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Shadow Items Thoughts and a Statement


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#101 Sewasan

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:51 AM

As i've said in my previous post, of all the MVP shadow sets, penetration set is a little different one compared to other MVP shadow sets which is a straight forward copy cat to MVP cards. People buy SS card for PVP/WOE and not for MVPing while this set will be for MVPing.

And by all means this is no way game breaking. So what would happen to the current MVP meta if this set would be introduced?

Genes' Acid Bomb, RKs Dragon Breath will still be top tier, nothing will change

DD Crit GX damage will rise if they opted to use the set though it would be situational coz of the existence of icepick,unfroshadow set, rapid pen+phys earing combo and defense consideration of the MVP. Nevertheless, it would reduce only the killing time. They can still kill what they can kill, they still cannot kill what they cant kill previously if the issue was survivability. Another one is the Katar GXes can now compete with DD Crit/DA GXes on high def MVPs.

Other jobs (Mecha,Dancer,Bard and Warlock/Sorc for the counterpart) will also have a chance to compete with the jobs mentioned above which i think is the main reason why others want this set

Also shadow sets are meant to be extension equipment, no point in disliking it now. More shadow gear will be introduced and i doubt people will stick to using this one when there will be better options for their builds.

If you are looking for near game breaking shadow set, look at the Unfrozen Shadow Set. Penetration set is far from what you are describing as game breaking, it isnt even working on PVP/WOE scenario


How this set will help magical classes? '-' and about The top tier pvm classes, there was a post long ago, gxs and rangers are The top tier solo classes from iRO, not genes and rks, the former do much better on parties tho
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#102 gorgoroth1

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:56 AM

Has Camp announce hows he gonna put those new shadow set in cash shop in the 1st place? i didn't read much...please share a link

 

My tiny brain could only imagine something similar to p.server'ish style...would you buy this box @ 2000KP?

Spoiler

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#103 Ashuckel

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:58 AM

Btw, if WP is so adamant against putting MVP cards in cash shop, how is there any logic to put something even stronger lol
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#104 beaupoem

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:04 AM

Your comparison is showing why FQL is better than Ice pick. Other considerations are the card slots, and what's in the offhand to replace IP/FQL. 

Bad example sir.

 

Back to topic, hmm if everyone is able to buy an iPhone for 10cents, would everyone be happier? Or those whom worked hard to buy it before this be mad coz it dropped in price

 

your example would be accurate if they've ALREADY been selling penetration set in kafra shop for 10k kp and now they've dropped it to 10kp

bad example sir.


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#105 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:04 AM

Is the shadow sets even really something worth talking about? Cant we just focus on something even remotely important like updates, balance patches?


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#106 Jezs69

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:11 AM

your example would be accurate if they've ALREADY been selling penetration set in kafra shop for 10k kp and now they've dropped it to 10kp

bad example sir.

 

It's an example Madam. I'm sure you get the gist of it.
 


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#107 Kusanagisama

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:13 AM

+1 to this

 

 

Nevermind then

 

And Jezs is the troll... I see...


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#108 gorgoroth1

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:16 AM

Is the shadow sets even really something worth talking about? Cant we just focus on something even remotely important like updates, balance patches?

 

I guess it does, just look at spellflow sets..950KP at cash shop

And see how crazy iRO'ians are when something is not account bound
http://ragi.al/searc...wal/spellflow/1
 


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#109 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:27 AM

I guess it does, just look at spellflow sets..950KP at cash shop

And see how crazy iRO'ians are when something is not account bound
http://ragi.al/searc...wal/spellflow/1
 

well if they can make money let them. But having a full blown out thread of a shadow costume month after month is like listening to Donald Trump talk about making america great again.  Id really wish we would have real forum posts about the state of the game with updates and make it better from the baseline up. instead of hacking into it in the middle hoping to treat the bottom


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#110 Kuroyukiii

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:28 AM

all these penetrating word made me giggled. who should we penetrate?


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#111 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:31 AM

all these penetrating word made me giggled. who should we penetrate?

the skirt in your sig lol 


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#112 Jezs69

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:31 AM

And Jezs is the troll... I see...

 

I wasn't trolling on that.

 

I actually haven't been trolling on this thread since I think this is important.

 

I really did agree with his idea on that.

 

 

EDIT: OH Wait, was that sarcasm Kusa?
 


Edited by Jezs69, 10 June 2016 - 09:34 AM.

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#113 Jezs69

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:44 AM

How this set will help magical classes? '-' and about The top tier pvm classes, there was a post long ago, gxs and rangers are The top tier solo classes from iRO, not genes and rks, the former do much better on parties tho

 

This Penetration Set set will do nothing for magical classes.

 

However I think this discussion is for implementing the penetration shadow set and the tempest shadow set.

 

So if the Penetration Set gets implemented then the Tempest set should follow.
 


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#114 cory

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:50 AM

So if the Penetration Set gets implemented then the Tempest set should follow.

 

 

If the penetration set gets implemented, what follows won't matter.  It's like destroying an Ant hill with fire, then what follows is another fire but does it matter? No, because they're all dead anyways.


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#115 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:52 AM

Honestly What about Severe rainstorm fix does anyone care bout that?


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#116 gorgoroth1

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:12 AM

well if they can make money let them. But having a full blown out thread of a shadow costume month after month is like listening to Donald Trump talk about making america great again.  Id really wish we would have real forum posts about the state of the game with updates and make it better from the baseline up. instead of hacking into it in the middle hoping to treat the bottom

 

Yeah i get the picture, any introduction of discussion should be more informative. Not just like "let's discuss this/that" majority here didn't know how to dig up new ragnarok updates. At least put link and pic about that particular items >< so ppl could understand more and give good suggestion/etc
 


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#117 shadyaftermath

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:15 AM

Here's my thoughts:
old players that have a lot of available Zeny can have a Samurai Specter card, which is 100% damage crossing against all kinds of monsters, while new, still rather need to spend a good amount of Zeny to get the set penetration against ONE RACE which would basically for leveling, may not have as crybabies are against the set ...
 
in my honest opnion: welcome set penetration.
 
sorry for bad English :v

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#118 Kusanagisama

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:16 AM

I understand hard work should be rewarded but what about people like me who only have enough time to play 1-2 hours maybe every 2-3 days? You effectively put me in the crap creek simply because you want a fairness that does not take into account for people who have also got much busier lives outside the game but still want to play when they get the time.

 

Surely there is a way we can all mutually benefit, such as put penetration set into the boxes, but drive up the cash shop price for it, im still buying regardless if the price skyrockets by 10x, is that enough of a handicap for you now? Absolutely not, we must eradicate it.

 

What are everyone elses idea's?

 

All I want is the white lady shadow gears set, healing with an equivalence to a white lady card does not make it overpowered for the healer class, considering heal is very low as is.

 

That's my senpai...

 

MMORPGs are all about time-investment. If you don't have the time to invest in a MMORPG, you should be playing a different genre of games that doesn't require as much time to achieve stuff.

 

I fail to see how this ^ differs from this v

 

do it like KRO those who cannot adapt will leave

 

Just saying.

 

Something that is bugging me is that people are not doing any math and are instead knee-jerking to this.

 

Back in the day, we had defense piercing weapons that were not an MVP card. Many of them.

 

An example

 

We'll use Caesar's Sword as an example. http://db.irowiki.or...item-info/1134/

  • This is a level 4 weapon with 140 attack. it has a bonus of 25% damage against plants and pierces their defense.
  • When this item was implemented the defense formula routinely reduced the damage of incoming attacks anywhere from 55% to 70% when combating end-game monsters.

A competitive one-handed sword otherwise would have been a 3-carded Saber (115 atk, lv 3), or a few years later, Twin Edge of Nacht Sieger (160 atk lv 4).

  • Thee card slots guaranteed around 92% increase in damage.
  1. If we do some rough math here, we'd see that against a 55 DEF enemy, every 1000 damage you'd do would be reduced to 450, and then increased by 92%, totaling 864 damage.
  2. meanwhile, with the def-piercing weapon, we're more keen to do around 1250 damage per 1000 initial damage, due to not being reduced by def, then further increased 25% by the effect of the weapon.

What did we learn? Well, the def-piercing weapon is clearly better than using a weapon you've created yourself with cards. The only "compromise" we're making here is that we have to craft via an NPC quest the rare item, and we're limited to fighting one specific race. In return, we get about 45% more damage than normal against that race in exchange for only being able to do that damage against that one race, and only if that race has a high defense value to begin with. Lower defense enemies will yield lower results from the weapon.

 

Now let's come forward to renewal.

  • In renewal defense is a much softer reduction on damage. Monsters routinely have no more than 25% to 35% damage reduction from defense.
  • In renewal, most sought after PVM skills already ignore defense (cart cannon, dragon's breath, etc.)
  • The shadow slot routinely gives around 10-15% overall damage for characters, from a variety of ATK, %atk, %rangeatk, dex/str, and %race bonuses.
  • Shadow layer is intended by kRO to be a required part of the character strength/balance and no an extra bonus. The "free" gears still add about ~20 atk on average which amounts to a few percent more damage, but its true the push toward kafra shop introduction into the market is lame. You can buy these off players for zeny though.

The item tradeoff suggested here is

  • Remove 10% damage incentive from existing gear
  • Replace with def piercing gear for a specific race.

The calculation example

  1. Since we're looking at around 30% reduction here, we're seeing about 700 damage for every base 1000. With the shadow layer we'd be seeing about 770 for every 1000 we'd normally do.
  2. With the defense piercing equipment we've got around 1000 damage for every 1000 we'd normally do.

What did we learn? Well, the def-piercing shadow layer is clearly better than using a damage/atk generating layer of shadow equip. The only "compromise" we're making here is that we have to obtain the expensive item and then dump cash into upgrading it, to get this effect. A we're limited to fighting one specific race. In return, we get about 30% more damage than normal against that race in exchange for only being able to do that damage against that one race, and only if that race has a higher defense value to begin with. Lower defense enemies will yield lower results from the equip.

 

 

tl;dr:

 

2005:

Gravity: Trade your normal weapon for an expensive one that only works on a specific race, and do about 45% more damage!
Players: okay.

 

2016:

Gravity: Trade your normal shadow gears for an expensive one that only works on a specific race, and do about 30% more damage!

Players: omg so op!!!! gravity suxxxdevil!!1

 

I tend to agree whith Kadelia in this post and in the previous one, but I think that a 100% bypass is something that can break the game. It's not just about dealing more damage, it's more about how it disfigures some monsters. For example, most Hazy Forest monsters have very high MDEF, which made that instance impossible for me until past level 140. I'm pretty much sure a GX or Ranger can do that way earlier. Dark Lord and Hybran give exorcists AB a lot of trouble due to their high MDEF. I know that this set is physical only, but the same principle applies here. They should change the +25 effect to something like +5% bypass or even +10% bypass. It would increase the damage without totally deforming the monsters design. Tough I totally agree with you that a set that buffs mechas and performers are more than welcome, the problem is that this set also buffs GXs and Rangers, which I'd say are more in need of a nerf than a buff.

 

That's a reasonable conclusion.  Everyone did jump the bandwagon against this box.  WP did a poor presentation to these new shadow sets by throwing them in all in one box.  Not sure how that passed simple logic...?

 

But the main problem players have with these sets:

 

  • They bypass MVP defense.

You're also forgeting how easy it is to over-upgrade during a refinement event.  This would completely bypass a specific races' defense including MVPs.  This is game-breaking.

Change the over-upgrade effects to an additional 10% bypass, and all would be OK.

 

I agree with the change propositions. Why we should stick with kROs items AS THEY ARE? If the players here don't like them, can't they be changed to something that will make people happy?

 

 

Btw, if WP is so adamant against putting MVP cards in cash shop, how is there any logic to put something even stronger lol

 

Can't argue with this...

 

I wasn't trolling on that.

 

I actually haven't been trolling on this thread since I think this is important.

 

I really did agree with his idea on that.

 

 

EDIT: OH Wait, was that sarcasm Kusa?

 

I was just pointing out who was real troll (not you), in opposition to who they accuse of being the troll (you). Sorry... sometimes I have trouble expressing myself properly in english.


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#119 Toxn

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:22 AM

I was just pointing out who was real troll (not you), in opposition to who they accuse of being the troll (you). Sorry... sometimes I have trouble expressing myself properly in english.

 

Really now? I don't recall ever calling Jezs a troll.


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#120 Kusanagisama

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:22 AM

Suggestion for the cash shop: The new sprites. That cool golden angel wing costume. More sprite colors (if they exist). I would love to change my Warlock's cloth color, but the options suck...

 

Suggestion for items in the game: Sunflower Boy (they come in 16.1?), Flattering Robe, and all stuff that make warlocks strong in kRO. =P


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#121 ShinobiEX3

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:28 AM

Suggestion for the cash shop: The new sprites. That cool golden angel wing costume. More sprite colors (if they exist). I would love to change my Warlock's cloth color, but the options suck...

 

Suggestion for items in the game: Sunflower Boy (they come in 16.1?), Flattering Robe, and all stuff that make warlocks strong in kRO. =P

the Golden wing costume with effects or no effects? I hope no effects and I agree with everything else than get more shadow sets. Lets retire Shadow sets for a few months and look for other things to get. I will keep saying balance patches and bug fixes first and foremost tho.


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#122 MrBrainFreeze

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:30 AM

Fix the mado mechanic party bug.


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#123 Pixelakaroxi

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:39 AM

GodPoing would've just implemented it for the sake of progress and not relying on a card from ten years ago. Btw, the shadow set only works on normal monsters.


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#124 Ashuckel

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:43 AM

GodPoing would've just implemented it for the sake of progress and not relying on a card from ten years ago. Btw, the shadow set only works on normal monsters.

Works on every monster of that race.Only the non set effect doesnt.


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#125 Pixelakaroxi

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 10:45 AM

Works on every monster of that race.Only the non set effect doesnt.

Then to be effective and useful you'd need a bunch of those weapons highly upgraded, which renders it far less powerful than perceived, or doesnt it?


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