawbacks and SS works on players, the set does not. Again, check the classes that will be using it


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#91 Toxn

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:47 AM

If you seriously want to buff classes that "otherwise can't compete" then how about actually buffing said classes? Specific skill or build shadow sets would do you a much better honor than flat out across the board brokenness. Not to mention more shadow sets to sell.
 

 

Going right off the bat and implementing the Penetration Set is the worst move possible. On kRO, the set was implemented in 2013, and never received a rerelease. Not even once. While this may seem fine and dandy because it limits it's existence, it created a much more drastic separation a few years down the line, when the players from that time benefit from it, while any new player has no way to obtain the set.

This business model allows kRO to create new shadow sets all the time, and have them still actively be bought and used. While there are many things wrong with the model, it lets them keep making money off new sets. However, in a model where gear is constantly rereleased like iROs, it creates an environment where only the absolute best gear is used. By implementing one of the best sets right off the bat, you also lose on potential future shadow set revenue while creating an oversupply of the most overpowered ones.

 


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#92 pandapants

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 06:52 AM

What effects do you want to see in future updates or item mall items?

What do you need to grow as a character?

How would you suggest this item be obtained?

 

Items than empower unusual builds, obtained from the item mall (Lucky boxes). The mainstream builds are strong enough as it is; Making items that encourage different styles of play would be interesting for players, and encourage players to spend money to obtain the new item(s). 


Edited by pandapants, 10 June 2016 - 06:52 AM.

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#93 Doomsquare

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 07:12 AM

Its Ashuckel '-'

And my gx is not dd crit, is dd da (i have a 175 dd crit gathering dust tho)

Calculated against Brianarea(or w/e the name, 1st mvp of DT, 264 def), Ice Pick+ Physical Set vs FQL+Penetration Set, with my current setup.

FQL+Penetration set does an average of 42% morw damage when +13 Eddga is not proccing, and 26% more when its proccing.
On a DD Crit setup the difference rises to 54% when not eddga, 28% when active.

If we take Drake out of FQL, it will only deal about 10% less damage than Ice Pick without proc, and deal 1% when proc is active.
If the enemy was medium or small, non Penetration Set would flat out win from the very begining(less wATK penalty).

Basically my damage will jump from 50k+ per hit to like 65k :)

 

Your comparison is showing why FQL is better than Ice pick. Other considerations are the card slots, and what's in the offhand to replace IP/FQL. 

Bad example sir.

 

Back to topic, hmm if everyone is able to buy an iPhone for 10cents, would everyone be happier? Or those whom worked hard to buy it before this be mad coz it dropped in price


Edited by Doomsquare, 10 June 2016 - 07:16 AM.

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#94 Hissis

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 07:39 AM

I wish we could get some jRO gears to actually improve the PVM ( gears that increase useless skills damage),not 'new' stuff to increase the damage of gx's,rangers,rk's,sura's,gene's (poor classes,they don't have damage :c)

 

Or at least,lock the shadows to x,y classes.


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#95 MrBrainFreeze

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 07:41 AM

Make it not work on boss type along with not on pvp/woe. Problem solved, 95% of the complaints are MvPing anyway.


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#96 Jezs69

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 07:44 AM

Make it not work on boss type along with not on pvp/woe. Problem solved, 95% of the complaints are MvPing anyway.

 

I agree except make it not work just for MVPs (I actually prefer having it work on MVPs but I'm willing to compromise).

 

Boss type should be included except MVPs.

 

I also agree on making these just for the underdog classes.

 

Also implement the Tempest Set and make it for Warlock only or any other under dog magic class. 

 

 

 

EDIT: Make it work on MVPs but ONLY for the underdog classes.
 


Edited by Jezs69, 10 June 2016 - 07:58 AM.

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#97 ROCKheir

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:13 AM

I'm all for iRO-turned-jRO stuff! 


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#98 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:15 AM

I understand hard work should be rewarded but what about people like me who only have enough time to play 1-2 hours maybe every 2-3 days? You effectively put me in the crap creek simply because you want a fairness that does not take into account for people who have also got much busier lives outside the game but still want to play when they get the time.
 
Surely there is a way we can all mutually benefit, such as put penetration set into the boxes, but drive up the cash shop price for it, im still buying regardless if the price skyrockets by 10x, is that enough of a handicap for you now? Absolutely not, we must eradicate it.
 
What are everyone elses idea's?
 
All I want is the white lady shadow gears set, healing with an equivalence to a white lady card does not make it overpowered for the healer class, considering heal is very low as is.


Invalid I can only play about roughing 3 hours or 4 a week. Yet I can still maximize my game time and get things done within gthat frame instead of asking an chatting I actually go out and lvl hunt and do other things and brew. It's all about time management which frankly some people havent learn to do that in this day and age.
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#99 Ashuckel

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:25 AM

Playing with numbers a little more

Average def of bio4 monsters is 104.
A fully geared ranger with a +13 Thanatos+ TG BxB ea3(+phys set) does less damage than one using White Knight+TG and penetration set '-'

Indeed deserves the "penetration" name
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#100 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:35 AM

And as I said in the beginning we should just ask for the kro episodes and new char like the cat and the 3rd to class and just follow jro on their balances. If we used jro balances, this mvp talk about shadow gears would cease to exist
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