"I SURVIVED" 2014 DBupdate. . .2016?!? - ROSE Community Chat - WarpPortal Community Forums

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

"I SURVIVED" 2014 DBupdate. . .2016?!?


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 gio2go

gio2go

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 103 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Polaris, Draconis, Arua

Posted 28 June 2016 - 01:51 PM

Can we survive 2016 updates?

 

I truly like this game.

Invested time and real money on PH Rose :( sadly it closed.

found warpportal and played again NARose.

 

yes "I Survived" the great 2014 DB update, and got the tees.

 

will I survive 2016 update?

well I got 5 "Odigos" thanks Feuer

 

i'll sincerely consider this challenge...

  grab my gear sooner than later

    and hope ROSE Survive.

 

and I like to quote Feuer who loves this game very much...

 

I don't want the game to fail, but if certain ques aren't taken then that risk will rise


Leveling needs to be fixed, now.
This update needs to be priority in terms of balance.
The community needs to take initiative in providing feedback.
The veterans and people with experience and know-how need to start support and verifying claims of imbalances.
 
but most importantly, the opinions of new players need to be taken ever more seriously.
 
"Grab you gears"... LJG
 
 

 

 


  • 2

#2 HoneyBunz

HoneyBunz

    ROSE Online Community Member for July

  • Members
  • 1428 posts
  • LocationUSA
  • Playing:ROSE Online

Posted 28 June 2016 - 03:03 PM

I guess I am just wondering where you (and other people who are complaining) were when these changes were being tested on Pegasus for months and months.  The tweaks that are possibly needed now could have been implemented with the update if people had bothered to take the time to get on Pegasus and test and give specific feedback on what still needed work. Feuer definitely did that but he is only one guy.   It's really annoying to me that some people are "shocked" at the recent changes.  Nothing to be shocked about if you spent any time on Pegasus at all (not just logging in last week to get the free back item lol).

 

There were so many posts and topics about how the game was too buff dependent. And honestly, did anyone think that +65 to all stats ever really made sense? Gaining 1 level per kill with buffs was fun for newbies yeah, but what happened when they couldn't find a cleric to buff them? So now without the restrictions on self buffs, newbies can get those skills fairly quickly because they don't need to max a passive first. This gives them the tools to level without the magical god-like buffs of a cleric. I'd say that's more of what someone brand new to the game would expect anyway. Nowhere (except maybe a high rate pserver) can you go from level 1 to level 100 in a day.  Truly if that's what someone wants, maybe we should put a max level coupon in the Item Mall for 10k points or something. Tho I am sure then people would be moaning about that as well :P

 

The addition of elements was kind of ignored with all of the crying about the bufff changes but really, elements have a huge impact, as some players who love the dungeons have been finding out. It's not "impossible" as was first thought- but you do need to figure out how to defend yourself against the elements of the bosses.  In other words, adapt to the changes and figure out how to make it work for you.  I'm not saying a boss or two might not need to be tweaked but the whole thing isn't broken just because you can't do it like you used to do it.  And again, people would have known that if they had tested on Pegasus prior to the update implementation. 

 

We got those "I survived" Tshirts because the servers were down for a week during the data base update. We don't need a tshirt for this update. Everyone just has to take a look at their stats and skills and builds and change some stuff so they can keep doing what they like to do in the game.  Then, when you've made those adjustments and added elements etc and a boss is still a big problem, present that specific evidence in constructive feedback so Genesis can review it.  Just saying it's impossible doesn't fly imo.

 

 

 

 

 


  • 2

#3 thetrangdamvn

thetrangdamvn

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1671 posts
  • LocationHanoi, Vietnam - GMT +7
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Draconis

Posted 28 June 2016 - 05:00 PM

[...] but the whole thing isn't broken just because you can't do it like you used to do it [...]

[...] Everyone just has to take a look at their stats and skills and builds and change some stuff so they can keep doing what they like to do in the game[...]

 

I agree with you.

 

I see no point mourning about these updates.

I can see that veterans barely complain or say that they would quit,

many were discouraged as they can not do what they could do before,

some don't even want to read the patch notes and keep asking for spoon feeding,

yet claim for compensation or changes.

 

Of course it's not gonna stop here, changes are always, and Gen will listen to the feedback,

and if tweaks are needed, they're definitely carried out soon.

 

And this has nothing to do with "I-SURVIVED" 2014. I was so happy the updates went safe and sound. I and my clan are still on the way to find the unique scrolls and runes, which is fun to do at the moment.


  • 1

#4 Feuer

Feuer

    They pay me to post

  • Members
  • 10958 posts
  • Twitter:@LovatianOwl
  • LocationCaves of Owlverick
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Le' Forumz

Posted 28 June 2016 - 07:43 PM

I can see that veterans barely complain or say that they would quit,

 

I'm not sure what constitutes as quitting, but as the game stands, I have nothing worth doing. And probably won't be playing for a long time. Just saying, I'm only here to see if it changes over the next month, if not, then like the rest of the people who actually quit, they just quit. They uninstall, and move on. I'm only different in the aspect that I'll wait a small period of time before doing it myself. 


  • 0

#5 HoneyBunz

HoneyBunz

    ROSE Online Community Member for July

  • Members
  • 1428 posts
  • LocationUSA
  • Playing:ROSE Online

Posted 28 June 2016 - 10:42 PM

I'm not sure what constitutes as quitting, but as the game stands, I have nothing worth doing. And probably won't be playing for a long time. Just saying, I'm only here to see if it changes over the next month, if not, then like the rest of the people who actually quit, they just quit. They uninstall, and move on. I'm only different in the aspect that I'll wait a small period of time before doing it myself. 

 

I really hope you change your mind about that, Feuer. Your insight into how and why things work the way they work is invaluable. You have such a deep knowledge of the game. It's truly inspiring and I learn something every time I read one of your posts. I've always figured that ROSE is in your blood like it is in mine and others. I really can't imagine this place without you. You know so much about so many things. And I enjoy your wit and sense of humor so please reconsider.

 

ps- And i love the back item we got for logging in on Pegasus. The colors and the design are beautiful even tho I have no clue what the name means :P

 


  • 4

#6 Cortiz

Cortiz

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1021 posts
  • LocationJunon
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Aura

Posted 29 June 2016 - 06:25 AM

All I can say is that alot of effort has been put into the game before by certain community members in terms of suggestions and idea's for patches and new content over the years.

But almost all of these idea's have been somewhat neglecte (Atleast thats what it feels like) a big exeption to costumes!

 

but what we need are more players who are willing to give feedback to improve the current game state, and not worry about some silly costume.

 

 

It's been several month's now that the classes have been so imbalanced when it comes to PvP and this should be the priority over all others.

 

Just check out the suggestion section over here:

https://forums.warpp...ls-suggestions/

 

or the class Discussions over here:

https://forums.warpp...ass-discussion/

 

:hmm:

 


  • 0

#7 Dragonlark

Dragonlark

    Technically Minded

  • Community Managers
  • 2738 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 29 June 2016 - 10:28 AM

With a big update like we just had, there is a lot of feedback to shuffle through, some of which is contradictory to other reports. 

 

Updates to skills have a big impact on that game, as such they take a lot of testing before they are ready to be implemented into the live server. The more players test and report an issue and provide feedback, and the more detailed the reports, the easier it is to implement these changes. We have had awesome players testing all of the changes to skills and stats and provide feedback, but the more players who can do so the better. 

 

 


  • 1

#8 gio2go

gio2go

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 103 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Polaris, Draconis, Arua

Posted 29 June 2016 - 08:11 PM

I guess I am just wondering where you (and other people who are complaining) were when these changes were being tested on Pegasus for months and months...

 

Everyone just has to take a look at their stats and skills and builds and change some stuff. . . , present that specific evidence in constructive feedback so Genesis can review it. 

 

Just like you, have tested things in Pegasus every now and then for many many many months, in DG and JC and some map bosses. we met for a very few times in live server and not yet in Pegasus. presenting specific evidence and feedback is what I did not do In forums but did in clan and friend chats only.

 

 

I agree with you.

 

I see no point mourning about these updates.

I can see that veterans barely complain or say that they would quit,

many were discouraged as they can not do what they could do before,

some don't even want to read the patch notes and keep asking for spoon feeding,

yet claim for compensation or changes.

 

Of course it's not gonna stop here, changes are always, and Gen will listen to the feedback,

and if tweaks are needed, they're definitely carried out soon.

 

And this has nothing to do with "I-SURVIVED" 2014. I was so happy the updates went safe and sound. I and my clan are still on the way to find the unique scrolls and runes, which is fun to do at the moment.

 

 

...Just saying, I'm only here to see if it changes over the next month, if not, then like the rest of the people who actually quit, they just quit. They uninstall, and move on. I'm only different in the aspect that I'll wait a small period of time before doing it myself. 

 

 

I really hope you change your mind about that, Feuer. Your insight into how and why things work the way they work is invaluable. You have such a deep knowledge of the game. It's truly inspiring and I learn something every time I read one of your posts. I've always figured that ROSE is in your blood. .. , And I enjoy your wit and sense of humor so please reconsider.

 

ps- And i love the back item we got for logging in on Pegasus. The colors and the design are beautiful even tho I have no clue what the name means :P

 

 

All I can say is that alot of effort has been put into the game before by certain community members in terms of suggestions and idea's for patches and new content over the years.

But almost all of these idea's have been somewhat neglected. .. Atleast thats what it feels like)

 

but what we need are more players who are willing to give feedback to improve the current game state, . . .

 

 

With a big update like we just had, there is a lot of feedback to shuffle through, some of which is contradictory to other reports. 

 

Updates to skills have a big impact on that game, as such they take a lot of testing before they are ready to be implemented into the live server. The more players test and report an issue and provide feedback, and the more detailed the reports, the easier it is to implement these changes. We have had awesome players testing all of the changes to skills and stats and provide feedback, but the more players who can do so the better. 

 

Yes it had nothing to do with the "I Survived" or any other rewards,

but in the hope that we can still have the energy to continue playing ROSE online (till we reach the seventh) :D.

One way to do that is by encouraging more players to share in game experience

through these changes and the many changes that yet to come.

 

@Dragonlark, 10cent thought, maybe you may want to consider adding ROSE to the games you play in your avatar (I know that you playROSEonline)

peace :D


  • 0

#9 Dragonlark

Dragonlark

    Technically Minded

  • Community Managers
  • 2738 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 30 June 2016 - 07:45 AM

 

 

@Dragonlark, 10cent thought, maybe you may want to consider adding ROSE to the games you play in your avatar (I know that you playROSEonline)

peace :D

 

 

I usually switch between Dragon Saga and ROSE since I'm CM for both games, but it has been awhile since switched my avatar back to ROSE.


  • 0

#10 ripaton2

ripaton2

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 9 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online

Posted 02 July 2016 - 02:41 AM

A game evolution is usually a good thing. But this one seems to make the (too few) remaining players very frustrated... Like I have read somewhere else on this forum, this update may come too late...

I always loved ROSE, since 2005. But I wondering if it's reasonable to invest time in a game where deep rules modifications ruin previous efforts...

 

Hope ROSE team won't forget that players were here because the loved ROSE for what it was.

Long live anyway.


  • 1

#11 gio2go

gio2go

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 103 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Polaris, Draconis, Arua

Posted 02 July 2016 - 03:08 AM

 

I always loved ROSE, since 2005. But I wondering if it's reasonable to invest time in a game where deep rules modifications ruin previous efforts...

 

Hope ROSE team won't forget that players were here because the loved ROSE for what it was.

 

Change can be frustrating at times, moreso when the rules of the game were changed in the middle of the game.

But if the change is for the game development, I can live with that.

 

and since like you and the others who also love this game,

I am grabbing my gears and start learning again, hahaha

 

am starting with my cleric... FS,.. BC,..  Hybrid (my preference)

 

hope to catch you guys, in-game, :)

 

@Dragonlark. . . :)

 


Edited by gio2go, 02 July 2016 - 03:09 AM.

  • 0

#12 Necromancer27

Necromancer27

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 161 posts
  • LocationCocito
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Arua

Posted 03 July 2016 - 05:14 PM

A game evolution is usually a good thing. But this one seems to make the (too few) remaining players very frustrated... Like I have read somewhere else on this forum, this update may come too late...

I always loved ROSE, since 2005. But I wondering if it's reasonable to invest time in a game where deep rules modifications ruin previous efforts...

 

Hope ROSE team won't forget that players were here because the loved ROSE for what it was.

Long live anyway.

 

+1

Do i have to start testing builds and change my gear, or do i have to wait untill they finish to balance or complete this new big patch?

Because i dont have too much time to play rose, and i really like to play it, like a way to relax, but it would be very frustating if i change all my chars (builds, equips,etc) and they completly change the game mechanic in 1 month.

Dont wanna waste time and zulie on items that going to be useless in few weeks, one of the examples would be the crit gem on the last big patch they had done.  When it was released, it cost like 7b+, and some people bought it.  About 1 weeks ago (before this new patch) you can saw it 300m and still people didnt buy it, because of the game mechanic and damage formulas changes they made.

Changes like gear become bounded or locked, clan passives,etc im ok with those changes....but change game mechanics,dmg formulas, etc, i dont agree with those, its like they change game rules in the middle of it, not too fair i guess.


  • 0

#13 HoneyBunz

HoneyBunz

    ROSE Online Community Member for July

  • Members
  • 1428 posts
  • LocationUSA
  • Playing:ROSE Online

Posted 03 July 2016 - 07:12 PM

+1

Do i have to start testing builds and change my gear, or do i have to wait untill they finish to balance or complete this new big patch?

Because i dont have too much time to play rose, and i really like to play it, like a way to relax, but it would be very frustating if i change all my chars (builds, equips,etc) and they completly change the game mechanic in 1 month.

Dont wanna waste time and zulie on items that going to be useless in few weeks, one of the examples would be the crit gem on the last big patch they had done.  When it was released, it cost like 7b+, and some people bought it.  About 1 weeks ago (before this new patch) you can saw it 300m and still people didnt buy it, because of the game mechanic and damage formulas changes they made.

Changes like gear become bounded or locked, clan passives,etc im ok with those changes....but change game mechanics,dmg formulas, etc, i dont agree with those, its like they change game rules in the middle of it, not too fair i guess.

Not sure what the inflated prices set by greedy players have to do with anything. People set prices based on what they want to get but it's the people that pay the insane prices that keep the market the way it is.  If a price seems ridiculous to me, I sure don't pay it no matter how much I might want the item. If more people did that, prices would be more reasonable.

 

As I've said before, nothing in this update should be a surprise to anyone. These changes were on Pegasus for many, many months. Any tweaking that might be necessary now could have been done already if more people had taken the time to go on Pegasus and test things. In fact, you can still log on Pegasus if you want to try some different builds without wasting your free 24 hr reset on Arua.

 

 

 

 


  • 0

#14 Feuer

Feuer

    They pay me to post

  • Members
  • 10958 posts
  • Twitter:@LovatianOwl
  • LocationCaves of Owlverick
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Le' Forumz

Posted 03 July 2016 - 10:55 PM

HBuns has a valid point but forgot one key aspect in terms of inflated prices. 

 

People with large quantities of Zulie, can offer to BUY high than anyone else, when they do that, the public becomes accustomed to the higher profit when selling to them at the higher price. This also encourages those same people who paid higher prices, to now have a 'legitimate' reason to also re-sell them even higher to retain a profit margin.

 

The problem with inflation, the entire problem, every, single, issue, would be solved by simply taking 9/10'ths of the zulie out of the market. To where NPC prices MATTER, refine costs, repairs, food even would all matter.

 

How you do that? Tax everything, with a flat %. The more zulie you try to move around, the more gets deducted.

10% Rate =

100,000 @ 10% = you lose 10k.

1,000,000,000 @ 10% = you lose 100,000,000 to taxes.

 

Tax Vending, Trade, Storage. 

People might say 'But Feuer you're stupid because people will just start charging more for stuff to make up for their losses" and that's exactly what I want. Because the more they increase their prices to 'make up' for the taxes, the more the tax takes out again. It continues to do so, until the deflation is in check from naturally generated Zulie, via drops NPCing junk and things controlled by baseline game systems. 

 

 


  • 1

#15 DoubleRose

DoubleRose

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1217 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Arua

Posted 04 July 2016 - 12:41 PM

HBuns has a valid point but forgot one key aspect in terms of inflated prices. 

 

People with large quantities of Zulie, can offer to BUY high than anyone else, when they do that, the public becomes accustomed to the higher profit when selling to them at the higher price. This also encourages those same people who paid higher prices, to now have a 'legitimate' reason to also re-sell them even higher to retain a profit margin.

 

The problem with inflation, the entire problem, every, single, issue, would be solved by simply taking 9/10'ths of the zulie out of the market. To where NPC prices MATTER, refine costs, repairs, food even would all matter.

 

How you do that? Tax everything, with a flat %. The more zulie you try to move around, the more gets deducted.

10% Rate =

100,000 @ 10% = you lose 10k.

1,000,000,000 @ 10% = you lose 100,000,000 to taxes.

 

Tax Vending, Trade, Storage. 

People might say 'But Feuer you're stupid because people will just start charging more for stuff to make up for their losses" and that's exactly what I want. Because the more they increase their prices to 'make up' for the taxes, the more the tax takes out again. It continues to do so, until the deflation is in check from naturally generated Zulie, via drops NPCing junk and things controlled by baseline game systems. 

 

 

What the game needs is more zulie out than flowing in.  Fixing that would solve the cause of inflation which I think would be a better idea than messing with the market. When you tax something you are discouraging the behavior and get less of it. You'd see less trading overall and a weaker game market.

 

You can break down pretty much all items into zulie.  When monsters die they drop zulie. When people open their premium boxes they get gold bars which are zulie. Players complete quests for zulie. Tons of things give zulie.

 

Zulie is drained from the game when players do stuff like the second job quest, refine, buy stuff from the npc, get appraisals, travel across planets, pay for events, keep ot open, people quitting so their zulie sits in an unused account, and now upgrade paradigm runes.

 

Right now the drains aren't sufficient and so the rate of change is toward increasing net zulie. I like the paradigm runes because they take zulie from people who can afford it and who are willing to pay. We need more things like this. I've noticed that the highest priced items are rare and cool costumes. Adding some appealing event costumes that end up cost billions a piece to obtain would give collectors new costumes while taking zulie out of the economy. Or if/when there are new weapons and armors make the zulie costs on upgrading them enormously. The main costs of refining top tier gear are the runes, gear, lisents, and IM runes.  Why not make zulie part of that equation?
 


  • 0

#16 HoneyBunz

HoneyBunz

    ROSE Online Community Member for July

  • Members
  • 1428 posts
  • LocationUSA
  • Playing:ROSE Online

Posted 04 July 2016 - 04:17 PM

Feuer, you're right. It's hard for me to remember just how much zulie is around. Considering the age of many accounts here, it's understandable but it does cause a big problem because too many people are able to just pay the inflated prices. A boycott of a handful of people (like me) won't make a difference at all when there are so many others who do have trillions of zulie to toss around.

 

My concern with a tax is that it would impact the newer, less wealthy players much more than it would the rich ones. And I suspect that many of the really high priced transactions are probably not done by vending anyway- they are most likely done via trades so there would be no way to tax that that I can think of.

 

We do need more zulie drains tho. I like DoubleRose's idea of special costumes (event or otherwise) that would end up costing a lot of zulie but having it paid to an npc so the zulie is truly taken out of the game. People do like to have costumes that are rare or unique.  Same thing with costume weapons. Maybe special pets (like a walking piggy bank lol)... different shop looks or some new emotes,,,the possibilities are endless.  The important thing is that these items would be really expensive and not tradable. Make them account locked so there is no chance of making a profit on them by reselling them to someone else.

 

 

 


  • 0

#17 Feuer

Feuer

    They pay me to post

  • Members
  • 10958 posts
  • Twitter:@LovatianOwl
  • LocationCaves of Owlverick
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Le' Forumz

Posted 04 July 2016 - 07:26 PM

I'm going to replace the word 'tax' with 'service charge' to hopefully avoid the anathematic perception of the word tax.

 

First off, you have to understand that the game endlessly generates zulie.

Originally, this endless generation of zulie was kept in check by simple systems like Clan upgrade costs, refine and repair costs etc. That however would only last so long, seeing as it was not expensive enough to take out as much as was being put in.

 

This service charge however would continue to take zulie out each time it traded hands. Essentially, you'd have to imagine that each time you engaged in trade, an 'invisible NPC' charged you a portion of the profits for using those services.

 

You could imagine thematically, that you have to pay a certain cost for 'permission' to vend / trade in ROSE to the game itself, because you're bypassing the NPC system that normally keeps zulie in check and removing it from the game current money pool over time.

 

Like I said, this system would actually impact new players very little. New players typically get gear from drops, NPC's, crafting and quests. They buy food from the NPC's and make zulie from drops by NPCing junk MAT's. They then move onto Dungeons and the like.

None of those processes would be affected by the service charge at all. 

 

In fact, the only way to be charged this hypothetical service charge is to engage in trading items for zulie, selling or buying items in a shop for zulie, or moving zulie between accounts. You wouldn't be charged [or rather shouldn't*] for storing zulie in your personal account storages. As thematically, you're not engaging in the market.

 

Let's use some number to more appropriately illustrate the point.

 

1: Newbie is leveling in a various map. They generate 150,000 zulie in zulie drops.

They pick up an inventory full of various blues and materials. They then sell those items to the NPC and make 1,200,000 zulie.

They then purchase some food for 340,000 zulie.

(1,200,000 + 150,000) - 340,000 = 1,010,000 zulie.

 

(amount deducted from service charges: 0)

 

2: End-game player is farming Dungeons. They generate 530,000 zulie in zulie drops.

They pick up a various load of chemicals and catalysts. They then vend those materials for 550,000,000 zulie (10% service charge: -55,000,000)

They then purchase food from a vendor for 5,000,000.

(530,000 + 550,000,000) = 550,530,000 zulie gained.

-55,000,000 + -5,000,000 = total profit: 490,530,000 zulie.

[[ Vendor charged service fee: 500,000. Total vendor profit: 4,500,000]]

 

(amount deducted from service charges: 55,000,000)

 

3: End-game marketer has a buylist with a total value of 2,950,700,250,000.

Total service cost: 295,070,025,000.

They then sell those items for 4,375,800,190,000.

The players who buy those items from the Vendor, are now charge a service charge, not the vendor, so the vendor now no longer is incurring any costs.

However, I'll still calculate it, to illustrate how much zulie is take out of the market.

 

Vendor Profit: 1,130,029,915,000.

Service Charge paid by Vendor: 295,070,025,000

Service Charge paid by Player: 437,580,019,000

Total service charges paid to system + subsequently permanently deleted from game economy: 732,650,044,000.

 

 

As you can hopefully see. This change would hardly affect newbies at all. The only aspect I didn't cover was newbies buying things like Reinforced sets, which I WILL cover right now, because I know someone will have a complaint if I don't.

Newbies buying Reinforced sets would effectively still cost the same for them. As when they buy a Reinforced set from another player or vendor, the person receiving the money will be deducted the amount, not the purchaser of the item.

 

The 'concern' comes when you think about how those newbie will be getting the money to buy them in the first place. and there's 2 options.

Option 1: They craft them themselves, either with an Artisan/Dealer they make, or if in the future Professions do come around, they can use that option.

Option 2: They sell items to other players for money, face the minor 10% charge, and then buy them.

 

Option 2 presents the issue or concern of, will they be able to make enough money to buy them, and the answer is yes. Reinforced sets are cheap, VERY, cheap. And you do not need a unique to level quickly. Even if you did, those are also incredibly cheap.

Over-time however, the service charge system will deduct more and more money from the total in-game amount, making vendors not able to maintain the 'high' prices they know now. Eventually their prices will drop, and the newbie will gain more buying power from typical actions like NPCing blues and materials. 

 

It would actually continue to affect the market until a pivotal point has been reach. That point being when the option of using NPC's to sell items to, instead of vendering them is a competitive method to making money. Once that point has been reached again, then players will have an option to voluntarily participate in vending or using the reliable NPC option. BOTH will continue to recycle the zulie out of the game, thus providing a stabilized market. 


  • 0

#18 DoubleRose

DoubleRose

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1217 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Arua

Posted 05 July 2016 - 07:20 AM

A tax by any name is still a tax and people will try to get around it. Let's think about who this tax falls on and how that would incentive changes in the economy. Player A gets a drop and sells it to Player B for 500k. Player A gets 450k and Player B gets the full drop, meaning that the tax falls entirely on the person who gets zulie in the exchange. That means it's optimal for players to buy things since the zulie is taxed but not the good. This has a couple ramifications. First, players who make zulie through gameplay are at a disadvantage compared to vendors and may alter how much they farm because of the change. In the long term more people will move to buying goods instead of supplying them which will lead to a shortage. Shops will sell goods less often and will instead make shops to buy goods so the other person has to pay the tax instead of them. The economy is already small and disincentivizing farming and making players want to flip how vending works will mean that it will become near impossible to get the items you want. This game just doesn't have the playerbase to mess with the economy without large risks. It's better to try safe and reliable approaches first and see how successful they are. I think zulie sinks are the best way to do that. Yes, the service charge is a sink and voluntary, but it it has a large economic impact while expensive costumes simply take zulie out of the game. Since the costumes are different from other popular costumes, it wouldn't really affect the market for other costumes.

 

Also, people will try to do drop trades to get around the tax which will lead to increased scamming.


  • 1

#19 Feuer

Feuer

    They pay me to post

  • Members
  • 10958 posts
  • Twitter:@LovatianOwl
  • LocationCaves of Owlverick
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Le' Forumz

Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:29 AM

Can you please explain what a zulie sink is, and how it's different from a tax or service charge. Define both, and point out the differences in result. 


  • 0

#20 DoubleRose

DoubleRose

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1217 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Arua

Posted 05 July 2016 - 12:42 PM

Can you please explain what a zulie sink is, and how it's different from a tax or service charge. Define both, and point out the differences in result. 

A zulie sink is a voluntary dump for a new thing such as the 50m a month for OT or events that you pay zulie to play games for tickets. The service charge is a tax on gameplay that is already utilized. The service charge has economic ramifications that will end up damaging the marketplace. It's a double edged sword which is why I'd prefer seeing the current sinks increased and new ones added.

 

 

Calling it now, if they did a service charge people would  complain if premium doesn't negate the charge. It will end up making things more pay to win.


  • 0

#21 Feuer

Feuer

    They pay me to post

  • Members
  • 10958 posts
  • Twitter:@LovatianOwl
  • LocationCaves of Owlverick
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Le' Forumz

Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:21 PM

Repairs are not voluntary.

Refine cost is not voluntary.

Travel Costs are not voluntary.

Ammo costs are not voluntary for ranged players.

Food costs are not voluntary [for all intensive purposes]

Storage costs are not voluntary.

 

The overwhelming majority of 'sinks' in ROSE are not voluntary, I don't know why you think they are Double, but they aren't. The issue is, they're not expensive enough, AND they're a static number. Because they're a static number, they cannot adjust to the value being moved or exchanged. A percentage tax cost DOES adjust itself automatically. It's a high cost for the rich, and a minimal cost for the poor. 

 

Also, it doesn't 'damage' the economy. And the economy isn't what we're trying to fix. What a tax system is attempting to fix is giving new players more buying power from basic activities and less from buy-to-progress mechanics and consumable selling. 

If you want a prime example of a tax system working perfectly, look at MapleStory. They implemented a tax system years ago, and their inflation almost instantly halted. They have a very odd one, but it does work.

 

Theirs operates on a sliding scale percentage.

something similar to:

1mil ~ 2mil = .5%

2mil ~ 10mil = 1%

10mil ~ 100mil = 2%

100 ~ 250mil = 3%

250mil ~ 1bil = 5% 

and so on.

 

ROSE doesn't have the coding support to do a sliding scale tax system that I know of, might be possible one day, but it is possible with some minor code support to do a flat tax rate, to instantly halt the inflation and maybe even reverse it until the effect naturally wanes itself off when tax deduction are so low, that they're negated by the natural game generation of zulie. That is the hidden power behind a percentage tax, and why it is an infinitely better option than a static 'sink'. Which btw, We've done many zulie sink events, and they simply don't work. You can ask Genesis yourself, sinks do NOT work. 


  • 0

#22 DoubleRose

DoubleRose

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1217 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Arua

Posted 06 July 2016 - 04:48 AM

In game design, any decision can end up affecting many things and have lots of unintended consequences which is why we test updates rather than say oh that looks good on paper. If you tax the marketplace some people will do things to get around it or reduce their behavior.

 

You'd like to think that Maple Story's inflation was the only thing affected by the tax, but in reality many things were. Our economy is also quite different from theirs, and so is our trade system which provides the mechanisms for how people would try to get around the tax. It's not a high tax for the rich. It's a tax on people who sell expensive items. A tax that falls on one party will change how people approach trades. Would we have to completely block the ability to drop items? I wonder at what point people who be indifferent to taking the risk of an under the table drop trade. Can I trade someone zulie and then they do a trade of the item so it's two individual exchanges and nothing is taxed? Or is gifting zulie now taxed? Part of the problem is "tax everything" is vague and dangerous, though less so in a game.

 

Think of zulie as a the water in a giant leaky barrel that is constantly being filled. The holes are the sinks and the water coming in is the zulie intake. The sinks don't work because there a couple super small holes while the hose is at full blast. To reduce the amount of water in the barrel you can reduce intake and or the amount and size of holes.

 

Right now the sinks are useless. Repairs cost 1k a point, haven't needed to buy food in years, ammo is voluntary because npcs sell free ammo and it's artisans that craft good ammo. Storage costs are not static, they change based on what the game thinks is the value of the item. The zulie sink events cost a couple million which is nothing.

 

The current intake is too high. Why does CoU spew zulie boxes everyone? Why not raise drop rates in there by 2% and get rid of the zulie drops. Now players are getting more value for doing the dungeon, but it's not in zulie form. They are getting more refines which means refines are less expensive which causes more refining which then takes more out of the game. One small change like this can fix a lot and there's bound to be lots of other instances where zulie enters the game where it shouldn't. If we add a tax we will be attacking the symptoms instead of the problem.

 

 


  • 0

#23 Feuer

Feuer

    They pay me to post

  • Members
  • 10958 posts
  • Twitter:@LovatianOwl
  • LocationCaves of Owlverick
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Le' Forumz

Posted 06 July 2016 - 07:36 AM

In game design, any decision can end up affecting many things and have lots of unintended consequences which is why we test updates rather than say oh that looks good on paper. If you tax the marketplace some people will do things to get around it or reduce their behavior.1

 

You'd like to think that Maple Story's inflation was the only thing affected by the tax, but in reality many things were. *

 

Our economy is also quite different from theirs, and so is our trade system which provides the mechanisms for how people would try to get around the tax. It's not a high tax for the rich. It's a tax on people who sell expensive items. A tax that falls on one party will change how people approach trades. Would we have to completely block the ability to drop items? I wonder at what point people who be indifferent to taking the risk of an under the table drop trade. Can I trade someone zulie and then they do a trade of the item so it's two individual exchanges and nothing is taxed? Or is gifting zulie now taxed? Part of the problem is "tax everything" is vague and dangerous, though less so in a game.

 

Think of zulie as a the water in a giant leaky barrel that is constantly being filled. The holes are the sinks and the water coming in is the zulie intake. The sinks don't work because there a couple super small holes while the hose is at full blast. To reduce the amount of water in the barrel you can reduce intake and or the amount and size of holes.

 

Right now the sinks are useless. Repairs cost 1k a point, haven't needed to buy food in years, ammo is voluntary because npcs sell free ammo and it's artisans that craft good ammo. Storage costs are not static, they change based on what the game thinks is the value of the item. The zulie sink events cost a couple million which is nothing.

 

The current intake is too high. Why does CoU spew zulie boxes everyone? Why not raise drop rates in there by 2% and get rid of the zulie drops. Now players are getting more value for doing the dungeon, but it's not in zulie form. They are getting more refines which means refines are less expensive which causes more refining which then takes more out of the game. One small change like this can fix a lot and there's bound to be lots of other instances where zulie enters the game where it shouldn't. If we add a tax we will be attacking the symptoms instead of the problem.

 

"In game design, any decision can end up affecting many things and have lots of unintended consequences which is why we test updates rather than say oh that looks good on paper. If you tax the marketplace some people will do things to get around it or reduce their behavior.1"

-

1: Yes, you test content updates, but you can't test a market affecting update, without having a large sample size participating. I highly doubt that people will log into Pegasus to vend and trade and exchange things to test it out. Not in any legitimate capacity. Also, if people want to attempt to find ways around it, then they should be allowed to do so. People do it now, they'll always do it, and it's not a problem. It just makes them business savvy. 

 

 

 

"You'd like to think that Maple Story's inflation was the only thing affected by the tax, but in reality many things were."

-

Like, what? Do you have any citations for this or is it a blanket statement to just throw in response to something you don't like as justification for it to not exist. 

 

 

 

" It's not a high tax for the rich. It's a tax on people who sell expensive items."

-

That's the same thing and you know it. You can't sell expensive items without getting them first. Unless you farm them, and if that's the case, then part of what you're going to account for it the tax. It's the very core of business, retail - cost = profit. Tax is a part of the cost.

 

 

 

" I wonder at what point people who be indifferent to taking the risk of an under the table drop trade."

-

Why would they ever do that? Trading items has no zulie being exchanged, there is nothing to tax in the first place. Unless you're talking about dropping zulie itself, which would you REALLY want to drop 10,000 x 1mil zulie crates just to pay for a single 10bil zulie item? No, that's not even a feasible option. But since you're asking about blocking dropping of things, they might actually want to make that a part of a tax system update, no more dropping zulie. 
After-all, there's no legitimate reason to do so, most of the time money is dropped it's for beggars or as an 'insult' to people who die in PvP, or to spam drops on a map to be annoying [Which was fixed anyway]. 

 

 

 

"Can I trade someone zulie and then they do a trade of the item so it's two individual exchanges and nothing is taxed1? Or is gifting zulie now taxed2? Part of the problem is "tax everything" is vague and dangerous, though less so in a game."

-

1: Yeah sure, give them a free item, and watch them run off with it. No one would do that, and if they did, they'd knowingly be taking a risk and at that point have no one to blame but themselves.

2: Yeah, giving money to someone who hasn't earned it themselves should be taxed. It's a nice gesture, but it also teaches horrible habits of begging and expecting things to be given to them freely with no effort, only making this whiny pandering to the staff about it being too hard even worse.

 

 

 

"Think of zulie as a the water in a giant leaky barrel that is constantly being filled. The holes are the sinks and the water coming in is the zulie intake. The sinks don't work because there a couple super small holes while the hose is at full blast. To reduce the amount of water in the barrel you can reduce intake and or the amount and size of holes."

-

But see, here's the problem that I feel like you didn't want to actually be illustrated. By 'reducing the inflow' to the barrel, what you're talking about is the game system generating less zulie. That only serves to hurt the new players who still rely on those systems to get a foothold in the market and start making trades. That's something that in my personal and professional opinions would never be an option.

'Increasing the size of the current holes'; refers to things like increasing repair costs [which would still hurt new players MORE than the top percentage of wealthy players] and other things like travel cost etc. You can only increase those values statically, and if you put them too high, then players entering the games economic sphere simply won't generate enough money to compensate for the repairs the incur, again, hurting only the poorest of players and not even scratching at the wealthiest. 

No, the only option is to add more small holes, that can be regulated 1 by 1 and target the exchange of currency itself. And by doing item for item trades to avoid this tax, you're essentially accepting how it would be IF the money in-game was slashed by 95% of it's current total volume. I saw that because you're no longer exchanging currency for an item, to use said currency to buy another item. Obviously currency is needed at some point in the line, which is why real world markets even still use currency, but when the amount generated by basic game activities doesn't even cover 1/1,000,000,000th of the cost to make a simple exchange of end-game material, you have a problem.

 

 

 

"Right now the sinks are useless1. Repairs cost 1k a point2, haven't needed to buy food in years3, ammo is voluntary because npcs sell free ammo4 and it's artisans that craft good ammo5. Storage costs are not static, they change based on what the game thinks is the value of the item6. The zulie sink events cost a couple million which is nothing7."

-

1: I agree.

2: Increasing these is not an option, as it's a flat rate and not a percentage of the economic* value of the item.

3: That doesn't invalidate my point at all.

4: Free ammo if you're willing to take a huge blow to base AP, it also disallows you to adjust ammo based on element of targeted enemy in the Paradigm Shift expansion. 

5: Not all ammo is crafted by Artisans. But some is, and the majority of the materials for that ammo can be gathered from simply disassembling NPC items, whose values are static as they do not adjust to the economic value of the item.

6: Again, the item storage cost is set by the game internal valuing system, NOT the economic value the market currently has. There is no difference in storing a Priest Hat compared to a Black Cross Shield. One has infinitely more economic value than the other, but the game cannot, and does not adjust for that, which is what makes it static.

7: The same can be said for ANY static sink system. You need a dynamic and responsive system which is what a tax system is. It adjusts based on the amount traded, the more traded the more deducted. Not necessarily a higher percentage mind you, but a much higher static amount is deducted.

 

 

"The current intake is too high. Why does CoU spew zulie boxes everyone1? Why not raise drop rates in there by 2% and get rid of the zulie drops2. Now players are getting more value for doing the dungeon, but it's not in zulie form.3 "

-

1: Because maybe there were plans in place to add more zulie outflows before Leonis left.

2: Because doing that forces people to use the player market BEFORE they can replenish costs incurred from doing the dungeon. Forcing them into a game of wagers and haggling.

3: Exactly. They're not getting money, they're getting things they now need to take time out of their play time to sell to make a profit to pay for costs they have. There is no difference between giving someone zulie directly, vs giving them items they must sell to get the same zulie, aside from one requiring them to invest not only the time to get the item, but to now sell the item as well. One saves time, the other wastes it. 

 

 

 

"They are getting more refines which means refines are less expensive which causes more refining which then takes more out of the game."

-

You only need so many refines to meet the demand, after that, the items lose all value. Or have we all forgotten how cheap refine materials were before the 210 + 220's came out. 

 

 

 

"One small change like this can fix a lot and there's bound to be lots of other instances where zulie enters the game where it shouldn't."

-

Like?

 

 

 

"If we add a tax we will be attacking the symptoms instead of the problem."

-

Unless we don't accept that your definition of 'the problem' is the truth. Why is the amount of money coming in the problem? How is the money not leaving when being exchanged hundreds of millions of times NOT the problem?

My issue with your solution of reducing the amount of money coming in over increasing the money going out whenever it changes hands, is that your solution only serves to make new players get less money to immediately recover their costs, but also forces them into a market they might not fully understand, ultimately costing them profits or even causing them to go bankrupt. [in zulie terms]. 

 

 

 

So, I don't accept your definition of the problem. The amount of money coming in is not the problem, because if we accept your definition of what the problem is, then we'd be condemning those who PLAY the game, over the people who potentially just trade high end items. I value effort and playing over AFKing and expected respect. 


  • 0

#24 DoubleRose

DoubleRose

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1217 posts
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Arua

Posted 06 July 2016 - 02:23 PM

My barrel model has no agenda. I merely explained how the dynamics of intake and loss work and then said that the fix is "reduce intake and or the amount and size of holes". We seem to be in agreement that more holes appears to be the best option and I think we both are trying to make the sinks fall on the right players.

 

I never said that my solution is to kill the amount of zulie coming into the game, especially for newer players. I provided one example of how zulie intake for higher level players could be slightly curtailed and now I see a reason for the zulie boxes in dungeons since they pretty much cover the sinks for the players that are willing/need to clear and pick them. I see now that it's an example of zulie coming into the game in a good way since it affects the players who need it.

 

I'm skeptical of the tax because it falls on sellers which hurts farmers. If I'm a farmer and raise my prices to compensate for the tax, then I get less business because the other farmers if the other farmers sell their goods at the old price. It's a free market and they currently aren't colluding, so it's not like all the players will get together and agree to charge 9k more for chemicals. Any way you look at it they take a loss in profits.

 

I sell essence in a shop for 90k

I get 81k and the buyer gets essence

 

They have a shop buying essence for 90k

They get the essence and I get 81k

 

I don't want farmers, the people who actually play the game, to suffer. If we're disincentive farming, why not also incentive it? I think my leaky barrel model could allow the tax system to work. It's possible to slightly increase the amount of zulie flowing into the game and also raise the amount leaving for a net loss in total zulie. Put in a 5% tax, but make drops worth more zulie and make zulie boxes give more. Since we are dealing with percentages in the tax the amount taken away in trade will exceed the increased intake from higher zulie drops. This would benefit players who pick up drops with intention of selling things to the npc. This would be more convenient for farmers who engage in the market because they'd end up with the same amount of zulie as before the tax system was put in place, but now a greater portion of it will be in zulie form. As you said with the dungeon zulie drops, they'd be saving time. Players who don't use the market at all and rely on game generated zulie for gear and food will have a straight up better time playing.


  • 0

#25 Feuer

Feuer

    They pay me to post

  • Members
  • 10958 posts
  • Twitter:@LovatianOwl
  • LocationCaves of Owlverick
  • Playing:ROSE Online
  • Server:Le' Forumz

Posted 06 July 2016 - 08:40 PM

I see where your problem really lays and I bet one modification would resolve 90% of your issues with it.

 

What if I said the tax was taken from the buyer of the item instead.

 

You sell chems for 90k.

The buyer would have to pay 90k, + 9k tax.

You get 90k, the game takes 9k and deletes it. 


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users